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This is all well and good, but I'm always going to be on the side of the person who is not in favor of indefinite imprisonment / death penalty for those that disagree with them.
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Jan 23, 2021 11:40
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indiscriminately posted:If you are a good person, to what degree is that your own doing? How much are you allowed to pat yourself on the back for your goodness? Seems to me not very much. You didn't choose the family and geography you were born into, you didn't choose your inherent gifts or your health, you don't even choose your thought process, really. Your good actions are mostly (completely) the result of circumstance. It took me a few decades to understand this but once I did it became much easier to empathize with people who suck. Yet billions - literally, billions alive this day - of human beings have gone through worse conditions and came through at the very least as better people then a single Qliever. Maybe not discredit them by the false belief that experienced societal, health (mental or otherwise) or other problems automatically make you a piece of poo poo. You mistake naivety for understanding. Otteration posted:Nuanced and alternate takes within the spectrum also exist. Infinite punishment for infinite assholes gave us wwii after wwi, after all. Except that most people who were not punished were not assholes. indiscriminately posted:How about we debate less about which people we can and can't sympathize or empathize with and instead direct our outrage ("overwhelming condemnation and opprobrium") at the corporations and platforms and demagogues that actually are responsible for producing this reality. Why not both? Ola posted:I genuinely believed the US government had alien prisoners at Area 51 when I was 13. I only sort of believed it after watching X-Files, but after being exposed to group psychology when talking about it my school mates, I was convinced. We ascribed no end of malice to the US government, merely stealing an election would be peanuts. But it obviously didn't have any deep reasoning behind it. We didn't first have a thorough understanding of the nation state, democratic governance and astrobiology, then deliberately abandon that knowledge to achieve mayhem. We didn't have that knowledge to begin with and jumped into an exciting fantasy caused by ignorance fertilized with fiction. There was no bloodshed. Any subsequent knowledge we gained moved us further from that fiction. It's not weird that dumb people believe dumb things, even if those things seem shocking to you who know better. What do you think is the best path towards building that society? Empathy, reaching out and treating shitheads like non-shitheads, or dragging them kicking and screaming to the future alongside everyone who isn't a shithead, continuing the beatings until they stop kicking the other people walking that path? Because everyone who actually improvised society went with the latter. Your path lead towards America having to deal with the swell of white supremacy every half-century or so. I vote for poo poo that improves society. I don't have to do jack poo poo for these fucks otherwise. They get the benefits either way. Anyone who welcomes them into society time and time again without punishment for their horrific actions (who do you think these people vote for?) is part of the problem, not the solution. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 12:48 on Jan 23, 2021 |
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Jan 23, 2021 12:39
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Turns out the only thing lost without Q...was us
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Jan 23, 2021 13:57
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DarkCrawler posted:
Short term, obviously put to trial and imprison everyone that has committed a crime and whatever action possible to the republicans that fanned the flames. Long term, universal health care and better access to higher education. Political action against grifting and other institutionalized corruption. Stricter laws for what the president can do in the future. Harsher penalties for violent threats, harsher consequences for social media companies that carry such threats. DarkCrawler posted:...or dragging them kicking and screaming to the future alongside everyone who isn't a shithead, continuing the beatings until they stop kicking the other people walking that path? But are all improvised societies better than the American one? The swell of white supremacy is really bad, but lots of other societies known for social harshness have them as well, and are worse in other areas . When you say "dragging them", "continuing the beatings", what do those metaphors actually entail? Say someone goes to prison for taking part in the insurrection. After a while they get out. Then what? I would have no qualms about cutting them out of my life, even if it was a relative. But if I owned a store, should I deny them access? Vandalize their car, hurt them physically?
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Jan 23, 2021 14:35
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Ola posted:Short term, obviously put to trial and imprison everyone that has committed a crime and whatever action possible to the republicans that fanned the flames. Long term, universal health care and better access to higher education. Political action against grifting and other institutionalized corruption. Stricter laws for what the president can do in the future. Harsher penalties for violent threats, harsher consequences for social media companies that carry such threats. Cool, give these people a seat and you'll never reach those things. quote:But are all improvised societies better than the American one? The swell of white supremacy is really bad, but lots of other societies known for social harshness have them as well, and are worse in other areas . No, some are worse. Often due to the same issue of unaccountability high and low. quote:When you say "dragging them", "continuing the beatings", what do those metaphors actually entail? Say someone goes to prison for taking part in the insurrection. After a while they get out. Then what? I would have no qualms about cutting them out of my life, even if it was a relative. But if I owned a store, should I deny them access? Vandalize their car, hurt them physically? Cut them off. Sever any and all ties to them. Laugh them out of the room. Openly mock and shame them. Make it unacceptable to be like them if they want to be a part of polite society and make a re-entry into that society, to those who have shat on its' every principle, be conditional on more then "My disgusting fantasies didn't come true and I feel bad, friends again?" Because recognizing a lie in one very easily proven case does not mean they have undone the awful moral failure that led into them believing in the craziest possible lie. The best thing unconditional empathy and acceptance can get out of an former Qultist will be your average Republican. What good are those for societal improvement?
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Jan 23, 2021 14:59
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Ola posted:You're not necessarily driven into fascism by poverty, but education, health care and equal opportunity are bulwarks against the desperation that can make you follow anyone who promises a magic ticket out. Truly desperate people don't have inclination to evangelise about conspiracy theories as they've got real things to worry about. Q supporters are more bored and lacking critical thinking skills, that's why it's retired boomer mom's and dad's getting complained about on r/qanoncasualties. Old enough not to need to work anymore not young enough to have grown up knowing everything on the internet is bullshit until proven otherwise and lacking the mental faculties to fact check for themselves. In the UK they announced last night they are working to introduce a new compulsory school curriculum subject that's to be politics and critical thinking specifically to counter the internal threat of conspiracy theories gaining ground in the post facts society. Getting that past the flat earthers, creationists, zealots, mentalists and other assorted head cases will be fun. It'll also have to avoid favouring whichever party is in power when it's introduced. Edit : Brexit, they are introducing the new qualification because they never want to kick themselves in the balls that hard again by floating an idea they don't think anyone would actually be stupid enough to support. Morningwoodpecker fucked around with this message at 15:30 on Jan 23, 2021 |
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Jan 23, 2021 15:12
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Is that the same one that categorized anti-capitalism as extremism to the same degree as racist and antisemitic language and terrorism?
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Jan 23, 2021 15:48
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Morningwoodpecker posted:Truly desperate people don't have inclination to evangelise about conspiracy theories as they've got real things to worry about. Q supporters are more bored and lacking critical thinking skills, that's why it's retired boomer mom's and dad's getting complained about on r/qanoncasualties. My mom dabbled in Q over the summer and a lot of her friends are still believers, and she's fairly adamant that the racial component is big as well. She reckons Obama and now Harris broke the brains of a lot of white folks who grew up with segregation, maybe patting themselves on the back for tolerating black people but never really accepting them as equals. One of her Q friends had a breakdown on inauguration day and said out loud "why does a *black* woman get to be the first one" about Kamala Harris. Apparently thinking about what she was saying shocked her into reevaluating this whole Q thing, but I wonder how many folks are out there with similar sentiments lurking under the surface.
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Jan 23, 2021 15:56
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Chomposaur posted:I wonder how many folks are out there with similar sentiments lurking under the surface. I think most of them. You can't really come out as full bore racist/fascist anymore, so people try to use conspiracies, religion, libertarianism, etc. as alternative vehicles to express and achieve what they want.
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Jan 23, 2021 16:08
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Chomposaur posted:My mom dabbled in Q over the summer and a lot of her friends are still believers, and she's fairly adamant that the racial component is big as well. She reckons Obama and now Harris broke the brains of a lot of white folks who grew up with segregation, maybe patting themselves on the back for tolerating black people but never really accepting them as equals. I'd say the racism undercurrent is huge, the people I've seen catch Q brain worms were the racist, misogynistic, pro-brexit types who suddenly also started banging on about the coming storm and Q. They'd always been like that, never seen anyone more liberally inclined catch it. It doesn't turn people to the extreme right it's of the extreme right.
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Jan 23, 2021 16:34
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We don't even know the demographics of QAnon. I suspect it has (had?) a large footprint in marginalized populations, e.g. first-generation immigrants and First Nations people. I suspect it infected all age groups, not just boomers or even mostly boomers. Ditto socioeconomic strata, ditto geography. Across demographies, the common elements are: News Corp propaganda, precisely targeted online advertising, and involvement in unmonitored communities on unregulated social media platforms. All humans can be dominated and radicalized by these forces.
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Jan 23, 2021 17:04
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I mean obviously, not all.
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Jan 23, 2021 17:35
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indiscriminately posted:We don't even know the demographics of QAnon. I suspect it has (had?) a large footprint in marginalized populations, e.g. first-generation immigrants and First Nations people. I suspect it infected all age groups, not just boomers or even mostly boomers. Ditto socioeconomic strata, ditto geography. I suspect not since they are so hostile and belligerent towards immigrants.
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Jan 23, 2021 17:41
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Morningwoodpecker posted:I suspect not since they are so hostile and belligerent towards immigrants. Yeah, some are. That doesn't mean all of them are, or even most of them are. Also, immigrants can be belligerent toward other immigrants.
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Jan 23, 2021 17:45
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indiscriminately posted:Yeah, some are. That doesn't mean all of them are, or even most of them are. Also, immigrants can be belligerent toward other immigrants. Where did you find these inclusive qultists ?.
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Jan 23, 2021 17:57
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indiscriminately posted:Yeah, some are. That doesn't mean all of them are, or even most of them are. Also, immigrants can be belligerent toward other immigrants. Most of them definitely are. https://www.vox.com/2018/8/8/17657800/qanon-reddit-conspiracy-data https://mashable.com/article/qanon-conspiracy-baby-boomers-4chan/?europe=true https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2020/10/22/qanon-poll-finds-half-trump-supporters-believe-baseless-claims/3725567001/
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Jan 23, 2021 18:09
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Morningwoodpecker posted:Where did you find these inclusive qultists ?. You're asking me to show you pro-immigration QAnon posts? No such posts exist, as you know. Why would they? QAnon is a grab bag of beliefs, there's no consensus, there's no homogeneity, there's no consistency. What most unites these people is grievance and fear, love of Trump, and hatred of the child-eating cabal that has stolen/destroyed the American (or western) dream.
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Jan 23, 2021 18:18
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History Comes Inside! posted:Unless Barron is currently the world’s tallest 12 year old this picture is way older than 4 years Trump and Melania are both quite tall, though Trump is nowhere as tall as he claims (6,3 in lifts) From personal experience Qanon did a lot of damage by spreading unchecked into ESL communities, and I'm not sure what can even be done to fix that
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Jan 23, 2021 18:18
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Q dead thread
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Jan 23, 2021 18:21
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indiscriminately posted:You're asking me to show you pro-immigration QAnon posts? No such posts exist, as you know. Why would they? QAnon is a grab bag of beliefs, there's no consensus, there's no homogeneity, there's no consistency. What most unites these people is grievance and fear, love of Trump, and hatred of the child-eating cabal that has stolen/destroyed the American (or western) dream. I mean, that was the whole idea of the Q conspiracy - they took the least controversial stance in the world of "kidnapping, torturing, murdering and eating children is bad" for a reason. It just so happened that everyone doing this was a non-supporter of Trump. While I'm sure individual sub-cults interpolated Democratic policy decisions into matching that the central pillar purposely kept that narrative as far removed from any actual real-world politics as possible to prevent such splintering or arguments.
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Jan 23, 2021 18:44
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Given it's all a retread of the protocols of the elders of Zion the antisemitic roots of it all are pretty obvious. As is the openly racist attitudes they display.
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Jan 23, 2021 19:42
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Karma Comedian posted:Q dead Let’s give it a week and see. No murders at any statehouses yet is making me more optimistic.
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Jan 23, 2021 19:47
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Karma Comedian posted:Q dead Nah...It will remain in some form or another. These people are going to (continue to) lose their poo poo the next 4 years now that we have full socialist pedophile communism running the country and, with all 3 branches of government under the child murderer's control, they'll be seeing Deep State boogeymen every where every loving day now. Wait til Trump crawls out of his septic tank and starts spewing bullshit on TV or radio somewhere. And he will. Or if/when he faces criminal charges, gets convicted in his impeachment trial or has another serious health issue. "DEEP STATE!"
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Jan 23, 2021 20:51
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https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2021/01/23/oath-keepers-capitol-riot-sidner-pkg-ac360-vpx.cnn So one of the Oath Keepers that stormed the capital is trans and that has broke my brain. How can anyone trans support trump? Does anyone have any insight into that kind of thought process?
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Jan 23, 2021 22:13
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"I'm one of the good ones, if I support them surely they will accept me."
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Jan 23, 2021 22:14
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Lammasu posted:https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2021/01/23/oath-keepers-capitol-riot-sidner-pkg-ac360-vpx.cnn How can any oppressed minority support their oppressor? Brokebrains know no boundaries.
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Jan 23, 2021 22:17
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Trans people are about 1% of the population and there were more than a hundred people there. There are unfortunately a number of racist white trans people. Dysphoria isn't something you choose.
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Jan 23, 2021 22:23
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The reality is that no one who showed up to the failed coup would have had their lives improved in any tangible way even if they succeeded at installing Trump as dictator for life at gunpoint and they were all duped into believing otherwise. It's just more obvious when we're talking about someone who isn't a cis-het white male
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Jan 23, 2021 22:33
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indiscriminately posted:We don't even know the demographics of QAnon. I suspect it has (had?) a large footprint in marginalized populations, e.g. first-generation immigrants and First Nations people. I suspect it infected all age groups, not just boomers or even mostly boomers. Ditto socioeconomic strata, ditto geography. I live in New Zealand, and I will say that Q and Q-adjacent conspiracies do have a sizable base within the Maori community here. Distrust of government is huge among these communities, probably because there were efforts to destroy these communities in the name of integration until very recently. Te Reo Maori, the Maori language, nearly died out before the 90's and still may disappear in a generation. Influenza and measles basically halved the population of Maori from late 1800's to WWII. So it is not a stretch for these people to believe that "big govt" want to finish the job with vaccines and fake pandemics. A lot of people I know got drawn in during our lockdown, I think the only reason it is not more prevalent now is that our (strict) lockdown worked and US and UK provided a great negative example, thanks guys.
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Jan 23, 2021 22:42
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Lammasu posted:https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2021/01/23/oath-keepers-capitol-riot-sidner-pkg-ac360-vpx.cnn Why would that break your brain? Maybe you should consider that trans people are people, and therefore subject to the same delusions as anyone else.
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Jan 23, 2021 22:59
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Lammasu posted:https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2021/01/23/oath-keepers-capitol-riot-sidner-pkg-ac360-vpx.cnn People are not smart and do not understand their own interests. Steven Miller is a Jewish nazi.
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Jan 23, 2021 23:20
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Authoritarianism in all of its forms is a big tent ideology until the strongman is firmly in power, at which point it drops the pretense and sheds itself of unwanted elements. See also: Stalin disappearing former allies or the Night of Long Knives
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Jan 23, 2021 23:24
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Morningwoodpecker posted:Given it's all a retread of the protocols of the elders of Zion the antisemitic roots of it all are pretty obvious. As is the openly racist attitudes they display. You'd think so, but they know to bury the reveal for newcomers and to stay below moderation radar. Probably the most depressing thing I've seen about Protocols is they were trying to figure out the origin/authorship and they weren't sure, not because they don't have any sort of parent text, but because there were multiple similar screeds all running around at the same time and they're not sure which one it came from.
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Jan 23, 2021 23:40
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That probably implies that as much that people claim that every modern conspiracy is thinly reheated Protocols with the targets barely changed, Protocols itself is probably thinly reheated remnants of a previous conspiracy work with same.
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Jan 23, 2021 23:44
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Lammasu posted:https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2021/01/23/oath-keepers-capitol-riot-sidner-pkg-ac360-vpx.cnn Gender does not determine one's level of intelligence.
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Jan 23, 2021 23:47
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Lammasu posted:https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2021/01/23/oath-keepers-capitol-riot-sidner-pkg-ac360-vpx.cnn Not really no but I don't understand gay Republicans at all either. I'm bi, which is neither here nor there I suppose, but back when I'd get out more and frequent certain social circles, it always astonished me to see how much anti Obama sentiment there was in the gay community, particularly among lesbians. It's anecdotal so it might not mean much but I remember catching a fair amount of poo poo for my tiny Obama button in mostly gay hangouts. It's tempting to say it has something to do with income levels but most of these people were as broke as I was if not more so. My ex wife's best friend was a lesbian whose partner played in an all girl band so we got out a lot in that crowd and socialized with a lot of gay women. I couldn't chalk it up to racism either given the demographics of my hangouts and the neighborhood I lived in. I've also known a couple of very well off gay men where I guess tax brackets might be a thing for them but I still don't see how that weighs out against belonging to or voting for a party or a subscribing to an ideology that thinks you are a subhuman monster spawned from Satan. Then again, I don't even think most of the fire and brimstone southern GOP really believes that poo poo either. It's just useful to pretend they do. There's also a TON of closeted "tough guy redneck" type gay men. I live in NE FL (so basically southern GA), which is a pretty red voting area and a lot of those huntin/fishin/shootin/pick up truck drivin fellas are gay as gently caress but not real comfortable with it so I guess self hate enters into it at some point? Back in the craigslist days and on gay dating sites I've met and seen my share of them, many of whom were married and getting into stuff on the down low, so maybe there's a shame element that makes them pretend and sort of over compensate so they blend in with their neighbors (?) None of that explains Q though. Not sure. I dunno. I can't speak for every non straight republican voter and this is the Q thread anyway so I'm way off topic but just telling you what I've seen on the ground and in my same sex travels. It confuses me also.
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Jan 23, 2021 23:56
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Guavanaut posted:That probably implies that as much that people claim that every modern conspiracy is thinly reheated Protocols with the targets barely changed, Protocols itself is probably thinly reheated remnants of a previous conspiracy work with same. "They're coming for your babies" has been working as a go-to line for witch hunts since they were literal witch hunts; if it ain't broke, why fix it?
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Jan 23, 2021 23:57
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OctaMurk posted:Why would that break your brain? Maybe you should consider that trans people are people, and therefore subject to the same delusions as anyone else. It's like a black person going to Klan rally. Trump has been the worst president for trans rights and thats saying a lot.
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Jan 23, 2021 23:59
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Lammasu posted:It's like a black person going to Klan rally. Trump has been the worst president for trans rights and thats saying a lot. He’s been the worst president for loving everybody and yet thousands of *everybody* still turned up. There’s nothing special about trans people that makes them immune to also being total loving idiots like anyone else.
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Jan 24, 2021 00:02
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Lammasu posted:It's like a black person going to Klan rally. Trump has been the worst president for trans rights and thats saying a lot. Key difference is that if you're white that can go a long way toward shielding you from the worst of discrimination. I'm trans and white, so to be clear im not saying white trans people are immune to discrimination, but I face a lot less than trans people of color. I can absolutely see the mindset coming from someone who thinks the reason LGBT people are discriminated is that too many "act too gay" or otherwise take it too far. They're one of the good ones, so people will respect them once we get some respectable people in power.
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Jan 24, 2021 00:16
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