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Yossarian-22 posted:I don't see any clear bona fides on M4A beyond her halfhearted endorsement of Bernie lmfao, the most revisionist history, lmfao AOC still right about all this, to the incredible frustration of the politics knowers in CSPAM. Its delicious
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Jan 25, 2021 21:24
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I feel like I should be reading all these posts but I have to admit I just keep scrolling past them
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Jan 25, 2021 21:24
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well I'm certainly not clapping
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Jan 25, 2021 21:24
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Centrist Committee posted:I feel like I should be reading all these posts but I have to admit I just keep scrolling past them Hahahah, no, no. You're doing the right thing.
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Jan 25, 2021 21:33
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tiberion02 posted:lmfao, the most revisionist history, lmfao what has she done for M4A exactly? i'll take my answer without the unearned sense of superiority please
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Jan 25, 2021 21:41
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i think independence from the democratic party is very important because to someone who interacts with politics on a very superficial level what differentiates a socialist from a liberal? this is pretty much what many conservatives already do and conflate them as one in the same and reality is there are conservatives who can be won to socialist ideas. also there needs to be a party in place that is led by the membership democratically. that is not the same thing as the american version or idea of a political party like the dems or reps, but if you believe that change happens through mass movements of the entire class, then you need organizations that empower the entire class and how can that ever happen if you dont have organizations that are led by the membership being actively involved democratically in the politics and actions of the organization? if you dont call that a "party" then its just semantics, its a party even if its another name and it is not the same as either major political party in america. a new party that is just a third version of the above is meaningless, but no one I know advocating for a new workers or socialist party imagines it in that way.
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Jan 25, 2021 21:46
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Centrist Committee posted:I feel like I should be reading all these posts but I have to admit I just keep scrolling past them I do that for like 90% of the posts in this forum and then just post in response to what I think I saw. So far so good.
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Jan 25, 2021 21:50
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christmas boots posted:I do that for like 90% of the posts in this forum and then just post in response to what I think I saw. So far so good. the way of the poster
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Jan 25, 2021 22:10
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read once, post twice
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Jan 25, 2021 22:31
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Yossarian-22 posted:no, i didn't include it because engaging with essay long posts is tedious and the fact that this temporary m4a is a dead letter which will probably die in committee without much debate is the main point the reason it seems so burdensome to you is that i'm right. that's why you can't easily come up with and dash off a reply to the stuff i've said. i'm finding this quite easy, i guess in part because i'm a fast type but also because i have a coherent mental model of the world that i can use to explain why FTV is a bad idea. all you have is some vague grievances about the tones taken by various public figures. that's why you have to do this thing where you pretend to have a goldfish memory and just bring up again, as if out of the blue, the exact same point as one i already answered in depth like two pages ago tops, after having ignored that answer in hopes it would go away quote:Again, why wouldn't it just die in committee for being an "obstruction" against a COVID-19 bill that can get broad congressional support? that's a question of publicity and political maneuver. the more politicians sanders can get on his side, and the more politicians the DSA and other pro-universal healthcare can pressure from outside, the more likely free healthcare as a constituent part of corona relief can gain traction in both the public and the legislature. then, if it gets enough traction, the record generated can form the basis for more organizing. it's basically the same reason that, while extremely disappointing, the bernie campaign wasn't actually useless either - it does give us stuff to go on going forward apropos to nothing posted:i think independence from the democratic party is very important because to someone who interacts with politics on a very superficial level what differentiates a socialist from a liberal? this is pretty much what many conservatives already do and conflate them as one in the same and reality is there are conservatives who can be won to socialist ideas. also there needs to be a party in place that is led by the membership democratically. that is not the same thing as the american version or idea of a political party like the dems or reps, but if you believe that change happens through mass movements of the entire class, then you need organizations that empower the entire class and how can that ever happen if you dont have organizations that are led by the membership being actively involved democratically in the politics and actions of the organization? if you dont call that a "party" then its just semantics, its a party even if its another name and it is not the same as either major political party in america. a new party that is just a third version of the above is meaningless, but no one I know advocating for a new workers or socialist party imagines it in that way. i think you've read me exactly backwards. i'd certainly call a disciplined mass organization that actuates working class demands with the help of a marxist analytical framework a party. i'll say it loud and i'll say it proud: i'm a marxist, and i think the working class needs a vanguard party to lead it to revolution! however, i wouldn't call the democrats or republicans "parties" in this sense. they're basically consulting firms and brand names. dem voters aren't really dem party members in any meaningful sense. the takeaway here is that even if we did have a proper vanguard party, it might find it expedient to run candidates on the dem line in the short or even medium term, because american ballot lines aren't parties. "a real third party" isn't actually a good goal to work for in and of itself because of how exceptionally fake parliamentarian politics are in the US of A. so hoping for some kind of DSA + MPP merger that creates, like, The Greens But Bigger And Better or w/e is a waste of your heart's wishing power
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Jan 25, 2021 23:27
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Ferrinus posted:the reason it seems so burdensome to you is that i'm right. that's why you can't easily come up with and dash off a reply to the stuff i've said. i'm finding this quite easy, i guess in part because i'm a fast type but also because i have a coherent mental model of the world that i can use to explain why FTV is a bad idea. all you have is some vague grievances about the tones taken by various public figures. that's why you have to do this thing where you pretend to have a goldfish memory and just bring up again, as if out of the blue, the exact same point as one i already answered in depth like two pages ago tops, after having ignored that answer in hopes it would go away lol
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Jan 25, 2021 23:29
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typing up a gigantic wall of text where you avoid actually saying anything of value doesn't just automatically refute anybody's arguments
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Jan 25, 2021 23:33
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WorkerThread posted:typing up a gigantic wall of text where you avoid actually saying anything of value doesn't just automatically refute anybody's arguments typing out a single sentence of text where you avoid saying anything of value doesn't automatically refute anybody's arguments. oh poo poo, I've owned myself. I've ran my own taint. Fuck1~
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Jan 25, 2021 23:37
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tiberion02 posted:typing out a single sentence of text where you avoid saying anything of value doesn't automatically refute anybody's arguments. i actually should stop posting in this thread; i am only curious sometimes how dsa's good boy interprets their (and the squad's) actions and plans for the future. "organize" seems like a vague word which could also easily mean "sit on our hands for the next 30 years".
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Jan 25, 2021 23:43
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WorkerThread posted:typing up a gigantic wall of text where you avoid actually saying anything of value doesn't just automatically refute anybody's arguments so it should be easy for you to quote me and point out where i've said something wrong or contentless, right? yeah, that's what i thought
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Jan 25, 2021 23:47
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guy's obsessed with the mpp
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Jan 26, 2021 00:06
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Ferrinus posted:the reason it seems so burdensome to you is that i'm right. that's why you can't easily come up with and dash off a reply to the stuff i've said. i'm finding this quite easy, i guess in part because i'm a fast type but also because i have a coherent mental model of the world Oh my lord jesus shut the gently caress up
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Jan 26, 2021 01:03
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tiberion02 posted:typing out a single sentence of text where you avoid saying anything of value doesn't automatically refute anybody's arguments. it doesn't but it can clarify why nobody wants to engage with you or listen to you pretty damned easily
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Jan 26, 2021 01:05
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Ferrinus posted:so it should be easy for you to quote me and point out where i've said something wrong or contentless, right? every time somebody tries to parse out the wrong parts of your statements you go "BWAHAHA, you iGnOred thE other thing I said DELIBERATELY, WHAT TRICKERY IS THIS  "
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Jan 26, 2021 01:08
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Yossarian-22 posted:every time somebody tries to parse out the wrong parts of your statements you go "BWAHAHA, you iGnOred thE other thing I said DELIBERATELY, WHAT TRICKERY IS THIS well that's because they do. there are copious examples. in fact i think you were the most recent one! you weren't "parsing out the wrong parts of my statement", you literally took a sentence in which i listed two things aoc did, chopped off the second thing so that only the first thing was in your quote, and then were like "oh so only one thing? seems pretty paltry." just incredibly dishonest because i'm extremely magnanimous, i continue to answer your objections with effort and in depth, but apparently you can't bear to even look at it, let alone respond; instead you're reduced to these weird meta-complaints that i'm speaking in too much detail. the reason is that you have an emotional attachment to FTV, but not an intellectual understanding of it or the organizing landscape generally. per my friend who i quoted a little while ago, i do not personally blame you for this or believe that you yourself are running some sort of scam, but you are extremely wrong and this is borne out in your inability to actually buckle down and carry through an argument on any specific topic for more than one and a half posts
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Jan 26, 2021 02:46
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maybe if you spend 10000 words defending dsa against whatever and in the end convince nobody and annoy everybody, that's not the fault of everyone else and not even the fault of dsa
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Jan 26, 2021 03:02
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sorry that was a lot of words on my end, too. allow me to summarize: stop posting
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Jan 26, 2021 03:03
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MSDOS KAPITAL posted:maybe if you spend 10000 words defending dsa against whatever and in the end convince nobody and annoy everybody, that's not the fault of everyone else and not even the fault of dsa Yeah no literally, "medicare for all" is three words, "we're doing a healthcare conference with nurses united" is 8. I'm not married to ftv, Ferrinus, but you are pathologically obsessed with long explanatory posts about it that are tedious and in fact the worst possible PR for DSA. And who are you to white knight them when those are almost the only posts you've made in this entire thread? Ask anyone else here, even people who agree with you, and I guarantee they feel the same way as I do. Sorry for my "meta-complaint" but the oxygen levels in this thread are wearing thin
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Jan 26, 2021 03:21
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I think it is a given that if a concept cannot be explained in at most a paragraph, it's either stupidly complex and needs to be simplified or the person explaining it is a dumbass. It holds true for basically everything.
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Jan 26, 2021 04:36
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i'm not here to write PR for dsa, i'm here to talk about organizing strategy and theories of change. the problem with FTV is that it was actively opposed to the former and had a fundamentally liberal example of the latter. dsa, for all its faults, is actually run by its members and can boast that most of those members are socialists, so it's no surprise that only a minority of members were interested in a podcaster's publicity stunt i also wanted to provide a view from the inside of dsa, which i have mentioned several times but will repeat again: dsa does too much medicare for all work. a lot of people in dsa seem convinced that m4a is some kind of magic bullet that will wake up the working class and institute social democracy if only it receives enough publicity and if only enough of the human resources of the dsa are bent solely towards m4a canvassing or phone zaps or whatever. because the m4a partisans know what they're doing, they at least do pursue on-the-ground organizing strategies that get us closer to m4a happening than if we didn't do them, but, i think the kind of monomaniacal focus on universal healthcare that many dsa members want would actually be a bad thing for the organization, as popular as m4a is with the electorate
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Jan 26, 2021 04:41
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electoralism in the context of a bourgeois democracy is fundamentally liberal at the base of it - you can not escape that so that's not the problem with it unless your beef is that people were doing electoralism at all which, okay fine, but that's not what you've been saying and not been how you've framed your defense - the real problem here was that some people decided that enough success had been achieved via electoralism to extract some results, which you apparently aren't supposed to do. at which point the politicians that some of them had labored on behalf of, scorned this exact tactic which they had championed even months before, (and then, literally the following week, applied to defending the impeachment!) to explain why. and so now they will take a hit to their credibility among certain corners of the left, as they should. you will insist it doesn't matter. for my part I probably agree but I'm not sure that the risk was worth it in the defense of... what? nancy pelosi? decorum? either way only time will actually tell us this and you're just blowing smoke up your own rear end in a top hat if you think you know the answer and yes, once again, giving the dem establishment a black eye via jeopardizing pelosi's ascension to speakership is results as myself and others have already explained to you the how and why multiple times. I'm not going to do it again. you already know what I'm going to say and you're welcome to just fill it in yourself. you probably need to read more words here than I'm willing to write anyway finally, the ftv folks weren't "actively opposed" to activism you hare-brained moron. they just see through the tactic of meeting a call to action and results with nebulous appeals to further "organizing" (i.e. for these people, mostly filling my inbox with requests for more cash) before results can be had at some undefined later date
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Jan 26, 2021 08:48
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gently caress that was a lot of words wasn't it. poo poo well at least it was someone else writing them, for a change
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Jan 26, 2021 08:49
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Ferrinus posted:the reason it seems so burdensome to you is that i'm right. that's why you can't easily come up with and dash off a reply to the stuff i've said. i'm finding this quite easy, i guess in part because i'm a fast type but also lmao
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Jan 26, 2021 10:17
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perchance you were amazed at the ease and deft of my skilled debate. i beg you good sir do not neglect in your considerations the favor that the dexterity and limberness of my digital calisthenics bestow upon the same
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Jan 26, 2021 10:20
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my enormous, throbbing brain intimidates everyone into calling me a loving idiot, how sad for them
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Jan 26, 2021 10:37
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WorkerThread posted:typing up a gigantic wall of text where you avoid actually saying anything of value doesn't just automatically refute anybody's arguments At least he isn't defending man of steel
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Jan 26, 2021 10:47
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went past the last 10 pages not reading poo poo lmao
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Jan 26, 2021 14:26
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MSDOS KAPITAL posted:electoralism in the context of a bourgeois democracy is fundamentally liberal at the base of it - you can not escape that Tagging this good post. Thanks!
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Jan 26, 2021 14:50
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So I've almost completely lost faith in electoral action as a path to making the gains we want, but FTV for me was a kind of test, like MSDK wrote above. AOC and the DSA described this strategy of obtaining enough seats to play power broker. Now they had a chance to use it to extract some concessions. Show me, prove to me that your method can lead to real power, not just representation, that the time and money we've spent wasn't for nothing. Show me that you can set a concrete goal outside an election campaign and motivate people until it is reached. And we got a loss of a few committee positions, a meaningless path to a potential paygo exemption for certain bills, and all our champions lining up behind Pelosi. Many people have invested a lot of effort and career-time into this strategy, so they will never set a concrete definition of failure of the strategy, just more platitudes about unity from people who define peace as absence of conflict. I have a lot of love for the DSA members doing good work in their community. That's awesome! But the DSA as a national organization capable of taking on and defeating the status quo in the Dem Party, which is their primary raison-d'etre? Sorry, I just don't see it. The pace is too slow to overcome homeostasis. Too many tactics are off the table. I'm not trying to troll or bait people, by the way. I'm just sincerely disappointed.
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Jan 26, 2021 15:55
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lol
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Jan 26, 2021 15:56
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https://www.facebook.com/pghDSA/posts/2820361051582448 Know a bunch of people probably don't use Facebook, but this is what I've been dealing for the last few days
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Jan 26, 2021 15:58
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While you were partying with friends, I studied the keyboard.
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Jan 26, 2021 16:01
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tiberion02 posted:lmfao, the most revisionist history, lmfao Her language has shifted to "access to healthcare". Whatever stances she rode in on are dead now that the torch of never passing healtcare is in her hands.
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Jan 26, 2021 16:08
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Social Democrats continue to huff their own farts while having absolutely no results
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Jan 26, 2021 16:29
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Ferrinus posted:the reason it seems so burdensome to you is that i'm right. that's why you can't easily come up with and dash off a reply to the stuff i've said. i'm finding this quite easy, i guess in part because i'm a fast type but also because i have a coherent mental model of the world that i can use to explain why FTV is a bad idea.
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Jan 26, 2021 16:40
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