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Stux posted:theyre good friends who fight for each other jokes aside a lot of the dialogue in p5 is just recapping the plot, especially the text convos which you'd think would be a good place for more characterization of how the party interacts. there's some jokes in there but a lot of it is 'hey remember that we have to kill my dad.' there's like 3 scenes in the back half of the game that are just the party sitting in a circle recapping everything from the start of the game to now. there's some group activity scenes like the two beach trips and some recurring bits like morgana and ryuji or yusuke and futaba but the game doesn't really devote a lot of time to like, casual interactions or jokes. persona 4 kinda shotchanged some individual character beats (chie and naoto both wanna be cops you'd think they'd have a lot to talk about, but they barely say three words to each other) but there's at least more attempts at big group scenes even if most of them are extremely unfunny. and persona 3 didn't really have a big group dynamic but it never really felt like it was trying to. iunno, i compare it to something like a tales game where for the most part i can tell you how any given pair of characters interacts and cite some funny moments they had together. when those games try to sell the whole found family jrpg party thing, it works a lot better for me than when persona tries to, since it feels like each member of the group had thoughts and a specific, unique bond with each other member. there's a lot more incidental stuff like battle win quotes, skits, etc, little quick exchanges that do a lot to sell it. persona 5 has like, some combo attacks and baton pass but it isnt really the same. persona 2 and 1 had this issue too though they also seemed less invested in pushing that angle. i think itd be good if the text conversations did a better job seeming like a bunch of friends bullshitting and texting each other, because id buy the friendships more. and if i bought the friendships more, i'd buy the conflict in the party as friends in conflict rather than them just being dicks to each other. the core issue here isnt the fact that there's conflict, or how that conflict is resolved, but the fact that there isn't a lot to these relationships to sell them as meaningful and strong. it just kind of puts the characters in a jrpg party and says they have an unbreakable bond. like i said, if morgana and ryuji teamed up to give makoto poo poo once or something, id instantly buy them as pals way more, especially if makoto got them back at the same time, so they both sort of got owned. just that sort of interaction would establish a lot about them and how they bond. of course the core issue *there* is the entire cast is centralized around the player self-insert, whos' really hard to create a big group dynamic around since he's, well, the player self-insert. a conversation can't really loop him in in the same way it could a normal character, you can't have ryuji and morgana give the player poo poo and have him react to that in the same way, but he's still the center of the group and the leader, so that definitely has impact on how the game attempts to create this big lovable group of idiots feeling. im rambling a lot but i hope you get what i mean. i like the basic ideas of the characters and the group dynamic but there isnt a ton of time devoted to it, so i dont really buy it
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Jan 26, 2021 12:22
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Petiso posted:Yes, unless you really enjoy SMT gameplay cruelty, Redux is the superior version just for the QoL features it introduces. NikkolasKing posted:SJ was my first ever SMT game. Thanks guys, I have been kind of out of the loop and just became aware of it the other day somehow. Seemed like true to form it probably would be the better choice for improved quality of life aspects like most of the re-release editions of SMT type games but wanted to check just in case.
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Jan 26, 2021 13:17
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its not a unique trait but its one thats done well. im not going to claim the 100 hour game doesnt have some extraneous text in it but for me the relationships and group dynamics hit, the big thing for me while playing thru was realising like... i like all of these characters more than the ones in persona 4. and for whatever reason the writing in the modern persona games hits a lot better for me than in other jrpgs trying to establish a group dynamic. i feel like there is a lot of just incidental stuff between characters, at least in what i remember from my two playthroughs, and the larger character arcs felt solid too. its all of that that makes p5 good for me, bcos its not like the game is mechanically difficult or anything, but i love the characters, their dynamics, and the story thats told with them.
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Jan 26, 2021 13:34
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Morgana should have been gay for Ryuji and overcompensating with his horny for Ann.
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Jan 26, 2021 13:39
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Stux posted:the big thing for me while playing thru was realising like... i like all of these characters more than the ones in persona 4. I felt the same way when I played through, which was surprising because I really do like the Persona 4 cast a lot. I'm not sure I can really explain what it is about the Persona 5 cast but they really worked for me, both as individual characters and as a group. Persona 5 has some serious story pacing issues and delivers its exposition very poorly, but for me, at least, that didn't get in the way of my enjoyment of the characters. I did wish that there were more opportunities for everyone to just hang out socially (instead of it almost always being one-on-one with Joker) but it looks like there's some of that to look forward to in Royal, maybe, with the pool hall and darts?
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Jan 26, 2021 15:00
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Endorph posted:persona 2 and 1 had this issue too though they also seemed less invested in pushing that angle. Persona 2 EP had some pretty fascinating conversations between different group pairings but unfortunately a lot of that is just random text you get by talking to them in different stores, plus the convos changes between story events. This isn't just Contract stuff (although there are some funny interactions in the demon negotiations too), you can see some pretty interesting convos between pairings like Katsuya, Baofu, and Nate, or Ulala and Ellen, and there even a few between pairings like Ulala and Tatsuya. For example, Tatsuya also has a pretty funny interaction with a less-than-sober Baofu and he blames Katsuya for his brother being a little snot. It wasn't the focus of the game by a long shot, but I appreciate that they tried to do it at all. In comparison, I don't think I have ever seen Naoto interact with someone like Rise, or Haru talk with Yusuke. MechaX fucked around with this message at 15:10 on Jan 26, 2021 |
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Jan 26, 2021 15:05
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Persona 6 should have fire emblem style Supports in addition to S-Links so in addition to gardening with Haru to unlock Joker/Haru scenes you can do Baton Passes and heals to unlock Yusuke/Haru scenes. THIS I CLAIM
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Jan 26, 2021 15:14
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Unironically a good idea
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Jan 26, 2021 15:26
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Yeah that would rule The one issue with Fire Emblem-style supports, especially with the longer and more detailed ones like in Three Houses, is that character development that happens in the supports can never really be carried over into the main story, because you never know if the player has seen those supports. But poo poo, that's already a problem the Persona games have with their social links so adding support-like conversations between characters wouldn't be introducing a new problem.
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Jan 26, 2021 15:30
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Tired Moritz posted:Unironically a good idea I was being completely serious. It's a great system. You could even make them just text convos! I'm just a greedy content piggy who wants to see my friends be friends! Haru should give Yusuke some money!
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Jan 26, 2021 15:30
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Harrow posted:Yeah that would rule If you ever want to show people an extreme version of this problem, just show Three Houses' post-timeskip supports with Dimitri. Most of them aren't written to sound right coming from him after that, and it is hilarious.
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Jan 26, 2021 15:39
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Really it wouldn't be hard to dodge the "character development happens in supports and not the main story" thing by making the non-protagonist social links just mostly casual scenes and skits. They're there to illustrate the characters' growing friendships, not to be vehicles for major character development like the main social links tend to be. It'd be a lot of fun.Cleretic posted:If you ever want to show people an extreme version of this problem, just show Three Houses' post-timeskip supports with Dimitri. Most of them aren't written to sound right coming from him after that, and it is hilarious. They put in a valiant effort by locking his supports entirely for the first half of act 2, but even after he breaks out of his super-dark mode, he's still not young Dimitri anymore and those scenes still just seem extremely strange. There's just no way around it there. That's the most obvious example of the thing where a lot of the supports are clearly written to be about kids in school and so viewing them in act 2 is just weird. It's never quite as weird as with Dimitri, but it's there. Part of me wonders if they shouldn't have just cast those as conversations that happened in the past that we're only seeing now. Harrow fucked around with this message at 15:42 on Jan 26, 2021 |
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Jan 26, 2021 15:40
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Even just something on the level of the P4/P5 Sunday events would be cool, where like you go fishing with Ryuji and Kawakami or shopping in Akiba with Futaba and Hifumi, but without Joker there. Like Makoto and Ryuji are the only ones at the hideout so they decide to just go get pizza! They could talk about trying desperately to impress their mother figures!
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Jan 26, 2021 15:47
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They put a ludicrous amoung of work into incidental dialogue in P2.
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Jan 26, 2021 16:24
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We already have a better friend system from devil survivor 2
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Jan 26, 2021 16:40
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Harrow posted:I felt the same way when I played through, which was surprising because I really do like the Persona 4 cast a lot. I'm not sure I can really explain what it is about the Persona 5 cast but they really worked for me, both as individual characters and as a group.  projecthalaxy posted:Persona 6 should have fire emblem style Supports in addition to S-Links so in addition to gardening with Haru to unlock Joker/Haru scenes you can do Baton Passes and heals to unlock Yusuke/Haru scenes. THIS I CLAIM yeah this would own
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Jan 26, 2021 18:03
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not sure there's one party member in 5 i would take over anyone in 4. apart from the aforementioned royal improvements as compared to golden
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Jan 26, 2021 18:34
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yeah I agree. A lot of their arcs are weirdly cut short in p5, or at least feel that way. makoto's slink is mostly about stalking her friend, yusukes personality transforms pretty drastically since his introduction. They were fine but I preferred 3 and much preferred 4. maybe royal fixed it though. I would like in the future for them to figure out a way to incorporate relationship advancement into the main story. I'd think if you're dating one of the girls on your team that should have some effect. I know its a bit more work but it'd be nice to be aknowledged outside of some discrete events.
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Jan 26, 2021 18:51
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Tae posted:We already have a better friend system from devil survivor 2 It's literally identical to S Links except you only watch the level up scenes without any of the between level hang outs.
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Jan 26, 2021 18:55
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WrightOfWay posted:It's literally identical to S Links except you only watch the level up scenes without any of the between level hang outs. So... better.
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Jan 26, 2021 19:04
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Supremezero posted:So... better. They're completely different styles of game. The hang out stuff adds to the daily life feel of Persona and helps fill out an entire school year.
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Jan 26, 2021 19:20
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Super No Vacancy posted:not sure there's one party member in 5 i would take over anyone in 4. apart from the aforementioned royal improvements as compared to golden i mean yosuke is just bad. i like the character arcs in 5, futabas alone completely outstrips anyone in 4 imo. also the non-party member slink characters are a lot better than in 4.
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Jan 26, 2021 19:39
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As far as Social Links go I think there are strong ones in P3/P4/P5. My overall favorite cast dynamic is probably 4 but individual favorites would probably include a fair number of 5 and a few 3. Persona 5 Strikers goes a long way to helping some of the P5 characters feel more fleshed out or at least funnier. P2 has my favorite overall Persona cast because of course it does but it's a very different kind of comparison of tones and character. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 19:47 on Jan 26, 2021 |
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Jan 26, 2021 19:44
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hmm i didnt think of futaba but her closest analogue is basically nanako
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Jan 26, 2021 19:47
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The best thing about DeSu 2's system was how the characters would only join you during opposing routes if you got their Fate high enough. That just makes sense and really improves both the story and the characters. You should have to earn the loyalty of Io in order to get her to walk with you down the glorious path to Meritocracy.
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Jan 26, 2021 21:29
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SMT: Strange Journey Redux HD Texture Pack Maybe this is a sign to finally do my Impossible Run of SJR.
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Jan 27, 2021 06:07
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Holy gently caress. SJR has been sitting on my 3DS forever waiting for me to finish other things, but I might hit that up once I'm done with 13 sentinels. I kinda wish they'd done the Kaneko art but beggars can't be choosers.
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Jan 27, 2021 07:12
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Also while I'd say the series is generally more favorable to Chaos than to Law, Chaos has lot of dumb choices. As I recall, refusing to shake Gore's hand gets you a Chaos point. SMTIV had a similar thing at the start IIRC. What does being a rude jackass have to do with anything? It's not like only Law is capable of manners.
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Jan 27, 2021 07:39
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NikkolasKing posted:Also while I'd say the series is generally more favorable to Chaos than to Law, Chaos has lot of dumb choices. Similarly Devil Survivor's chaos avatar is a straight up edgelord, while the law avatar is very polite and helpful. But I guess absolute freedom includes the freedom to be an edgelord. 
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Jan 29, 2021 05:06
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If you don't shake his hand you can extrapolate that the MC doesn't respect the hierarchal authority that gore has over him. Very chaos
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Jan 29, 2021 05:12
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RillAkBea posted:Similarly Devil Survivor's chaos avatar is a straight up edgelord, while the law avatar is very polite and helpful. But I guess absolute freedom includes the freedom to be an edgelord. Well Naoya has a big chip on his shoulder which for some reason you apparently learn more about in the Law Route. But I've only done Naoya's Route in DeSu 1 so... Maybe I'll see that girl's route someday. Although honestly my second choice is Gin's because go Haru.
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Jan 29, 2021 05:34
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NikkolasKing posted:Well Naoya has a big chip on his shoulder which for some reason you apparently learn more about in the Law Route. But I've only done Naoya's Route in DeSu 1 so... This just reminds me that in SMTIV, the Neutral ally Isabeau only gets a complete character journey (albeit a tragic one) if you don't go Neutral. Basically all of her story gets dropped if you actually ally with her.
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Jan 29, 2021 05:57
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About 20 hours into Apocalypse now and it is very much a better "game" than IV. I'm slightly disappointed with the story but only because it pulled a bait and switch. I was pretty excited when they introduced the factions, because that seemed like a cool idea but then they immediately downgraded to an us vs. them.  Otherwise it's been pretty interesting to experience the same world as IV from the other side and I think the tone suits that. For Flynn the discovery of a dilapidated underground city overrun with demons was a harrowing ordeal, for Nanashi and his friends it was Tuesday. Also, having Navarre come back as comic relief is fitting punishment for his actions in IV.  One thing that feels quite weird though is the costumes are all over the place. IV had an interesting mix of medieval armors, survival gear and tacticool garb, but on Apoc I went through a Chinese gown, a sailor suit, biker gang leathers, skipped the questionable military uniform and now I've got a hazmat suit.
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Jan 29, 2021 12:17
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RillAkBea posted:About 20 hours into Apocalypse now and it is very much a better "game" than IV. I'm slightly disappointed with the story but only because it pulled a bait and switch. I was pretty excited when they introduced the factions, because that seemed like a cool idea but then they immediately downgraded to an us vs. them. Hazmat Suit, are you at the Ring of Gaea place? I'm terrible with names. Lotsa big plot stuff must be happening. Then again, even as slow as I am, 20 hours seems like it must be well after that part.... I remember where they sell theHazmat Suits because I was super stuck on a boss (Krishna) before I bought one, the first bit of equipment I got all game. Quite frankly all the costumes are hideous except one expensive endgame bit of equipment.
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Jan 29, 2021 14:28
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Jan 29, 2021 16:43
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I love a lot of things about SJR but I would really like to see something like Demon Co-Op come back. Alignment should impact the battle system more and that was at least one neat idea in that direction, rewarding you for having a team that is your alignment. I try to do that in games even without Demon Co-Op just for thematic and immersion reasons.
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Jan 30, 2021 02:41
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NikkolasKing posted:Also while I'd say the series is generally more favorable to Chaos than to Law, Chaos has lot of dumb choices. Neutral seems to be the 'correct' option in most games, but Chaos usually takes the spot of second best when Neutral isn't available or the devs are feeling especially blasphemous. On the flipside I think SJ:R's New Law ending is the only Law ending in the series that isn't a glorified bad end. I guess SMT2 could count as 'good' if you're particularly amoral.
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Jan 30, 2021 06:57
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Kite Pride Worldwide posted:Neutral seems to be the 'correct' option in most games, but Chaos usually takes the spot of second best when Neutral isn't available or the devs are feeling especially blasphemous. On the flipside I think SJ:R's New Law ending is the only Law ending in the series that isn't a glorified bad end. I guess SMT2 could count as 'good' if you're particularly amoral. Oh I'm very aware. It irks me and many other SMT fans. I interpret the preference for Chaos as being down to how Law is pretty much Fascism or even Nazism more like given the Law love for genocide. SMTIVA makes it pretty blatant with Merkabah constantly talking about a Thousand Year Kingdom. Law pretty much always kicks off the end of the world so it's all their fault fundamentally most of the time. YHVH is always presented as a hypocrite with no ideals beyond a love for power whereas at lest Lucifer abides by his own twisted morals. This is my understanding and interpretation of MegaTen's and Persona's most core message: quote:As long as human rule themselves, thing will get better. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 07:21 on Jan 30, 2021 |
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Jan 30, 2021 07:18
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I feel like Law needs a new leader because it's near impossible to write a fair Law ending with YHWH and the angels being written like they are.
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Jan 30, 2021 07:35
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Funky Valentine posted:I feel like Law needs a new leader because it's near impossible to write a fair Law ending with YHWH and the angels being written like they are. Kind of ironic that Devil Survivor 1 is pretty beloved for its Law Route in spite of being focused on an angel who serves YHVH whereas Devil Survivor 2 gave us Ronaldo instead of Angels or YHVH and everyone despises him.
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Jan 30, 2021 07:54
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