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Vaguely interesting that for the second game for both their major series (DR and 999), the producer was encouraged to tone down the blood/gore, but it affected DR2 much more than VLR. The executions for DR2 are pretty darn mild, and 2-3/2-4's were pretty lame.
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Jan 21, 2021 04:02
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I still say the first execution of the series was the most uncomfortable by far.
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Jan 21, 2021 15:48
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Celestia Ludenberg was burned alive! And nobody really talks about the brutality of it!
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Jan 22, 2021 00:34
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Dessel posted:Yeah it felt like it was even telegraphed that he'd be revealed as the Ultimate Liar. Could've probably sprinkled in plot how his some sort of lieinception saved the others and how his talent basically forces him to lie or something. I felt like it was a bit of a missed mark. One theory I had on him mid-game was that his real talent was Ultimate Actor - the "Supreme Leader" was just a character he was playing. But he was such a supreme method actor that he was compelled to play the villain and stay in character at all times. Acting could be considered a form of "lying", from a certain point of view.
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Jan 22, 2021 02:18
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The thing about V3 is that the talents are fake. The cast is not necessarily good at their supposed talents (eg Himiko cannot perform on stage, Tenko loses a fight with Gonta, Miku and Angie's talents both rely on things appearing while they're asleep). So it wouldn't really make sense for Kokichi being good at lying to have anything to do with his talent.
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Jan 22, 2021 02:48
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Kirumi is still really good at what she does, though.
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Jan 22, 2021 05:10
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Squiddycat posted:Celestia Ludenberg was burned alive! Doesn't she wind up getting hit by a firetruck before that happens?
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Jan 22, 2021 07:01
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I just got to the murder in 1-2...fuuuck me for getting attached to any of these characters lol The trial in chapter 1 went well. It was kinda funny how it reveals the killer within a minute of starting the investigation and you have to spend another half hour or so pretending you don't know. And yes that first execution was brutal as hell but then again it's the only one I've seen so
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Jan 23, 2021 17:33
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The clue for 1-1 is less obvious in JP, but it's still kind of a gimmie.
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Jan 23, 2021 17:45
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I get why it's the case but I still love that 1-1 was the murder plan that was almost certainly the most likely to actually succeed.
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Jan 23, 2021 17:55
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ApplesandOranges posted:Kirumi is still really good at what she does, though. She failed to get away with murder because she didn't clean up a mess...
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Jan 24, 2021 17:44
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This is just my reading of Gundham's character obviously. imo, Gundham lays out his reasoning right at the end of the trial. He believes in survival and everyone else had committed themselves to dying in the Fun House. So he forced their hand. He challenged Nekomaru (the person most likely to accept a challenge AND to understand Gundham's reason for fighting) and their warrior mentality immediately made that understanding. If Nekomaru won, what would he have done? Probably confessed as mentioned before. But Gundham won and he's here to survive. The others had already given up and he wanted to live. If he won in the trial and survived, that matches up with his survival of the fittest mentality. And if the others won ... they were the fittest. And they were his friends. The whole situation was win/win in his mind. The only losing scenario for Gundham was everyone giving up and dying in the Fun House.
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Jan 25, 2021 05:18
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Fallen One posted:Doesn't she wind up getting hit by a firetruck before that happens? Yeah. Which, don't get me wrong, is also pretty brutal. But its more comedic brutal, to the point where said fire truck is basically a comedic punctuation mark on her nice, elegant witchy death scene. Similarly, Teruteru being dunked into lava and made into tempura is also pretty brutal, but its also pretty cartoony the whole time through. The difference between that and Leon's limp body hanging there as a blood-stained baseball rolls away and the music takes on an ominous wailing tone is really stark.
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Jan 25, 2021 06:00
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1-2 kinda sucked lol...took out two of my favorite characters and really twisted Chihiro into an unrecognizable character. Just like in real life folks are real good at switching pronouns on a dime if they think it's unflattering Then onto 1-3 and lol at Hifumi being the only one to actually call her a she, including the AI she herself designed. 2010 was loving wild Complaints aside I'm having a ton of fun with this. And to be extremely charitable I fully expected Chihiro to be a "deranged queer" cliche and wind up as one of the murderers, so they avoided the worst possible outcome for that storyline I guess. I just hope I don't see it again.
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Jan 26, 2021 16:35
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Deified Data posted:Then onto 1-3 and lol at Hifumi being the only one to actually call her a she, including the AI she herself designed. 2010 was loving wild The writing around Chihiro is kind of a mess. [Major spoilers for 1-2 and minor spoilers for some unlockable bonus scenes] As written Chihiro unambiguously identifies as a guy. He presents as a girl in order to avoid facing his issues with self-image and his inability to measure up to his concepts of masculinity, but in bonus scenes he specifically says that he considers that presentation to be a lie and that he lacks the courage to present in a way that matches his true feelings. So in that light Hifumi continuing to call him "she" is Hifumi just seeing what he wants to see and ignoring Chihiro's feelings. Unfortunately if you try to consider this from the perspective of the real life experiences of most gender non-conforming people it all falls apart; even if the writing is possibly intended to be earnest and sympathetic it ends up playing into unpleasant and dangerous stereotypes instead. As you say, 2010, though it's hard to know if things would be any better today.
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Jan 26, 2021 17:37
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Chihiro reads to me as a trans boy. The whole characterisation is about Chihiro not feeling masculine enough to pass as a boy and therefore acting as a girl, and eventually finding the courage to work on that in preparation of coming out rather than being outed by force.
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Jan 26, 2021 18:12
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Tenebrais posted:Chihiro reads to me as a trans boy. The whole characterisation is about Chihiro not feeling masculine enough to pass as a boy and therefore acting as a girl, and eventually finding the courage to work on that in preparation of coming out rather than being outed by force. Yeah; I think if they had realised that was what they were writing and [more 1-2 spoilers] made the mechanics of the mystery revolve around his student ID showing a gender identity he wasn't ready to reveal rather than his physical sex... well, it would still be pretty problematic but I think it would be an improvement.
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Jan 26, 2021 18:38
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Tenebrais posted:Chihiro reads to me as a trans boy. The whole characterisation is about Chihiro not feeling masculine enough to pass as a boy and therefore acting as a girl, and eventually finding the courage to work on that in preparation of coming out rather than being outed by force. This is my reading of Chihiro as well. Chihiro feels forced by society into presenting as female, but he's trying to build up the courage to start presenting as male; it feels very much like a trans boy's narrative. But the game gives that narrative to a cis boy, which ultimately ends up feeling slightly bizarre. For all its faults, though, the second case of the first game is still one of my favourites in the series, and probably the one I had the strongest emotional reaction to. I was so upset to realise that Mondo moving things around and breaking the ID card wasn't done to cover his tracks; it was for his victim's sake, because that was all he could do for Chihiro now.
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Jan 27, 2021 15:29
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Uh I relate to Chihiro's problems a lot and I'm a cis gay dude in a conservative Asian country. I think it's a bit unfair to say that cis dudes can't have problems with restrictive gender roles and stereotypes. Edit: not to say that people reading Chihiro as trans is wrong. just saying that if you're not a masculine boy who decides to get fit and presents yourself as more masculine doesn't necessarily mean that you have some issue with your personal gender identity. Tired Moritz fucked around with this message at 16:02 on Jan 27, 2021 |
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Jan 27, 2021 15:40
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I'm sorry; I didn't mean to suggest Chihiro's specific situation wasn't something anyone could relate to! To be honest, even if it overall feels like a trans guy's story to me, I can relate to the intended story in some senses myself; there are aspects in which I'm not particularly feminine, and I really dislike the idea that that could lead anyone to think I'm not being female 'correctly'. Sorry to hear about your troubles; I hope you're doing well.
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Jan 27, 2021 17:01
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lol no, it's not a big deal. I'm glad that Chihiro's story resonates with a lot of different types of people.
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Jan 27, 2021 18:03
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I'm mostly bummed with how they treated Shinguji. I think even fans of them were upset with their ultimate portrayal.
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Jan 27, 2021 18:08
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ApplesandOranges posted:I'm mostly bummed with how they treated Shinguji. I think even fans of them were upset with their ultimate portrayal. Korekiyo is just a gross crazy evil rear end in a top hat. From what I understand people's disappointment with him is just how awful he is, as he was fairly interesting if creepy before the reveal.
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Jan 27, 2021 19:48
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yeah kiyo was legit my favorite v3 character before the reveal, anthropology is interesting and i loved his hangout events where he talked about it. of course then he turns out to be probably the most loathsome killer in the series that isnt junko, so, rip
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Jan 27, 2021 20:15
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Yeah but S E E S A W E F F E C T so who's to say if it's good or bad? For reals, whole thing was definitely a wasted opportunity, though. I'd have loved it if someone else had killed Angie and then they just have to deal with Kiyohiko getting away with Tenko's murder for the rest of the game.
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Jan 27, 2021 21:56
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Rith posted:This is my reading of Chihiro as well. Chihiro feels forced by society into presenting as female, but he's trying to build up the courage to start presenting as male; it feels very much like a trans boy's narrative. But the game gives that narrative to a cis boy, which ultimately ends up feeling slightly bizarre. Same - I realize I'm projecting a lot on this scenario but it's only because it was such a hard-hitting trial, both the victim and the killer were cool and could have been friends if they had met anywhere else. The whole thing was a huge downer and Taka losing his mind afterwards is like the cherry on top. If I had one critique of 1-2's execution (that is how it was implemented, not the literal execution lol) it'd be how it points you towards Byakuya for 90% of the case and sweeps out the rug at the last minute. I knew the clues that pointed to him were way too obvious but I never accounted for the possibility that he'd straight up gently caress with the crime scene for fun. Were there any hints about Mondo's involvement during the investigation phase other than him saying "dude" which I dismissed as gender neutral?
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Jan 27, 2021 23:37
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3-3: I liked that Kiyo committed the perfect crime but couldn't resist doing a completely unnecessary kill using the plan he'd concocted with previously. The culprit being a serial killer was an essential part of the case.
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Jan 28, 2021 00:01
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dmboogie posted:yeah kiyo was legit my favorite v3 character before the reveal, anthropology is interesting and i loved his hangout events where he talked about it. of course then he turns out to be probably the most loathsome killer in the series that isnt junko, so, rip V3 characters are also affected by the meta-narrative that they're not only fictional characters but they're fictional characters from a long running probably past its prime series that has had to ratchet up its intensity over 53 seasons, leading to wilder and crazier characters or maybe that's more inference on my part.
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Jan 28, 2021 01:04
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Deified Data posted:Same - I realize I'm projecting a lot on this scenario but it's only because it was such a hard-hitting trial, both the victim and the killer were cool and could have been friends if they had met anywhere else. The whole thing was a huge downer and Taka losing his mind afterwards is like the cherry on top. There's the missing ID card from the hallway and the sauna, which if you remember Taka/Mondo's battle in it might help to narrow it down.
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Jan 28, 2021 02:30
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Tenebrais posted:Chihiro reads to me as a trans boy. The whole characterisation is about Chihiro not feeling masculine enough to pass as a boy and therefore acting as a girl, and eventually finding the courage to work on that in preparation of coming out rather than being outed by force. This and what Moritz said about struggling within a society with conservative gender roles are the Chihiro interpretations that make the most sense to me. The latter more than the former from a Doylist perspective; the general tone of the humor in the first game and its focus on distinctly Japanese societal problems gave me the impression that the writers didn't have nuanced views about societal minorities and wouldn't be interested in exploring them. MillennialVulcan posted:V3 characters are also affected by the meta-narrative that they're not only fictional characters but they're fictional characters from a long running probably past its prime series that has had to ratchet up its intensity over 53 seasons, leading to wilder and crazier characters Nah, I also figured that was what was behind the (V3 spoilers)crazy implanted backstories. I mean...Gonta starts out being raised by wolves and then it turns out they were lizard people? Rantaro has twelve sisters! Kirumi is the goddamn Prime Minister of Japan!
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Jan 28, 2021 03:27
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So almost 8 fuckin years after orenronen's LP ended and I decided to dig up some lovely translation online to sate my curiosity, I finally sat down and played a Danganronpa game (2) this past week. God drat this series is so stupid in so many ways but I really do love it, 2 in particular. Don't know why we're still spoilering but: Nanami's story still hits me like a sack of hammers. Something about the emotional core of her and Hinata's arc resonates with me in a way I can't describe. Chapter 5 is so loving powerful and the end of the game is extremely anime in all the best ways.
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Feb 19, 2021 06:31
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Two problems I’ve always had with DR: they try to use details that don’t make sense. the perp wore black gloves? Miu nervously puts her hands behind her back. Also, identical clues don’t work. If the point is “victim was stabbed” the monokuma file that says “victim was stabbed” sometimes works, sometimes not. The “body” evidence sometimes works, sometimes not. “Somebody saw them get stabbed” sometimes works, sometimes not.
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Feb 19, 2021 15:54
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Irony Be My Shield posted:The thing about V3 is that the talents are fake. The cast is not necessarily good at their supposed talents (eg Himiko cannot perform on stage, Tenko loses a fight with Gonta, Miku and Angie's talents both rely on things appearing while they're asleep). So it wouldn't really make sense for Kokichi being good at lying to have anything to do with his talent. Himiko can perform fine though? It's not her fault her trick was turned into a death trap. Also Miu at least does a ton of stuff while awake. I think Angie's the only one who says she creates in her sleep. I mean, it's no less crazy than anything else in the game that their talents can be written in with fake flashback lights. TwoPair fucked around with this message at 18:33 on Feb 20, 2021 |
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Feb 20, 2021 06:36
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Please use spoiler tags for this. V3 ending spoilers I think it's clear that there's a big gulf between things we're told Miu invents and things we actually see her work on. We're told she invents: communication-disrupting grenades, EMP hammers, and a remote control that can hijack any electronic device. We actually see her: Attach a camera to a consumer drone, hook up a security sensor to press a button. The things she actually does are very consistent with the skills you'd expect from a high schooler who's pretty into an electronics hobby, whereas we never see her working on the things that would make her an ultimate - and the finished products of the latter look dramatically more polished and professional than the things we see her work on.
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Feb 20, 2021 10:49
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TheCenturion posted:Two problems I’ve always had with DR: I am not a big fan about the general translation quality of the DR games, and V3 in particular is a mess in my opinion, but that's been argued both way. What's far less of a matter of opinion is that the translation as it relates to the gameplay aspects of the games *is* a mess. I don't think the translators really put much thought into it (or had the appropriate context when translating individual lines). The most notorious example of this are the Hangman Gambit minigames which suck in both languages but at least have some thought about appropriate phrasing and gradual difficulty increase throughout the game in Japanese, while in English they usually just took whatever the direct translation of the Japanese puzzle was, without considering how many characters it has or how many of them are repeats. To your point, in Japanese the evidence descriptions and the contradictions they're used against always make sense. Sometimes you might be able to argue multiple pieces of evidence are logically appropriate, but if you go by what's in the textual in-game descriptions there's always only one answer. The translators weren't that careful.
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Feb 20, 2021 11:40
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TwoPair posted:Himiko can perform fine though?
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Feb 20, 2021 12:00
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orenronen posted:To your point, in Japanese the evidence descriptions and the contradictions they're used against always make sense. Sometimes you might be able to argue multiple pieces of evidence are logically appropriate, but if you go by what's in the textual in-game descriptions there's always only one answer. The translators weren't that careful. This is something that Ace Attorney is usually quite careful about, if I'm not mistaken? There's usually a straight-up error to pick out that you could theoretically do even if you had absolutely no context for the case up to that point (as the court record is updated to contain all the pieces of the puzzle). There are probably a few cases where this isn't true or context is needed but I recall it being pretty consistent throughout, although context always makes it easier.
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Feb 20, 2021 12:37
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Oddly enough, towards the end of any given DR game, I get into the flow of it, and can generally pick out the truth bullet it wants me to use, even if I’ve no idea why.
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Feb 20, 2021 13:57
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Yeah 2-4 is probably the only case where I really had to just give up and blindly match combinations, otherwise you usually get a piece of how cases flow after the first couple cases. V3 is still the most competent cast to me because they actually take a much more active role in figuring out trials. In DR1 Makoto did all the solving while Kyoko and Byakuya just shrugged on the sidelines, and in DR2 it was pretty much Hajime and Chiaki while Nagito dropped cryptic clues here and there. In V3 everyone except Kokichi actively contributed and solved problems and brought up contradictions as they came up.
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Feb 20, 2021 16:45
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NRVNQSR posted:Please use spoiler tags for this. Yeah but there's no reason to think she didn't invent those other things besides "it happened off screen"? I mean, I definitely see how you could choose to read her as being untalented and the producers just made all her poo poo for her, but in a game where the producers can literally rewrite memories and personalities on the fly, I don't see why she can't have invented that other stuff too.
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Feb 20, 2021 18:43
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