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Yossarian-22 posted:then don't defend them constantly that's what's so insane about this. in my estimation, AOC is like... "pretty good, considering". i have been pleasantly surprised by AOC a couple times, most recently re: the hunts point strike. she's obviously not a marxist - in fact you can find an oldish interview where she pooh-poohs the idea of reading theory as some kind of elite affectation - and as a consequence immediately buckles when some media ghoul warns her she isn't calling for the deaths of palestinian children loudly enough. in an even slightly juster world she'd explicitly be on the DSA's right flank, desperately trying to shift her international policy to retain our endorsement but instead her principal crime turns out to be the one thing she actually has been pretty reliable on, which is pushing milquetoast social democratic policies in the public sphere it's similarly bizarre to watch multiple people furious that the DSA is insufficiently committed to m4a, when really the opposite is true Ferrinus has issued a correction as of 18:28 on Jan 26, 2021 |
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Jan 26, 2021 18:26
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Dolphin posted:Like literally just say how it could be harmful to m4a to have a floor vote or just shut the gently caress up with your bizzare diatribes ??? didn't i just say so? and the tweets by aoc that someone posted last page were also really clear. exactly what's confusing you?
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Jan 26, 2021 18:26
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Ferrinus posted:??? didn't i just say so? and the tweets by aoc that someone posted last page were also really clear. exactly what's confusing you?
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Jan 26, 2021 18:27
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Dolphin posted:No you didn't. You did a lot of talking though. aoc thinks a floor vote could be harmful because politicians will be able to lie that they do support m4a when they really don't, so the objective of "putting things on the record" or "revealing people's true positions" will actually get harder, not easier i don't think people lying on the floor vote is a big problem, but i also think we already have all the info a floor vote could give us, and have already been doing the organizing AROUND that info long before FTV came up
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Jan 26, 2021 18:29
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Phi230 posted:waving your hands around whimsically looks goofy, especially when you prioritize it over other business, and interrupt the convention to yell at others for doing the normal thing of clapping Dunking in DSA is easy enough without making fun of their attempts at accessibility.
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Jan 26, 2021 18:31
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Ferrinus posted:aoc thinks a floor vote could be harmful because politicians will be able to lie that they do support m4a when they really don't, so the objective of "putting things on the record" or "revealing people's true positions" will actually get harder, not easier
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Jan 26, 2021 18:32
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Dolphin posted:We aren't clairvoyant so we don't know how people would vote, the president is literally against it so it's not like it would cause any great harm, and no we don't have that info at all and the public especially doesn't we don't KNOW how people will vote, sure. but the number of dem vs. gop votes and whatever mechanics exist to act on or stifle the results of the vote mean that dems COULD vote yes, while actually being against it. then they could be like "ahh i love m4a, i tried my best, but that meanie INSERT_NAME_HERE sabotaged it all!" exact opposite of what FTV wants (which is to reveal who's for or against) and i disagree with you, we absolutely have that info. m4a was a huge deal over the dem primary last year, basically everyone had to weigh in. also we have the actual sponsor list etc of the m4a bill itself. if we wanted to start knocking on doors and telling people whether or not their reps support m4a, we could already be doing it (and, as far as i know, ARE doing it; i'm not involved with m4a work but it's still probably the bulk of what goes on in dsa)
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Jan 26, 2021 18:35
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Dolphin posted:the simplest answer is she likes her cushy health insurance and high paying job and fame and doesn't want to risk that by making too many waves over giving people healthcare during a pandemic its neither the simplest answer, nor the correct one - but go off King
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Jan 26, 2021 18:37
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The video that Tucker Carlson highlighted of the DSA handwringing was pretty damned embarrassing regardless of its good accessibility politics. Ironically it made the DSA seem less accessible as an organization. You can have policies meant to support a wide range of people and still not make an absolute rear end of yourself People raising their hands and shouting "POINT OF PRIVILEGE" was almost a PTSD experience for me in which flashbacks of useless occupy meetings played back in my mind repeatedly. The fact that figures like Tucker were positively giddy at the sheer cringe of it all added to how nauseating that episode was I saw the DSA's most ardent defenders claim that caring about optics was "normie politics" and yet, despite that claim, it remains undeniably true that you kind of have to appeal to normies if you want a class struggle with a mass character? I say this as an rear end burger
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Jan 26, 2021 18:38
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Killin_Like_Bronson posted:Dunking in DSA is easy enough without making fun of their attempts at accessibility. if you read back in this thread to that time, IIRC the entire accessibility argument was pretext to take a swipe at one or more rival caucuses. making such a fuss over stupid bullshit like this is COINTELPRO poo poo
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Jan 26, 2021 18:38
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Ferrinus posted:we don't KNOW how people will vote, sure. but the number of dem vs. gop votes and whatever mechanics exist to act on or stifle the results of the vote mean that dems COULD vote yes, while actually being against it. then they could be like "ahh i love m4a, i tried my best, but that meanie INSERT_NAME_HERE sabotaged it all!" exact opposite of what FTV wants (which is to reveal who's for or against) the Democratic primary where everyone in the country thought Joe Biden and the Democrats at large were for m4a and then it got dropped by Kamala et all one by one? that Democratic primary? oh yes, so much transparency, better not hold a vote because we have so much transparency
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Jan 26, 2021 18:39
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tiberion02 posted:its neither the simplest answer, nor the correct one - but go off King 
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Jan 26, 2021 18:40
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starting my essay on why ftv is bad with the topic sentence "aoc is good"
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Jan 26, 2021 18:42
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the way DSA has to grow in this time is to move past the childish and liberal proclivity for social democracy and start embracing discipline as an org and actually doing political education whoops the national org being total diarrhea undermines your abilities to do this? Can't change it? DSA more like DOA
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Jan 26, 2021 18:44
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Yossarian-22 posted:The video that Tucker Carlson highlighted of found your problem ... okay i also want to respond seriously because i think you're raising the question of "appeal to normies if you want a class struggle with a mass character" in good faith and i'm sure plenty of other people who objected to the ASL clap or whatever did, too. i think people overestimate the extent to which there is such a thing as a "normie", and, on top of that, the extent to which that normie is racist or ableist or whatever. i think it's telling that the worries of the form you're voicing there didn't come from people who think of themselves as "normies", but from people who've conjured some paradigmatic normie in their head who they are then worrying about how to manipulate. i think that if you explain to most people that you're clapping silently rather than noisily because a few people present have disabilities that make noisy clapping difficult to handle, those people would be like, oh, makes sense. only a particular tenor of online nerd elevates being a callous rear end in a top hat to the level of political statement generally, a socialist mass movement needs to be one that respects the most marginalized and disadvantaged among us. this is crucial to build both strength and legitimacy. it's also worth pointing out that the convention is not the same as a canvassing shift or a street protest. obviously someone who's made uncomfortable to the point of distraction by loud noises or whatever should not be fist-fighting the cops - but, as we will be confronting the cops on that person's behalf, that person deserves to be present when we're making binding decisions for the organization precisely to make sure the organization is oriented in a direction that serves that person's needs
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Jan 26, 2021 18:45
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hey Ferrinus, use your lightning quick type skills to look up the word "concision"
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Jan 26, 2021 18:46
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Dolphin posted:they could do a thing so they definitely will do a thing and that would be very bad for reasons i can't articulate but just trust me on this 🤡 i don't really get your objection. FTV itself is premised on a guess about what certain politicians will do (you think they'll vote no, which gives us rhetorical ammo against them). if there's a good chance they'll vote yes instead, which actually TAKES AWAY our ammo, wouldn't that be bad? and yes, that democratic primary. actually i think it's a great example because people were asked flat out over multiple debates whether they supported m4a, and while they started out saying yes they ultimately said no. in the final debate between sanders and biden, biden was EXPLICITLY like "gently caress to m4a, m4a is useless, look at italy, italy's single payer healthcare didn't stop the coronavirus, i spit on m4a". i think you'd agree with me that that debate was a lot more heavily publicized than a floor vote broadcast on c-span will be! and yet
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Jan 26, 2021 18:48
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Yossarian-22 posted:The video that Tucker Carlson highlighted of the DSA handwringing was pretty damned embarrassing regardless of its good accessibility politics. Ironically it made the DSA seem less accessible as an organization. You can have policies meant to support a wide range of people and still not make an absolute rear end of yourself And yeah Robert's Rules can be archaic in multiple ways, but it's still probably the best way to do an assembly/parliamentary procedure. Problem is people need to be trained on to know the basics which admittedly can take a couple of hours and a cheat sheet of the stuff that is used 99% of the time (which really isn't that much compared to the actual text)
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Jan 26, 2021 18:50
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Dolphin posted:hey Ferrinus, use your lightning quick type skills to look up the word "concision" if you're still having trouble, i could do the unthinkable and actually use capital letters and consistent punctuation. that plus more generous line breaks might help you read, uhh, nine sentences in a row
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Jan 26, 2021 18:50
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Ferrinus posted:i don't really get your objection. FTV itself is premised on a guess about what certain politicians will do (you think they'll vote no, which gives us rhetorical ammo against them). if there's a good chance they'll vote yes instead, which actually TAKES AWAY our ammo, wouldn't that be bad? yes and yet voters were STILL confused about Joe Biden's stance. which is why you keep it on tv... like with a floor vote. bing bong
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Jan 26, 2021 18:52
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no actually not getting politicians to vote for things we want is the best way
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Jan 26, 2021 18:54
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my favorite part about all this is everyone rushing to AOC's rescue with arguments she never made herself she didn't do it for these reasons: *long list of invented poo poo*
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Jan 26, 2021 18:58
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Phi230 posted:if you read back in this thread to that time, IIRC the entire accessibility argument was pretext to take a swipe at one or more rival caucuses. I did not realize that history, I just have a kid in a wheelchair so I'm more sensitive to when people say that things needing to be 'normal' in the context of accessibility.
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Jan 26, 2021 19:01
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Killin_Like_Bronson posted:I did not realize that history, I just have a kid in a wheelchair so I'm more sensitive to when people say that things needing to be 'normal' in the context of accessibility.
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Jan 26, 2021 19:26
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Ferrinus posted:lol, predictable I don't really care to hear each of your 1000 justifications for why everyone who disagrees with you or the dsa on a question of tactics, is not actually a leftist
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Jan 26, 2021 20:08
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I can't help but think the clapping thing would have gone over better if it was sold more on the "let's ASL clap so we don't have to stop every three loving seconds"
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Jan 26, 2021 20:21
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Dolphin posted:ftv is premised on getting a vote on the record, and politicians on the record. how they vote is not as important as knowing how they vote. but uhh if a bunch of politicians who are against m4a vote yes on the floor vote, won't that contribute to confusion over whether they support m4a? MSDOS KAPITAL posted:a predictable response to your posting in this thread, yes that's not actually what my post says; you are engaging in a deliberate and disingenuous misreading. as i have written in the past, i think that leftists who support FTV in good faith - and there are plenty, and indeed i'm sure you are one - are guilty of a theoretical error (a mirror of the error that AOC is making in her quoted tweets, in fact). specifically they are being idealist rather than materialist and treating comms and optics as more important than organizing
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Jan 26, 2021 20:23
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christmas boots posted:I can't help but think the clapping thing would have gone over better if it was sold more on the "let's ASL clap so we don't have to stop every three loving seconds" maybe, but on the other hand the fight with the people who were against ASL clapping precisely because they don't want to cater to comrades with disabilities is one we would have had to have sooner rather than later. ableism supports capitalism
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Jan 26, 2021 20:25
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Populon posted:https://youtu.be/UPLQNUVmq3o Youtube Comment posted:So based on this, the resistance can be beaten by a round of applause. 
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Jan 26, 2021 20:28
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achillesforever6 posted:Cue the 2019 Convention when people decide to clap and had to be told to stop clapping and use ASL clapping. Parts of this group would use that to form their caucus: The Class Unity Caucus (CUC) which made their big opening manifesto titled "Let Them Clap" and their whole deal is that ASL clapping is alienating to the working class and that we need to act "normal" to build power with the masses. It's very stupidpol/class reductionist bullshit. Is it? Let me say that the people I work with would be all over this. That doesn't make it automatically a mistake. I understand the need to accommodate people with special needs, but this would 100% be a barrier for some, versus for example wheelchair ramps or even restrictions on strong scents.
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Jan 26, 2021 20:35
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Ferrinus posted:and yes, that democratic primary. actually i think it's a great example because people were asked flat out over multiple debates whether they supported m4a, and while they started out saying yes they ultimately said no. in the final debate between sanders and biden, biden was EXPLICITLY like "gently caress to m4a, m4a is useless, look at italy, italy's single payer healthcare didn't stop the coronavirus, i spit on m4a". i think you'd agree with me that that debate was a lot more heavily publicized than a floor vote broadcast on c-span will be! and yet One thing that people forget was that the primary was essentially over by Super Tuesday, and before the single 1v1 debate Bernie was essentially dead in the water due to all of the insane manuevering by the Dems between South Carolina and ST. Biden had the primary wrapped up and no amount of pushback from Bernie against Biden after that point would have changed the result
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Jan 26, 2021 20:36
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Yossarian-22 posted:One thing that people forget was that the primary was essentially over by Super Tuesday, and before the single 1v1 debate Bernie was essentially dead in the water due to all of the insane manuevering by the Dems between South Carolina and ST. Biden had the primary wrapped up and no amount of pushback from Bernie against Biden after that point would have changed the result totally with you on this one, and this is why at the time i was really mad at bernie for not going hard on biden in the debate - oh, is he too friendly with joe?? senate collegiality matters more to him than healthcare?! - i've by now come around to the understanding that it didn't really matter. we'd already lost. and, of course, what defeated us was organizing - organizing by the establishment dems to consolidate their votes (and also outright cheat on various primary vote tallies, i'm sure) and conversely a failure on the bernie campaign's part to exert the kind of effort it did in nevada on later primary states
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Jan 26, 2021 20:40
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Ferrinus posted:see, this is what i keep talking about. FTV's leaders do not believe in organizing, and their actual, practical achievement (and perhaps objective) is to turn people off organizing FTV was intended to be a vehicle to spur engagement and pressure from outside congress, as both AOC and DSA described the tactic, when they were in favor of it... *checks notes* ... in 2019. Lenin, by the way, specifically called out people who thought disengaging from parliamentary action entirely was true leftism, which you would know if you ever in your life read Lenin.
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Jan 26, 2021 20:45
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PhilippAchtel posted:FTV was intended to be a vehicle to spur engagement and pressure from outside congress, as both AOC and DSA described the tactic, when they were in favor of it... *checks notes* ... in 2019. in left-wing communism, lenin makes a point that at separate times the bolsheviks have seen fit to abstain completely from parliament or to participate in as a bloc, depending on what the balance of forces was at the time and where the needs and attention of the people lay. given that, you should understand why a tactic appropriate at some times might be inappropriate at other times, i.e. why a floor vote might have been more helpful in early 2019 than it would be in early 2021. we've actually been over this in some depth, but everyone likes to pretend not to have read any answer given on the topic so they can feel like they're the first to bring it up
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Jan 26, 2021 20:48
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Ferrinus posted:we've actually been over this in some depth, but everyone likes to pretend not to have read any answer given on the topic so they can pretend to be the first to bring it up dude people aren't actively plotting against you and sometimes just forget things you have said in several pages worth of text
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Jan 26, 2021 20:51
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Yossarian-22 posted:dude people aren't actively plotting against you and sometimes just forget things you have said in several pages worth of text No, I am. And thank you for noticing btw.
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Jan 26, 2021 20:52
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Ferrinus posted:in left-wing communism, lenin makes a point that at separate times the bolsheviks have seen fit to abstain completely from parliament or to participate in as a bloc, depending on what the balance of forces was at the time and where the needs and attention of the people lay. given that, you should understand why a tactic appropriate at some times might be inappropriate at other times, i.e. why a floor vote might have been more helpful in early 2019 than it would be in early 2021. we've actually been over this in some depth, but everyone likes to pretend not to have read any answer given on the topic so they can pretend to be the first to bring it up It wasn't pushed for at either time and I can't think of a single reason why it would've been more relevant in 2019 as opposed to right now, when we're in the midst of a pandemic in which tens of millions have lost their employer health insurance and scores of millions more face bankruptcy for long, expensive treatment. What even is the alternative path forward here? What's the proposed timeline and reasoning that it's impossible now when it's desperately needed but will be possible later when the issue is buried once again by the Democratic establishment
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Jan 26, 2021 20:54
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Ferrinus posted:in left-wing communism, lenin makes a point that at separate times the bolsheviks have seen fit to abstain completely from parliament or to participate in as a bloc, depending on what the balance of forces was at the time and where the needs and attention of the people lay. given that, you should understand why a tactic appropriate at some times might be inappropriate at other times, i.e. why a floor vote might have been more helpful in early 2019 than it would be in early 2021. we've actually been over this in some depth, but everyone likes to pretend not to have read any answer given on the topic so they can feel like they're the first to bring it up lmao dude this is politics not math class, you can’t prove that you’re objectively right and win the thread. there’s no “correct” answer, you can point to historical examples and other people can point to other historical examples and theories can be presented and argued about. the way you post poo poo like “we’ve been over this already” and act like you’re the thread professor who just needs to get everyone to accept the right solution is insanely loving obnoxious and no matter how many pretentiously worded paragraphs you type out you will never prove that your theory of change is the objectively correct one, because that isn’t a thing in politics
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Jan 26, 2021 20:54
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Yossarian-22 posted:dude people aren't actively plotting against you and sometimes just forget things you have said in several pages worth of text they're plotting against you as well, since of course you and your fellows brought up the same issue but are just getting swept under the rug
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Jan 26, 2021 20:54
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the thing about Lenin that gives him credibility on this that the American left and its representatives in Congress do not have is that the former was a successful revolutionary and the latter can't claim poo poo except vague "awareness raising"
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Jan 26, 2021 20:55
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