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Zesty posted:Good or bad for them? I would guess decent for their morale because it's a big number, but horrible logistics-wise, both because of monetary/materiel loss and also the fact that it's clearly been demonstrated that their inter-alliance dealings are sketchy. As Brisc said, there's not as much incentive for the pilots that exfil'ed to want to stick their dicks in the beehive again anytime soon and risk losing access to their shiny for another near-month. I guess we'll see if/when the titans are used in ops again where their heads are at collectively.
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Jan 27, 2021 08:04
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Zesty posted:Good or bad for them? Terrible. Dreads still take time to build, and they just fed literally months worth of them to us. It's as big a loss as what they took during the previous massive bashes for far fewer losses on our end. They've been threatening with this dread fleet for a long while, and we just about killed ALL of them. Intelligence suggests they don't have a very deep reserve, or if they do replacements will have to be shipped all the way from the north, with tons of opportunities for interception. Titans are powerful, but they can't be fielded without support, and PAPI just lost an absolute shedload of theirs. (Also, us Carrierswarm folks won the air war quite decisively - I contributed millions in dead fighters for literally no losses on my end.) 2/3rds or so of the titan fleet below the keep is still trapped. Asher or Mittens can explain it in more detail. But this was terrible and expensive for them, and if they have to do it two more times...
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Jan 27, 2021 08:12
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That's the best extraction they could've hoped for, now that their dread fleet is no longer a thing for the coming weeks/months Vily is claiming it's "half extracted" lol lmao, not even his own little test pilots are going to believe that locator agents are being run to find the exact number
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Jan 27, 2021 08:36
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ellbent posted:Hey, so. I ‘played’ for like a few months in 2009-2012 and did basically nothing but put my feet up and play APB while hanging out in mumble until an alarm went off, then flew out to an op and exploded. Nullsec industrialists do their shipping in-house, so if you want to be an independent contractor you'll probably have to to go hisec. (You could try blockade runner importation, but that's hardly low-pressure.) You can even get started on an alpha clone to see if you like it - you'll just need any racial industrial skill. You'll specifically want to do it with a character not in a corp (or in a corp with no intentions of ever dropping structures) to avoid wardecs.
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Jan 27, 2021 08:36
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I think if you focus on this fight specifically they won the battle, even though they took insane losses. The strategic objective of the battle was to extract a bunch of the trapped titans, and they succeeded. I would say we won each of the keepstar battles despite us burning a trillion isk for each one. However if you look at the war more generally, and specifically why this battle took place it all, it was simply the continuation of an embarrassing defeat for them. This is just another 2T isk you can pile on top of the 25T they have already lost attacking the M2- keepstar. In this case it was mostly dreads, which are different and in some ways more difficult to replace logistically, and they still haven't accomplished either their initial objective of destroying the M2- keepstar nor a full extract from the initial fight.
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Jan 27, 2021 08:39
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^^^^^ This guy gets it methinks
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Jan 27, 2021 08:44
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I think the phrase were looking for is Pyrrhic Victory.
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Jan 27, 2021 08:46
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Zesty posted:Good or bad for them? I mean, props to them, they got them out. Morale improved. But I suspect that once the endorphin rush dies down, it's going to be a mixed bag. On one hand, they got about a third of their titans out. On the other hand, they only got 1/3rd of the bottom group out, and at a fairly high price. PAPI claims to have over a thousand dreads cached; assuming that wasn't a boast, they can blow half of that cache on replacing tonight's losses. So, at best, they can only do a stunt like this one more time before they're cashed out. (And it'll take a few days before they can really do it again. They need to move that cache up to T5. Plus, PAPI policy is to only replace the hull/rigs, so the ~500 capitals that died today will mean their players forking out for replacing mods/fuel/implants, etc. and get those moved up as well.) It'll take months to replenish that dread cache -- capitals take a long time to build, and doing so means burning down their mineral reserves, which are an extremely precious resource at the moment given CCP's current Starvation design. But, all that aside, looking forward to the next N months: What does having those titans enable that wasn't possible before? They still have another 200ish titans trapped in M2, which means their supercap fleet is still not at full strength; until it is, they are going to be avoiding anything that could lead to a supercap slugfest (hitting keepstars, etc). In many ways, having a massive dread ball was a far more useful tool for making progress in Delve -- HAW dreads for fighting HAC fleets, SR dreads for killing FAX hackers, etc. -- than a handful of titans. So it'll be interesting to see how this plays out. Oddly enough, it also looks like the majority of the titans that escaped were FRT, which is a weird thing; if anything, future breakouts would benefit from having more AUTZ pilots in M2, not fewer.
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Jan 27, 2021 08:47
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ullerrm posted:Oddly enough, it also looks like the majority of the titans that escaped were FRT, which is a weird thing; if anything, future breakouts would benefit from having more AUTZ pilots in M2, not fewer. There is a rumor that FRT is redeploying at least half of their forces back to the north where they are engaged in another war that is going poorly. It's possible that all the titans that got out today are just immediately leaving delve.
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Jan 27, 2021 08:52
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Klyith posted:the Smaugs are just converting their hoard to an improved form of value and gaining profit on the transaction. when the weather changes again they'll have their hoards right back. if CCP thinks deflation and economic constriction are good answers to the super rich, they're even dumber than I'd thought. what? liquid isk is literally the worst and least valuable thing to have stockpiled. literally every month that faucets exceed sinks less (excluding the inactivity isk loss) your money is worth less. the problem is that stockpiles have amassed to a degree where end unit price is insulated from production cost - as everyone who's been building poo poo can attest (profits aren't that great). the alternative to burning through the existent stockpiles is to render them immaterial by increasing both output capacity, and the amount of real isk being generated through things like npc buy orders and rat bounties. the problem with that alternative is that you just wind up back in this situation further down the road. despite being idiots they do have eyes on, for instance, the fraction of monthly trit created by the refinement process as a total of all available trit (inactive and active). when you look at that data even a complete moron can draw the correct conclusion of "oh poo poo do we have too much poo poo out there stockpiled?" e.g. the amount of tritanium alone lost in M2-XFE in the span of over 4 weeks is well north of 1 TRILLION units. in ISK terms that represents the entire mining output of the top 9 mining regions in the game for an entire month. but what happened to the price of tritanium? It's lower now than it was in october, and that's not because we all decided to stop building titans.
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Jan 27, 2021 09:21
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lol reddit.com is amazing 
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Jan 27, 2021 09:26
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Welped a bunch of dictors while flying in Asher's fleet and bubbling titans and dreads. 10/10 would do again
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Jan 27, 2021 09:28
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ellbent posted:If I wanted to take up space truckin’, should I try and build off of what I’ve got, do a respec, or just start a new character altogether? Is there any need for low-pressure space truckin’ in this community specifically? Space trucking is pretty much what EVE is all about. There's a lot of money to be made in all sorts of ways. I'd imagine it's easy enough to set up a small logistics business of your own. Definitely stick with the existing character if they're above 1.5m skill points. I've recently paid people to move large amounts of Stuff around Empire space (via contracts). (I noticed this got lost amid papi incinerating their dread fleet, so thought I'd throw in a basic answer)
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Jan 27, 2021 10:14
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The fun thing about extracting a logged off Titan fleet is that on any given date and time where the login call is made some of those players are going to be unavailable. Some of the PAPI pilots who could happily commit to a fight during Christmas break weren't expecting to still be there logged out four weeks later, they're not going to all be able to respond and get out with the rest. You're going to have stragglers stuck in there for a long time yet assuming the camp stays up even if there is another large breakout or two.
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Jan 27, 2021 10:23
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Aertuun posted:Space trucking is pretty much what EVE is all about. There's a lot of money to be made in all sorts of ways. Eve is theoretically fun!
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Jan 27, 2021 10:24
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Eve Online 2021: Eve is theoretically fun!
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Jan 27, 2021 10:27
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Much like my theoretical degree in physics
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Jan 27, 2021 10:49
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So Vily confirmed that they only contacted some trusted titan pilots to be online and ready, they got out a third of their titans and they did ping out for them to login when it happened. What that means is that less than a third of their titan pilots are trusted - because some would have just been online via dumb luck and logged in. I think the morale loss from that will be even higher, if you're one of the two thirds who wasn't told how are you feeling right now?
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Jan 27, 2021 10:56
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Solus posted:lol reddit.com is amazing lmao
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Jan 27, 2021 10:59
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ded posted:Much like my theoretical degree in physics Boy don’t I know it.
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Jan 27, 2021 11:04
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vulvamancer posted:So Vily confirmed that they only contacted some trusted titan pilots to be online and ready, they got out a third of their titans and they did ping out for them to login when it happened. What that means is that less than a third of their titan pilots are trusted - because some would have just been online via dumb luck and logged in. I think the morale loss from that will be even higher, if you're one of the two thirds who wasn't told how are you feeling right now? What the actual gently caress? No seriously, WHAT THE ACTUAL gently caress? And they call themselves the good guys 
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Jan 27, 2021 11:23
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vulvamancer posted:So Vily confirmed that they only contacted some trusted titan pilots to be online and ready, they got out a third of their titans and they did ping out for them to login when it happened. What that means is that less than a third of their titan pilots are trusted - because some would have just been online via dumb luck and logged in. I think the morale loss from that will be even higher, if you're one of the two thirds who wasn't told how are you feeling right now? 
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Jan 27, 2021 11:32
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vulvamancer posted:So Vily confirmed that they only contacted some trusted titan pilots to be online and ready, they got out a third of their titans and they did ping out for them to login when it happened. What that means is that less than a third of their titan pilots are trusted - because some would have just been online via dumb luck and logged in. I think the morale loss from that will be even higher, if you're one of the two thirds who wasn't told how are you feeling right now? lol
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Jan 27, 2021 11:34
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So what are the odds of passpi being willing to throw away another 2 trillion isk in dreadnoughts to extract the "untrusted" titans? Or is Vily just going to abandon them there after getting his own titan out and declaring victory?
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Jan 27, 2021 11:50
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Collateral Damage posted:So what are the odds of passpi being willing to throw away another 2 trillion isk in dreadnoughts to extract the "untrusted" titans? i think it's more about the moral boost that a breakout gives. After today the papi reddit crew are back in full swing, so it's probably not a far leap to assume that they are on a high right now. If they come back and break more out that'll be another high. If they stagger the breakouts they can drip feed moral boosts as needed. Because of this, I have no doubt they'll try for the rest
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Jan 27, 2021 12:01
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hopefully we are more on our toes now that we know what a breakout looks like and also swaggaring boastful arrogance breeds stupidity and mistakes
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Jan 27, 2021 12:05
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Oh man, flying around highsec in a hyperspatial dramiel is so much nicer than sitting in tidi. locator fleet > rokh fleet
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Jan 27, 2021 12:16
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vulvamancer posted:So Vily confirmed that they only contacted some trusted titan pilots to be online and ready, they got out a third of their titans and they did ping out for them to login when it happened. What that means is that less than a third of their titan pilots are trusted - because some would have just been online via dumb luck and logged in. I think the morale loss from that will be even higher, if you're one of the two thirds who wasn't told how are you feeling right now?  Solus we need some epic propaganda piece about Vily not trusting 2/3 of his Titan pilots
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Jan 27, 2021 12:27
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Meanwhile, Papi once again seems to be forgetting that all this effort has been going purely into fixing a mistake, and that they've been utterly stonewalled on M2- for a month and have spent trillions of ISK, now, attempting to break their force out of M2- so they can go back to attempting the original strategic objective of cutting off the 1DQ area from Fountain and north Delve. Since we all love real-life war analogies, this is seriously reaching World War I levels of strategic logic. Papi is now fighting, with massive material losses, to secure an objective they themselves created in attempting a different objective. They're still fighting for Hill 30 when the original objective was Paris (and literally by Christmas, might I remind people). How much more are they going to throw at trying to secure this sub-objective to the objective before attempting to push their actual objectives again?
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Jan 27, 2021 13:00
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I reactivated my sleeping-since-2016 account today off the back of the gbs thread and find im in Groon, in lonetrek in a VNI and with half the mods switched off? feels like when you wake up after a heavy night and cant remember how you got to where you are. 11b isk though which is nice
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Jan 27, 2021 13:51
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kecske posted:I reactivated my sleeping-since-2016 account today off the back of the gbs thread and find im in Groon, in lonetrek in a VNI and with half the mods switched off? feels like when you wake up after a heavy night and cant remember how you got to where you are. 11b isk though which is nice
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Jan 27, 2021 14:07
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I was sleeping for this fight  So how did they manage to break those titans out? not enough bubblers to keep them on field?
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Jan 27, 2021 14:46
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It looks like papa extracted 176 titans, lost 5 and 137 remain trapped. So they got out just over half their trapped fleet.
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Jan 27, 2021 14:53
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drat, I silenced my phone and went to bed just before last night's pingpocalypse. Final update is ~137 remain trapped, ~176 extracted and ~5 killed. 44% dead/trapped, 56% free. A costly win for papi, but trading 2 dread fleets for almost 200 freed titans is a good play. Props to them for figuring it out and pulling the trigger, props to us for forcing them to only have costly choices and making them pay once they chose. Interested to see how hard we hold the remaining 137, which is still a shitload, and to see if FRT or anyone else fully fucks off. Also: captainclaw posted:Eve Online 2021: Eve is theoretically fun! coelomate fucked around with this message at 15:30 on Jan 27, 2021 |
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Jan 27, 2021 15:18
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bet you that subreddit is chock-full of woman respecters and not racists
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Jan 27, 2021 15:33
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captainclaw posted:Eve Online 2021: Theoretically Fun
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Jan 27, 2021 15:34
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If we're really going to go all in on real-world war analogies, this feels more like Operation Bagration (aka the destruction of Army Group Center). The fight at M2 was Stalingrad, and now they are trying to get out. It's not a perfect analogy, of course. PASPI getting ~100 Titans out last night was worth the cost of ~400 Dreadnoughts. Think of it this way: it was cheaper than asset safety, had that been available. Strategically, the Titans were worth it. Short term, though, it will be operationally disastrous. Without dreadnoughts, they cannot prosecute a war in Delve effectively. They jumped into M2 without an extraction plan. If they're smart, they should be creating an extraction plan from Delve right now.
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Jan 27, 2021 15:56
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Sekenr posted:Are newbie frigs even useful there? I am not even in 1DQ yet but could easily suicide there. If I read about it a bit earlier, could have missed a couple hours of work no problem A newbie frig can tackle a dreadnought, but not a supercarrier or titan. Baculus posted:what? Were minerals the worst thing to stockpile from 2016-2019? Every day there was more mined than used so your minerals were worth less. Isk is just another commodity in the game that gets created from nothing and tends to accumulate. It accumulates faster than minerals because ship insurance is a thing, but everything accumulates. And anyone who believed that isk was literally always the worst thing to hold and, for example, bought lots of plex in 2019 has done poorly. Baculus posted:the problem is that stockpiles have amassed to a degree where end unit price is insulated from production cost - as everyone who's been building poo poo can attest (profits aren't that great). Increasing demand by adding more minerals into build recipes would be the other way to handle it. At that point you're just re-basing everything to what it was 4 years ago and shifting the decimal point over to haircut the stockpiles. Only problem with that is it's a massive win for the people with 500 titans... but you could solve that at the same time by making 500 titans less of a win.
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Jan 27, 2021 16:04
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Ynglaur posted:If we're really going to go all in on real-world war analogies, this feels more like Operation Bagration (aka the destruction of Army Group Center). The fight at M2 was Stalingrad, and now they are trying to get out. It's not a perfect analogy, of course. It sounds like they are going to triple down in delve. They have subcap superiority and have been winning subcap fights. But even if one part of PAPI wanted to leave delve, they can't since their supers are stuck still, so they will continue fighting us
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Jan 27, 2021 16:12
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Trevorrrrrrrrrrrrr posted:It sounds like they are going to triple down in delve. They have subcap superiority and have been winning subcap fights.
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Jan 27, 2021 16:24
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