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Hadlock posted:Yeah this exactly Or the senior that sits behind you that's been writing code for 7 years.
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Jan 27, 2021 03:59
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Anyone have suggestions for good names for roles/levels? As in, what roles and levels would you define for devs at your company if it was up to you? I kind of like Individual Contributor 1-6 because it's simple. Jr/Intermediate/Sr seems like you end up with buckets that are a bit too large, or that everyone is intermediate because you don't want to call people jr. Places where upper levels are staff/architect/senior staff/etc never made a ton of sense to me but that's probably because I've never worked somewhere with roles like that. Like what's the difference between a staff and an architect and a sr staff? Anyway I'm curious if anyone has hot tips on defining clear levels for devs within a company. Thanks in advance
awesomeolion fucked around with this message at 13:59 on Jan 27, 2021 |
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Jan 27, 2021 13:57
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There's a pretty standard career path at the lower levels that parallels what we see in other professions and industries. The titles vary a bit across organizations, but the progression goes like this:
The higher levels vary a bit more across organizations and specializations. In general the difference between a senior engineer and a staff engineer has to do with the latter's ability to contribute to the organization's overall strategy instead of just working on individual projects. But the difference between staff and senior staff, or whether there even is a senior staff level, isn't at all consistent. Larger organizations will have more levels and more rigidly codified expectations.
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Jan 27, 2021 15:57
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At my company it's: Juniors are still learning but contribute Mid levels do most of the actual work Senior as described Staff works across verticals/teams (kinda like an Architect) Principal engineer is the overall strategy etc. We also have Associate as a lever bellow Junior, as a step after Intern or for barely-contibuting college grads. If you're contributing meaningful stuff, your a Junior at least, and we have expectation that Mid levels are mentoring. It's a bit skewed, IMHO. e: correction, they reshuffled the titles, so the Junior is the lowest level now and Associate is the second, but everything else remains the same. Associate is a new role and they were gonna use it as the baseline, but I guess that changed in the meantime. gbut fucked around with this message at 17:13 on Jan 27, 2021 |
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Jan 27, 2021 16:54
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Now they want me to do two additional technical interviews. Feels like a bad sign when there's this many hoops, like they don't know what they're looking for. Somewhat disrespectful of my time too, they can't even schedule them one after the other, but spread them over one day.
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Jan 27, 2021 21:16
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I'm actually rebuilding our corporate title structure as we speak (plus a fun choose-your-own title svelte project). We went with 7 levels: Entry (SE0) Junior (SE1) Mid-level (SE2) Senior (SE3) Staff (SE4) Then the next two are specific to our corporate structure: Principal (SE5) - Operates at the business unit level and provides technical experience/consultation over 3-7 products Fellow (SE6) - Operates at the corporate level across all the products. I think most folks like the names, but the SE#, I feel like, translates better to FAANG roles. The Entry/Junior split is probably going to be the thing that varies the most in the basic ladder. Some places will lump everyone sub 3 years exp into a junior, but I think there's room for a distinction between Entry with 0-2 years and Junior with 1-3 years exp.
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Jan 27, 2021 23:32
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thotsky posted:Now they want me to do two additional technical interviews. Feels like a bad sign when there's this many hoops, like they don't know what they're looking for. Somewhat disrespectful of my time too, they can't even schedule them one after the other, but spread them over one day. In my experience when I have additional technical interviews, I did well enough on a lot of the team fit and general aptitude parts, but they're not 100% sure that my technical skills are up to snuff. Which is pretty fair because I probably wing too many interviews and I should only interview after having 1000+ LCs under my belt 
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Jan 28, 2021 02:50
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Tezzeract posted:In my experience when I have additional technical interviews, I did well enough on a lot of the team fit and general aptitude parts, but they're not 100% sure that my technical skills are up to snuff. I feel like I don't interview particularly well and was never that interested in solving a bunch of programming championship puzzles, so yeah, maybe. It's tough, I'm not the fastest programmer, and I don't generally memorize a lot of programming stuff. I'm at my best when I can take my time with a complex problem, or as an authority on a system I've worked with for a while, neither of which I feel aids me in interviews, making me pretty nervous about them. I wonder if delivering short solutions to the programming tests they put me through hurt me; I usually view that as a plus, especially when it aids in readability, but maybe it does not inspire the same confidence as doing things the hard way. thotsky fucked around with this message at 04:26 on Jan 28, 2021 |
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Jan 28, 2021 04:13
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Any good advice I could read on negotiating salary? I'm having a call tomorrow regarding a job offer. The HR person has already requested my salary expectation via email. I currently have a job so I've got some leverage there.
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Jan 28, 2021 21:15
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say "competitive" and wait for them to say first number they gotta give a salary range if youre in figgieland prime (california)
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Jan 28, 2021 21:15
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If you're in MA, you can politely tell them to check with legal before asking that question and that you'll pretend you didn't hear it.
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Jan 28, 2021 21:23
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I'm in Toronto
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Jan 28, 2021 21:30
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HappyHippo posted:I'm in Toronto Pick something that feels on the edge of exorbitant compared to your current salary but not outlandish; like 20-25% more and start there as an anchor point. If you're done all the interviews they clearly want you so start high and let them try and wiggle down. I have done a lot of hiring as a manager/director in Toronto and you can DM me if you have specific questions about ranges here!
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Jan 28, 2021 21:32
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Thanks! Sent a message
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Jan 28, 2021 21:41
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I’ve been working remotely for about 5 years now and it’s been almost exclusively with what I would describe as “remote-first” organizations (i.e. remote is not a privilege for a select set of people, a temporary arrangement, etc.). An issue I’ve run into a lot lately (which I’m sure is mostly pandemic fueled but fairly frustrating) is companies flagging their listings as remote on SO, etc. and then running a bit of bait and switch in interviews with “remote for the right person”. When pressed on what that means the answer is usually vague, sprinkled with mentions of relocation assistance, etc. I can understand having higher standards or requirements for remote positions and this isn’t that as much as it appears to be “we’d really rather not, but if we can’t find anyone better locally then maybe”. In general would you move on from an opportunity for this? If I were still cutting my teeth on remote experience I’m sure I’d feel differently but I just can’t imagine that working out well in the long term.
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Jan 28, 2021 21:48
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HappyHippo posted:Any good advice I could read on negotiating salary? I'm having a call tomorrow regarding a job offer. The HR person has already requested my salary expectation via email. I currently have a job so I've got some leverage there.
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Jan 28, 2021 22:23
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Vulture Culture posted:$350k total comp, no preference for salary/bonus breakdown but you'll need a signing bonus to bridge the gap if you see a big hit to your weekly paycheck. You're not in it for the money but you've got bills to pay 
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Jan 28, 2021 22:35
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Iverron posted:In general would you move on from an opportunity for this? If I were still cutting my teeth on remote experience I’m sure I’d feel differently but I just can’t imagine that working out well in the long term. I wouldn't. If you were hired with the expectation that it would be 100% remote with no future relocation, they most likely wouldn't have the established lines of communication, management, or processes in place to make sure you were either productive or happy. I'm full time remote with a remote-first company and you do need to adjust how you communicate when you're used to in-office work. My concern with a "remote for the right person" situation would be that I would be forgotten and/or first neck on the chopping block when it came to layoffs. If the company had at least 20% of their team remote, I would consider it.
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Jan 29, 2021 00:09
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vonnegutt posted:I wouldn't. If you were hired with the expectation that it would be 100% remote with no future relocation, they most likely wouldn't have the established lines of communication, management, or processes in place to make sure you were either productive or happy. Yeah that’s more or less exactly where I am. I was especially discouraged when further questions on this topic launched into an aside about how they viewed face to face comms as critical for early stage startups. Onto the next one.
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Jan 29, 2021 00:20
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I have a bit of a dilemma. I am cozy at my current company: the work is easy, I’m fully remote, and I’ve survived a few layoffs and been promoted quickly. But I am offered a job with another company that increases my cash comp 1.5x. The company is substantially larger (1500 people) than my current company (200 people) and the work would be somewhat the same (same stack) but in a different vertical (e.g, Healthcare vs logistics). Logically it feels like a no brainer that I should switch because of the increase in cash comp.. Emotionally though, I feel safe at my current job. I feel like The COVID Times are making me less certain about everything and the thought of switching companies, getting up to speed on their stuff, etc, has a larger emotional toll than it normally would. In non-COVID Times I think I would take the job in a heartbeat though. Am I nuts? Anyone have a similar experience or can share some words of wisdom? Edit: massive typo on my part. The offering company only has 1500 people, not 1,500k Woodsy Owl fucked around with this message at 00:44 on Jan 30, 2021 |
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Jan 29, 2021 00:24
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Woodsy Owl posted:I have a bit of a dilemma. I am cozy at my current company: the work is easy, I’m fully remote, and I’ve survived a few layoffs and been promoted quickly. But I am offered a job with another company that increases my cash comp 1.5x. The company is substantially larger (1500k people) than my current company (200 people) and the work would be somewhat the same (same stack) but in a different vertical (e.g, Healthcare vs logistics). Take the money
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Jan 29, 2021 00:27
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Take the money, use said money to buy your retirement home in the Bahamas, and vacation there until said retirement Use the leftover money to buy a pina colada machine edit: unless you don't like pina coladas, in which case, keep the old job and drink beer on the couch
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Jan 29, 2021 00:34
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leper khan posted:Take the money Not empty quoting For real though maybe you'll dislike being at a much larger company but that's a well paid way to find out.
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Jan 29, 2021 00:37
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How do we all feel about bonuses? Are bonuses just a way for companies to keep money hostage to incentivize you to stick around, while justifying paying you less so they have the option of loving you by firing you before your bonus pays out?
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Jan 29, 2021 01:04
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Woodsy Owl posted:How do we all feel about bonuses? So they can have the option of loving you by just not paying the bonus for whatever reason they please. Bonuses are nice, but a higher bonus is not a substitute for real compensation, do not include a potential bonus when calculating your total compensation.
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Jan 29, 2021 01:09
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Bonus is the carrot they dangle in front of you, and from time to time you get to take a bite. Base comp is the hay that actually keeps you pulling that plow. Unless the bonus is paid out together with each paycheck, I don't count it. It's by definition "a little bit extra" unless you're a c level and have it guaranteed in your contract.
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Jan 29, 2021 01:38
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Find out how often they payout the full bonus. If they do it commonly then I'd count it higher than if they don't obviously. This is actually a good time to be asking for this as companies that don't want to pay out their bonuses will not have and blame covid. My personal experience is that bonuses in tech are small, 5% - 15%, and are almost always paid out at 100% or more. If anything RSUs are the carrot, but with them as well it's rare for an established company to use them as a stick in my experience.
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Jan 29, 2021 02:17
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Bonuses can be anywhere from a blatant lie that no one actually gets to just a normal part of your wages that they want to count separately from your salary for whatever reason. Determining where a given company lands is very important. Never counting bonuses as part of the total comp will make you pass on some very good offers, while counting it when you shouldn't have will obviously result in you getting hosed.
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Jan 29, 2021 04:07
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Plorkyeran posted:Bonuses can be anywhere from a blatant lie that no one actually gets to just a normal part of your wages that they want to count separately from your salary for whatever reason. Determining where a given company lands is very important. Never counting bonuses as part of the total comp will make you pass on some very good offers, while counting it when you shouldn't have will obviously result in you getting hosed. exactly this. like with most things, the answer is "once you're out of the newbie stage, don't rely one one-sentence advice that lacks nuance (except this sentence, it's cool and good and smart just like my good friend achmed jones)"
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Jan 29, 2021 04:17
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My understanding of bonuses is that they are good for: 1) Encouraging retention. People will stick around and not go job hunting elsewhere if they there's a big pile of due them if they hang around until March 2) Punishing departures. If you leave at any time other than the day you get your bonus, it's leaving money on the table (that the company puts right back into its pocket) 3) Payroll flexibility. If the company has a bad year, it's a lot easier to trim bonuses than it is to cut wages. 4) Also if you're firing people (for cause, or general downsizing) you save money by not having to pay them their bonus. 5) Because a bonus is essentially taking money that you might have gotten as wages and deferring it until next year, the company is essentially getting a zero-interest loan from the employee. 6) I assume there is also some tax benefit somewhere to marking some of your compensation as bonus vs. wages. For an employee, money now is always better than (the promise of) money later, so bonuses should be discounted (relative to wages) when considering compensation.
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Jan 29, 2021 04:26
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Bonus chat: My wife has a bonus as part of her compensation structure. For ~10 years it was pretty consistent, nearly quarterly, generous and pretty reliable Then they had a restructure, decided to lump it into a single lump sum annual thing The next year things were still tight so they decided to not pay out the bonus that year, but moved up the annual bonus for next year to the beginning of the next quarter. To us it just looked like she/we got the bonus 2 months late, but if you zoom way out, she didn't get any bonus for 4 quarters I think this year we're expecting 70% of her "projected" bonus that we calculated 5 years ago (yes, we do 5 year projections), and next year we'll be back to 100% of projected bonus The good news is that even without her bonus we can pay the mortgage, but any financial goals we have on off years, we have to push out further (still waiting on buying that vacation home + pina colada machine in the Bahamas). We're pretty sure that the next 5 years will be pretty good, but at the same time we're not going to bet the mortgage on that The bigger the company with the bigger the market share, the bigger the chances your bonus will get paid out Another thing to ask, is, does your bonus get paid out of group performance, personal performance, or company as a whole performance, or some combination. If you work for uber self driving, and Google sues your department for patent infringement, you might not get a bonus for three years in a row Hadlock fucked around with this message at 06:52 on Jan 29, 2021 |
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Jan 29, 2021 06:50
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Hadlock posted:Bonus chat: No, you just get the signing bonus instead of the performance bonus after the first time. Anyone in the 25-40% bonus range isn't staying with a missed bonus.
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Jan 29, 2021 07:17
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Hughlander posted:No, you just get the signing bonus instead of the performance bonus after the first time. Anyone in the 25-40% bonus range isn't staying with a missed bonus. Golden handcuffs, my friend. Not gonna get into further details but missing 2-3 years of bonus is not a huge issue thanks to long term compensation, in that very very specific situation In tech specifically though, yeah, anything less than a 5% annual raise + no bonus is a polite suggestion to find somewhere else to work, and you've probably been shortlisted to be laid off in the next downturn
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Jan 29, 2021 09:11
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Woodsy Owl posted:I have a bit of a dilemma. I am cozy at my current company: the work is easy, I’m fully remote, and I’ve survived a few layoffs and been promoted quickly. But I am offered a job with another company that increases my cash comp 1.5x. The company is substantially larger (1500k people) than my current company (200 people) and the work would be somewhat the same (same stack) but in a different vertical (e.g, Healthcare vs logistics). 1500k peeps is walmart or mcdonalds and if it's logistics it's walmart? it says here amazon is 500k peeps which would be the other putative logistics thing, and there don't exist private healthcare companies that big if you take an amazon dev job, it has a strong chance to be hell on earth! but take it anyways and job-hop out after you can't take it anymore, that's gonna be bigger total comp. a ____ major (tech major, logistics major, pharma major) is usually run basically as a weirdo suzerainty where the departments barely have anything to do with each other except the philosophy of "me against my brothers, me and my brothers against my cousins, me and my brothers and my cousins against the world" so there's not such a thing as consistency, whereas a 200 (really a 20) person company has no choice but to be consistent i worked at places that were vendors to walmart 3 times now and i can deffo tell you the future tech innovation r&d lab peeps had much better jobs than the ecommerce peeps who were failing all the time to grow as fast as amazon or, in fact, best buy, lol bob dobbs is dead fucked around with this message at 10:28 on Jan 29, 2021 |
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Jan 29, 2021 10:11
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FMguru posted:My understanding of bonuses is that they are good for: In my experience, every single management/exec level conversation about bonuses comes down to either payroll flexibility or aligning incentives (if the company has a great year, so do you). This is heavily weighted towards startups, but I've never heard any of those other things been mentioned when talking about bonuses.
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Jan 29, 2021 16:54
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The first and only bonus I have ever received was my first week of my first job, since I joined right when annual bonuses went out. During interviews they quoted a flat 5% bonus. In reality, 2.5% of that was my performance and the other 2.5% was the company's performance. My manager gave me the full 2.5% of mine since I had just joined and thus hadnt hosed up in any meaningful way yet. The company had just had an amazing year and been aquired by a larger company so clearly their performance was only 1% worth. I got a total of $45.
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Jan 29, 2021 17:05
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The biggest bonus I ever got was from a company that had already announced they were shuttering our group and laying us all off (I consider this bonus as one my boss fought for, not one the company gave). The second biggest bonus was from a pre-profit startup unexpectedly. Now I work at a tier-below-FAANG well known tech co, and there are zero bonuses (except probably for execs I'm sure). It's super company dependant: some places it's expected comp, some places it's an unexpected 'hey thanks for your work last year', some it's 'how did the company do'. Basically, you have to sus that out yourself: make sure you get paid overall, it doesn't really matter how it breaks down.
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Jan 29, 2021 17:35
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The only time I haven’t gotten my full bonus in ~4 years of working is when it gets pro-rated because I haven’t been at the company a full year. Last year we somehow even got 2x bonuses, even during the pandemic. So YMMV, clearly.
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Jan 29, 2021 18:14
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fourwood posted:The only time I haven’t gotten my full bonus in ~4 years of working is when it gets pro-rated because I haven’t been at the company a full year. Last year we somehow even got 2x bonuses, even during the pandemic. So YMMV, clearly. Double bonuses feel good.... In 2019 company closed my division a month before bonus, part of the severance was full bonus pay out, then joined another company and got 50% of the bonus there based on when I joined. Now I'm pushing to get my promotion through the VPs before this next bonus pays out 'cuz that'll up my target % a good deal.
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Jan 29, 2021 19:42
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I never got bonuses at my old job and in the fog of imposter syndrome assumed they weren’t a thing in tech because options and equity and whatever, while my sister was getting mid-four-figure bonuses as a lowly clerk/paralegal (she is now a lawyer getting five-figure bonuses). Got a modest (but unexpected) bonus at my new job though. 
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Jan 29, 2021 19:50
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