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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:
It’s going to pick forward or reverse based on what it thinks is best. It’s going to be lol considering how often cars are parked a few seconds from a wall or concrete pillar.
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Jan 30, 2021 01:44
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:I also don't think the car is going to select a gear for you - it's a fuckin EV, it doesn't have gears to select. The car is going to predict which way you are wanting to turn or whatever and illuminate the indicator. I can see how this could possibly kind of sort of work based on navigation routes but I don't know how this is going to work for freeway lane changes - though I suppose the vision is that freeway driving will be using some form of autonomy so the driver will never try to change lanes. I don’t really know what else to call the knob/dial/stalk/stick that you use to select drive, reverse and park other than a gear selector even if it’s not actually selecting a gear. But yes, at least according the latest Musk tweet, the car is going to guess whether you want to go in forward or reverse based on context(???).
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Jan 30, 2021 01:49
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If they expect to be able to go from point A to point B without human intervention it's going to be pretty good at picking a direction. Multi point turns are the only thing I can think of where it's not obvious. Maybe an empty parking lot when you could pick anything, but it'll default to forward. I'm sure it'll have gear position shown on the front screen, so it's not going to surprise you. The car already knows when you get in. Put foot on the brake and it picks a gear, put foot on accelerator and you're off. Simple enough. They also have millions of miles worth of data to do neural leaning against. I bet it's 99.9% accurate for 95% of drivers day 1 and will become 99.9% accurate for the remaining 5% of drivers with a month of training for your preference. Short version, you'll almost never interact with the touch screen anyway.
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Jan 30, 2021 03:21
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Deteriorata posted:We've been discussing the indicators being on the touchscreen. Going back and re-reading yeah we really are talking about all three, no wonder I lost track Elviscat posted:I have to back at least once, often twice to get out of my parking spot, having to dig through a touchscreen menu to select R would get old fast. Do we have any demonstration how Tesla will impliment touchscreen only P/R/D? Kinda want to see it for myself before making much more comment.
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Jan 30, 2021 03:30
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ilkhan posted:IThey also have millions of miles worth of data to do neural leaning against. I bet it's 99.9% accurate for 95% of drivers day 1 and will become 99.9% accurate for the remaining 5% of drivers with a month of training for your preference. This is an extremely naive view of the capabilities of neural networks and how Tesla appears to use them.
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Jan 30, 2021 03:43
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MrYenko posted:Pictured: Literal murder The steel cased torqueflite automatic was so tough that ads would show a driver pushing the D and R button while floored. My dad was a big fan of 50’s and 60’s Big Chrysler’s (300, Imperial) and these were beasts.
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Jan 30, 2021 03:57
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CAT INTERCEPTOR posted:Do we have any demonstration how Tesla will impliment touchscreen only P/R/D? Kinda want to see it for myself before making much more comment. Regardless of how it's implemented on a touch screen, it will be worse than being able to select d/r without taking your eyes away from, say, a busy parking lot. Or a kindergarten pick up / drop off zone.
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Jan 30, 2021 04:06
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ilkhan posted:I bet it's 99.9% accurate for 95% of drivers day 1 and will become 99.9% accurate for the remaining 5% of drivers with a month of training for your preference. How many wrong selections do you think that is for a year? How expensive do you think that'll get? Do you still think it's a good idea?
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Jan 30, 2021 05:04
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If you come to a full stop in a parking lot, you may or may not want to change direction. If a computer is supposed to be guessing that, there's going to be a lot of crashes as people get surprise reverse.
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Jan 30, 2021 05:19
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pun pundit posted:Regardless of how it's implemented on a touch screen, it will be worse than being able to select d/r without taking your eyes away from, say, a busy parking lot. Or a kindergarten pick up / drop off zone. As said, still would prefer to see it for myself - I could see ways it can be done without being a horror. (That said Tesla so .....) ilkhan posted:I'm sure it'll have gear position shown on the front screen, so it's not going to surprise you. The car already knows when you get in. Put foot on the brake and it picks a gear, put foot on accelerator and you're off. Simple enough. They also have millions of miles worth of data to do neural leaning against. I bet it's 99.9% accurate for 95% of drivers day 1 and will become 99.9% accurate for the remaining 5% of drivers with a month of training for your preference. 99.9% is terrible for a car, given the number of actions a driver takes and Godholio not unresonably outlined. Edit : Removing RCP error on my part CAT INTERCEPTOR fucked around with this message at 07:53 on Jan 30, 2021 |
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Jan 30, 2021 05:23
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The turn indicators are still on the steering wheel as buttons instead of a stalk.
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Jan 30, 2021 06:41
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Ethereal posted:The turn indicators are still on the steering wheel as buttons instead of a stalk.  My R-C-P is terrible today by the looks of it
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Jan 30, 2021 07:52
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Haha I hadn't spotted that the central spokes of that steering wheel are also in the shape of the Tesla "IUD" logo. Really horrible design. Looking forward to a lot more amusing parking accidents from the removal of the physical PRND controls. https://youtu.be/cGcIFgAzJR8 (yes they have physical controls but the guy just had it in HOLD and hit the go pedal) E: even better, it guesses which way you want to go? Hahaha amazing https://twitter.com/Keubiko/status/1355267471620636673 knox_harrington fucked around with this message at 08:26 on Jan 30, 2021 |
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Jan 30, 2021 08:22
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Here lies the body of Jonathan Blake
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Jan 30, 2021 10:09
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Ethereal posted:The turn indicators are still on the steering wheel as buttons instead of a stalk. So does the left button signal left or right when the wheel is inverted? Is there a point where the function of the buttons switches over?
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Jan 30, 2021 11:43
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So two separate concepts - I think shifter on touchscreen is fine, but "car guesses forward / reverse / park" is a truly bad idea.
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Jan 30, 2021 15:12
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Yeep posted:So does the left button signal left or right when the wheel is inverted? Is there a point where the function of the buttons switches over? in what possible universe are you engaging your turn signal with the wheel inverted? this is a fake problem.
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Jan 30, 2021 15:13
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CAT INTERCEPTOR posted:99.9% is terrible for a car, given the number of actions a driver takes and Godholio not unresonably outlined.
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Jan 30, 2021 15:25
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Not to be a Musk apologist, but I think the gear change thing will be fine, even if it’s a little quirky. You get in the car, buckle up hit the break, car sees a wall in front of it, chimes and shows a big R on screen. You back out of the garage onto the street, push the break again to stop, car knows it just reversed and sees open road in front of it, chimes and shows a big D on the screen (phrasing), and you’re on your way. I don’t get the freakout over the possibility of “taking your eyes off the road!!” to shift gears. You stop moving to switch gears right? Or is everyone just just slamming it into drive while going 15mph in reverse?
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Jan 30, 2021 16:35
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It's a stupid feature that doesn't solve a problem.
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Jan 30, 2021 16:55
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A touchscreen selector without question increases the likelihood of engaging the wrong mode, and given old people are constantly loving up parking and driving into the sea or whatever this means that kind of thing will happen more frequently. Its not about whether a fully competent person can do it right, but tired, or old, or otherwise incompetent people. There is no reason to do this other than save $20 on a selector stalk. And the idea the car decides to take itself out of Park is just horrible.
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Jan 30, 2021 16:57
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ilkhan posted:Fine. Add as many nines as you need to be satisfied. Ah yes, like most extremely challenging problems it’s very easy to just arbitrarily add accuracy. You literally believe that machine learning is magic. And even if it was Tesla doesn’t use it for driving logic or prediction, just image recognition and spatial awareness.
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Jan 30, 2021 17:50
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borkencode posted:Not to be a Musk apologist, but I think the gear change thing will be fine, even if it’s a little quirky. You get in the car, buckle up hit the break, car sees a wall in front of it, chimes and shows a big R on screen. You back out of the garage onto the street, push the break again to stop, car knows it just reversed and sees open road in front of it, chimes and shows a big D on the screen (phrasing), and you’re on your way. Okay, now how about when you pull along side a space you’re considering parallel parking in. Does the car stay in drive or go into reverse? Which behavior do you want? You come to a stop in a parking lot where there open spots both ahead and behind you. Are you going to back into a space or pull in forward? Which behavior do you want? You back out of your drive into the street and stop, but think maybe you should back up a few more feet and straighten out more to provide more clearance to get around the street parked car in front of you. Does the car decide for you that you’ve got enough room and put it in drive? Even assuming that the car somehow makes you aware of what it’s doing and you aren’t surprised to find yourself going in the wrong direction every time it guesses wrong in a situation like that is going to require more work from the driver just to correct the error. What a lovely thing to have to contend with every thing you drive. You can’t even build up muscle memory for dealing with it because it’s entirely opaque so you’ll never know when it’s going to guess right or wrong, and any given update to the prediction algorithm could change the behavior so you might wake up way day and have it make a completely different choice than it did the day before during some routine interaction.
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Jan 30, 2021 18:11
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One of the big selling points of FSD is you can tap the stalk and it changes lanes on its own, right? (assuming it doesn't just cancel) I feel like that makes it more difficult to have it not on the steering wheel. No one's gonna take their hands too far off the thing that controls where the car is going to... change where the car is going. ilkhan posted:Did they confirm its the new cell size? I think Musk said LR and Plaid still use 18650s. Plaid+ will use structural 4680s.
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Jan 30, 2021 18:15
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knox_harrington posted:E: even better, it guesses which way you want to go? Hahaha amazing 
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Jan 30, 2021 18:27
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Gratuitous Taycan shot. The Pirelli P Zero Winters seem to be OK
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Jan 30, 2021 18:35
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I was next to a new Model Y at the park parking lot today- they come with continentals? Ew.
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Jan 30, 2021 18:37
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YOLOsubmarine posted:Okay, now how about when you pull along side a space you’re considering parallel parking in. Does the car stay in drive or go into reverse? Which behavior do you want? Here's what actually happens in those scenarios. You pull alongside a line of cars preparing to parallel park (and assuming you want to do it yourself instead of let it auto-park). You look at the screen and hit the R button. You continue to look at the screen as it displays a 360 top down view of your surroundings from all the assorted cameras. You complete the maneuver and, from the same screen, press P.
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Jan 30, 2021 18:50
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ilkhan posted:Fine. Add as many nines as you need to be satisfied. Elon Musk has completely broken peoples brains, this post is proof. Tesla won’t even bother figuring out how accurate it’s gear selection algorithm is, it’ll throw it out there for the public to test it, put people at risk and when they hurt/kill maim, they’ll settle out of court and make people sign NDAs. I don’t care if it’s 99.999% accurate. It’s ridiculously stupid to replace a shift knob with cameras and AI. This is why I’ll never buy a Tesla I guess.
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Jan 30, 2021 18:57
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Finger Prince posted:Here's what actually happens in those scenarios. You pull alongside a line of cars preparing to parallel park (and assuming you want to do it yourself instead of let it auto-park). You look at the screen and hit the R button. You continue to look at the screen as it displays a 360 top down view of your surroundings from all the assorted cameras. You complete the maneuver and, from the same screen, press P. So you’re saying the car doesn’t need to attempt to guess which direction you can’t to drive in and engage that gear for you?! Novel concept, please send note to Tesla.
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Jan 30, 2021 18:59
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When the Model S refresh was announced so soon after I got my Model S Performance I was a little bummed, but on second thought I think my resale will be even stronger given the questionable features on the new ones and associated price hikes. I ended up getting mine for only a few thousand more than the new Long Range will be, and who knows when you'll be able to get one delivered. Looking at their site, there are only 4 new ones left in SoCal inventory and the cheapest one is $95K for a demo. Anyway the car seems OK after putting 1,000 or so miles on it. It's pretty boring to drive but does what it needs to do and has an excess of power whenever you want it. It's the only car I've owned where other people seem genuinely impressed by it - turns out no one really cares about hand-built German V8s but a big touchscreen is apparently considered amazing, to say nothing of the instant torque. I do miss having engine noise though. heated game moment fucked around with this message at 19:19 on Jan 30, 2021 |
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Jan 30, 2021 19:11
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Finger Prince posted:Here's what actually happens in those scenarios. You pull alongside a line of cars preparing to parallel park (and assuming you want to do it yourself instead of let it auto-park). You look at the screen and hit the R button. You continue to look at the screen as it displays a 360 top down view of your surroundings from all the assorted cameras. You complete the maneuver and, from the same screen, press P. Now do it again, but you're 88 years old, there's a bunch of traffic, cars are honking, and you're scared. Alternately, explain how this is better than all existing implentations.
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Jan 30, 2021 19:23
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:in what possible universe are you engaging your turn signal with the wheel inverted? this is a fake problem. Going around a small roundabout, signalling that you're leaving at the following turnoff. I do this every day.
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Jan 30, 2021 19:32
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heated game moment posted:When the Model S refresh was announced so soon after I got my Model S Performance I was a little bummed, but on second thought I think my resale will be even stronger given the questionable features on the new ones and associated price hikes. I ended up getting mine for only a few thousand more than the new Long Range will be, and who knows when you'll be able to get one delivered. I was worried about resale value on my 2018 S7D, but looking at the refresh - I'm not anymore. The dipshit that came up with that steering wheel + no stalks combo should be strapped to a rocket and shot into the sun.
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Jan 30, 2021 19:39
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Wibla posted:I was worried about resale value on my 2018 S7D, but looking at the refresh - I'm not anymore. The dipshit that came up with that steering wheel + no stalks combo should be strapped to a rocket and shot into the sun. Surely to Mars would be more on brand
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Jan 30, 2021 20:30
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People here seems to ignore the techbro target users, they are going to use an arcade videogame model of "stopped car and driver pushing throttle pedal" means forward motion while "stopped car pushing brake pedal" means reverse motion. Doing AI ML to guess is more cumbersome than that.
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Jan 30, 2021 20:32
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YOLOsubmarine posted:So you’re saying the car doesn’t need to attempt to guess which direction you can’t to drive in and engage that gear for you?! Novel concept, please send note to Tesla. I'm not talking about that. I'm strictly saying that putting the drive selector on the touchscreen isn't a bad idea any more than it is a good idea. It doesn't need to be a separate control interface. Godholio posted:Now do it again, but you're 88 years old, there's a bunch of traffic, cars are honking, and you're scared. Here are some existing implementations.       Putting the control on the screen you're going to look at anyway doesn't seem that terrible. And although it really isn't pertinent to this conversation, a frightened 80 year old trying to parallel park in a busy city ought to use auto park, and a modern car with collision avoidance ought to stop the car before it crashes into an obstacle, if said frightened 80 year old pressed the R button by mistake and floored it. At least that's the idea, and it has nothing to do with Tesla.
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Jan 30, 2021 20:32
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Finger Prince posted:I'm not talking about that. I'm strictly saying that putting the drive selector on the touchscreen isn't a bad idea any more than it is a good idea. It doesn't need to be a separate control interface. All the photos you included show interfaces that have a specific physical action that provides feedback according to the different mode that's selected. I feel I shouldn't have to point out that tapping a touchscreen does not do those things. Could the accelerator be controlled through the touchscreen? Steering? Why not?
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Jan 30, 2021 20:41
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Finger Prince posted:I'm not talking about that. I'm strictly saying that putting the drive selector on the touchscreen isn't a bad idea any more than it is a good idea. It doesn't need to be a separate control interface. Then why did you respond to a post about something completely different? The touchscreen implementation could range from dangerous to merely annoying to mostly inoffensive, but that is completely separate from the issue of the car making decisions about your direction of travel for you. Of course, a coworker of mine had the MCU screen just randomly stop working while driving on the highway and “not being able to shift car out of drive because the touchscreen stopped working” is a pretty unpleasant failure mode. Edit: I also think there’s a flawed assumption that everyone is and should be looking at the touchscreen when they park. It’s not a substitute for situational awareness and even with a backup camera or top down 360 view you should be using your windows and mirrors as well. And auto-park is not the solution, it’s far from perfect. This is the sort of “it works in these narrowly tailored situations so it’ll work anywhere” is how you end up with door handles that can’t be opened when it’s cold outside because the car was developed in California. Or, as above, someone not considering why you might want to be turning in one direction while signaling in another because roundabouts aren’t a regular occurrence. YOLOsubmarine fucked around with this message at 20:54 on Jan 30, 2021 |
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Jan 30, 2021 20:47
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knox_harrington posted:All the photos you included show interfaces that have a specific physical action that provides feedback according to the different mode that's selected. I feel I shouldn't have to point out that tapping a touchscreen does not do those things. Think for just a second about all of those. What is the feedback? Does it differ between R, or D, or some other mode? Tap a momentary lever forward to put it in reverse. Tap a momentary lever forward to also put it in park. Same feedback, same motion. Did I do one tap or two? Got to look for a tiny illuminated letter to tell. Look at the Lincoln one and tell me it's substantially better than the exact same thing on a touchscreen.
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Jan 30, 2021 20:51
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