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Polo-Rican posted:Just finished the last episode. If you were to watch just the first few episodes and the last, it might seem like there's some coherent plot... I like the concept of the trogs coming back to save the kingdom. But practically nothing else in the season matters - the arch druidess plot, the Steamland plot, Derek's plotline, the "gathering an army" plot, the green smoke, etc. And normally it's fine if plot stuff in a cartoon doesn't matter... most individual episodes of simpsons, futurama, etc, don't matter... But Disenchantment gives up so many opportunities for humor and character-building in order to chase these plotlines, so it's pretty insane that they don't tie into the rest of the show at all. I think there are two factions involved in the production of it. One wants to stick to the 1990s era one-off comedy shots that don't care about continuity and the other wants to write like a 2010s era serialized storyline that encompasses the entire run of the show start to finish. It doesn't work like Futurama or other reset-button type multi-season shows that still have plot development because the jokes are fighting with the show itself. I don't think that's the entire problem though because a lot of random non-comedy stuff also makes no sense. One that sticks out to me is when they were in the Trog tunnels. So Dagmar is tricking Bean into the whole prophecy thing by being nice to her. Most of an episode goes into this. Then the music box Dagmar has been using on Bean wakes her up and leads her into the tunnels in the middle of the night where she ends up going to Dagmar's room Then Bean knocks, which Dagmar ignores, then Bean comes in and talks to her about the music box, which she also ignores, until they come face to face with Dagmar eating Trog brains So Dagmar being revealed now goes bad, captures Bean and talks about how it's a shame it had to end up that way. By every indication Dagmar ratted herself out because she couldn't keep up the gimmick for one episode but acts like it was an accident? Is the music box coming from something/someone else and the show hasn't bothered to explain it in 30 episodes other than Dagmar explicitly taking credit for the music box? Was it not actually an accident and she just decided in the middle of the night to confront Bean in the weirdest way imaginable? Why not just throw her in a prison cell normally? Did Dagmar wake up Bean to have her discover the Trog elixir for some reason and accidentally get caught secretly(but not very) eating Trog brains? You can say the show has yet-unseen plot reveals that will make this stuff make sense or give it a huge benefit of the doubt and make up motivations for Dagmar (she's lazy and got impatient and was also dumb) but the Steamland freakshow doesn't make me that optimistic. "Okay, that's it, I saved the last Freak, we can go now" *later* "Wait! The Last Freak!" *runs back* "Mora! The most obvious cage in the entire room! Directly across from Elfo's! We forgot you existed! Everyone was almost looking directly at you the entire time!"  Also both of these nonsensical plot points were at the end of an episode. I don't know if that has something to do with why poo poo is making no sense. Almost like someone wants Episode 2-6 to be the Mora Romance episode and in their mind that includes the introduction between Bean and Mora, so they can't meet in 2-5 when the freakshow escape occurs during the freakshow episode but 2-6 has so much Mora/Bean plot that we also can't have the entire Freakshow escape (Which has to go in the freakshow episode) and natural introduction also take place there. Then they are just too stubborn or lazy to have Mora escape through the hatch by herself in the background or something. Bean had to rescue her from her tank in their romance episode, which can't also be the episode where the escape takes place. 2-5 the escape episode must also end with the citywide blackout which takes place after the escape itself but before 2-6 where the introduction takes place. Basically I'm getting real George Lucas vibes right now 
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Jan 28, 2021 10:28
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Rectal Death Adept posted:I think there are two factions involved in the production of it. One wants to stick to the 1990s era one-off comedy shots that don't care about continuity and the other wants to write like a 2010s era serialized storyline that encompasses the entire run of the show start to finish. It doesn't work like Futurama or other reset-button type multi-season shows that still have plot development because the jokes are fighting with the show itself. I wonder if the factions are the pure writers vs the realities of making a fairly expensive show. Like I wonder if in the plot they just left steamland when the plot called for it. But they had produced a certain number of backgrounds and sequences and just had to cram them in. Like I wonder if they had the mirror sequence in the episode it made sense in and they sent it off to get rendered, then cut it, then someone said "no, find a place for it" and had them have to go back. Or like, I wonder if oona naturally left and in the script as planned that was that. But someone pointed out if the archedukesse and oona was gone that they had written tress mcneil's big roles out of the plot. so oona had to come back Like I wonder if there is a big conflict between the pure story someone is writing, and the realities of making a show that seems like it costs a lot. A lot of other story heavy cartoons feel like either they have everything planned perfectly in advance, or else are using very very cheap production where they can just do whatever. This show has every episode have a bunch of very complex backgrounds and effect shots that they probably have to plan in early.
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Jan 28, 2021 13:29
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Rectal Death Adept posted:Bean comes in and talks to her about the music box, which she also ignores, until they come face to face with Dagmar eating Trog brains This specific part of the story threw me for a loop. I think the writers were thinking what you were thinking: Dagmar is seen eating trog brains = Dagmar is evil. The problem is: eating brains doesn't really clearly signal "being evil," it's just really weird. I expected Dagmar to say something like "ahh, you caught me... I've just been using these trogs... you see, eating their brains amplifies my magical powers! Soon I will be the most powerful sorceress in the world! Join me Bean, you can be at my side!!" Instead she says nothing and tosses bean into a dungeon. What was Dagmar's motivation? What was her plan? Knowing this show, there will be one scene in season 14 episode 6 where dagmar shows up and starts talking about trog brains
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Jan 28, 2021 15:24
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Polo-Rican posted:This specific part of the story threw me for a loop. I think the writers were thinking what you were thinking: Dagmar is seen eating trog brains = Dagmar is evil. The problem is: eating brains doesn't really clearly signal "being evil," it's just really weird. I expected Dagmar to say something like "ahh, you caught me... I've just been using these trogs... you see, eating their brains amplifies my magical powers! Soon I will be the most powerful sorceress in the world! Join me Bean, you can be at my side!!" Instead she says nothing and tosses bean into a dungeon. What was Dagmar's motivation? What was her plan? Knowing this show, there will be one scene in season 14 episode 6 where dagmar shows up and starts talking about trog brains Like, lore wise, it loosely makes sense, Dagmar is the escaped queen of Maru, where maru traded the brains of the royalty for infernal magic through an evil weird screw crown. So her consuming brains for evil hell powers makes sense. Thematically. implementation in the story though? Like everyone said, oof. They really did not get that through at all. And the plot beats are so illogical. (and with the way this show is, you almost feel like you are at a disadvantage if you remember things that happened in other episodes. since they are so frequently reconned)
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Jan 28, 2021 15:56
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Phenotype posted:This show, man. I would not have believed you if you told me there was a Matt Groenig show that I just could not push myself to watch all the way through. Season 1 is probably the best part of the show, especially the end of it.
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Jan 28, 2021 16:41
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I still enjoy the new Simpsons!
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I watched the entirety of season three, and forgot Maru was a thing that exists in this series until I saw people talking about it. Normally I remember tons of trivial TV things, but I forget massive plot points with this show. This really is one of the strangest things airing. I have every intention watching the next season, but multiple aspects of this show fail.
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Jan 28, 2021 17:45
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Nichael posted:I watched the entirety of season three, and forgot Maru was a thing that exists in this series until I saw people talking about it. Normally I remember tons of trivial TV things, but I forget massive plot points with this show. It feels like a show that actively punishes you for remembering things. Like people keep bringing up these minor inconsistencies in the story, things that if they were in any other cartoon no one would care. If something moved around between scenes in futurama no one would bring it up and someone would call you a dork if you pointed out that one time they show the inside of bender's chest it's totally different than another time. But in this show, like sometimes they decide it matters and sometimes you are supposed to forget.
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Jan 28, 2021 20:53
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I also rewatched this and did they ever explain why the elves settled in dreamland after helping un-petrify people instead of going back to elfwood? Or is it just "disenchantment gonna disenchantment"
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Jan 28, 2021 22:35
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Zlodo posted:I also rewatched this and did they ever explain why the elves settled in dreamland after helping un-petrify people instead of going back to elfwood? Leavo found that this is what he was looking for and told the king.
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Jan 28, 2021 22:39
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Rectal Death Adept posted:I think there are two factions involved in the production of it. One wants to stick to the 1990s era one-off comedy shots that don't care about continuity and the other wants to write like a 2010s era serialized storyline that encompasses the entire run of the show start to finish. It doesn't work like Futurama or other reset-button type multi-season shows that still have plot development because the jokes are fighting with the show itself. If that were the case whichever faction doesn't include the showrunner would have been replaced with people willing to carry out his vision. A TV show production isn't some kind of democracy, it's strictly a dictatorship.
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Jan 29, 2021 08:29
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Something they didn't go into is ELFO'S SECRET MOTHER!!! Who cares? No one.
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Jan 29, 2021 09:22
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Huh. Is the music box sentient? Why the gently caress *ARE* all the story beats duplicated. ... I think the last two pages broke my suspension of disbelief. Now I am sad.
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Jan 29, 2021 10:58
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BrotherJayne posted:Huh. Yeah see that's why I don't consider it nitpicking. Someone could be like "Why do they have a plague patrol for laughs but no visible signs of plague in their society! Bean was in a plague pit she should be sick" That's Nitpicking. Someone could say "How can the knights go on these quests without provisions! they are covering what seems like thousands of miles!" That's Nitpicking. But when the entire setup of 2 episodes is that Dagmar gets caught unaware, apparently by herself, then it seems like a legitimate question. She told on herself and ruins her own plan with the music box? The family curse is supposed to be madness and hallucinations so maybe Bean imagined it at the perfect time? Is some other as of yet unseen benefactor using it too? Was it a legit mistake due to lovely writing? Then you get like 3+ of these in a 10 episode season it's easy to get less and less enjoyment from the fun setting and funny one off bits/lines they do. They've got me. I'm watching. I like the show but the equivalent would be Bojack Horseman explicitly calling the cops on himself, being surprised when they show up and arrest him ten minutes later, seriously acting like he has no idea how it happened and the plot acts like that was what actually happened and the show just ignores its own setup. There might be a funny joke in there about an animal cop but the scene makes no sense.
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Jan 29, 2021 11:26
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Norwegian Rudo posted:If that were the case whichever faction doesn't include the showrunner would have been replaced with people willing to carry out his vision. A TV show production isn't some kind of democracy, it's strictly a dictatorship. That's why I feel like it's more like a game design studio. There's a bunch of writers who work separately and someone brings their ideas together but they do it in a bit of a poo poo way because nobody's QUITE communicating with each other properly. The army storyline is still the weirdest one. It'd work almost fine in a show that's not trying to serialise.
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Jan 29, 2021 13:17
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Norwegian Rudo posted:If that were the case whichever faction doesn't include the showrunner would have been replaced with people willing to carry out his vision. A TV show production isn't some kind of democracy, it's strictly a dictatorship. This show has three show runners. All of which have exclusively worked on intensely episodic cartoons. I imagine they are all trying very hard to do the whole episodic thing and just.... literally are bad at it. Like I am sure they are taking their decades of experience and doing setups that work well if you are making simpsons or futurama that are just falling apart to write a story. Like I can just imagine them sitting down and assigning one writer to write episode 1,2 and 3 and another writer to write episode 4,5 and 6 and both scripts being due the same day and just not grasping why the writers can't do that when that was never a problem on simpsons. Or ordering an effects shot at the same point in the process they would in futurama and getting bitten in the rear end that rewrites ruined it and then having an out of place scene to show. Every "this plot point happens 3 times before it sticks" thing makes sense if the guy writing episode 5 can't get a clear answer if the plot he's writing from actually happened in episode 4 or not.
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Jan 29, 2021 13:51
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Taear posted:That's why I feel like it's more like a game design studio. There's a bunch of writers who work separately and someone brings their ideas together but they do it in a bit of a poo poo way because nobody's QUITE communicating with each other properly. No, see, the Trogs slap their butts in the forest for some reason. This means the army went back to it's home planet? Which Elfo said as a legit funny joke in Season One, when everyone is having a secret huddle and his contribution is a hastily whispered "One time.....my daddy....took me into the woods....and slapped me on the bum bum." He said it again during the Heist episode with the Trolls that are almost identical to Elves. It could either be a coincidence that both jokes are similar, and the trogs were doing something wacky that the other characters reacted weirdly to, or the show could be laying Plot Seed #86 and suggesting weird forest butt slapping is important somehow. They may or may not mention it for 2-3 years so it may just join the other half dozen things that are either poorly planned plot or outright bad writing. I mean who really cares? It's butt slapping. It's just been brought up every season for some reason and the trog stuff seemed weirdly important. Maybe the show will only make sense once it's had a full run, and if it gets cancelled poo poo like the butt slapping, music box, finger lightning, spike crowns, trogs, trog slime, dreamland magic, cursed Maru families, Cursed Dreamland families, secret societies, other secret societies and anything else I'm forgetting will just forever be a mystery or half-assedly resolved in 5 years during a netflix movie that tries to tie everything up.
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Jan 29, 2021 14:05
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Norwegian Rudo posted:If that were the case whichever faction doesn't include the showrunner would have been replaced with people willing to carry out his vision. A TV show production isn't some kind of democracy, it's strictly a dictatorship. I mean, it's completely impossible to say what the staff dynamics are like on a production. These things can be complicated. I noticed that Matt Greoning's son is one of the writers on this show - having the boss' kid on staff is one example of how things can suddenly get very complicated and politically taxing. But this is also pure speculation, just like any other theory in this thread. There are all kinds of reasons why a creative project doesn't quite come together - often these can be completely out of the writers' hands. We just have no way of knowing why the show doesn't quite work.
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Jan 29, 2021 14:14
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Yes you're all making excellent points but I think there's one important thing you're all forgetting: Zog honk honk ha ha funny 
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Jan 29, 2021 14:31
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Jan 29, 2021 14:39
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Rectal Death Adept posted:Yeah see that's why I don't consider it nitpicking. 'zactly. It's pretty bulletproof as an example of something having gone wrong in the concept or writing, and totally blows some holes in my ability to ignore stuff that's off with the show. I mean, I'm still gonna watch, but oof owch owee my bones
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Jan 29, 2021 17:40
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twistedmentat posted:Something they didn't go into is ELFO'S SECRET MOTHER!!! You know whats more annoying? Elfo's dad. They make a huge deal about no elf ever leaving elfwood, and leavo (and returno, who never returned) being some sort of legendary huge deal that had actually gone out through the wall. Then elfo's dad is just a traveling candy salesman? There is literally no indication elfwood had any contact with the outside world before they mentioned that. Elfo didn't even know what blood was before he left. Also why is elfo's dad like 80 years old? Elfo seems like he's beans age. (or equivalent) why is elfo's dad an extremely elderly man? Like bean's dad is like 45, and elfo's dad is grandpa simpson. Like in the end, who cares, this is all nitpicking, but it's a core issue with this show, if we are supposed to care so super deeply about the lore of his mom, why write his dad as such an inconsistent joke character?
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Jan 29, 2021 18:17
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So yeah I agree that this show is only okay and needs to decide if it wants to have an overarching plot or not, but I think one of the mostly weirdly bad aspects of this show is the music. It’s quiet when it needs to be loud and it feels like the writers WANT a certain vibe during some scenes that ends up being either silent or just having a few guitar plucks in the background or something. The weirdest scene in this whole show to me is in Hell when Elfo is getting smashed up hilariously between gears and stuff, and there’s no background music whatsoever. And it weirds me out because it’s Mark Mothersbaugh who’s been doing TV and game music for like centuries now! Are they giving him only $5 to do this show or something
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Jan 29, 2021 23:43
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I think the army running away from the Trogs isn't hard to understand. They are a bunch of cowards and seeing a bunch of weird little people spanking each other was too much for them, so they ran off. Also i think a lot of problems are from the writers wanting EVERYTHING to be a mystery.
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Jan 29, 2021 23:54
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thanks alot assbag posted:So yeah I agree that this show is only okay and needs to decide if it wants to have an overarching plot or not, but I think one of the mostly weirdly bad aspects of this show is the music. It’s quiet when it needs to be loud and it feels like the writers WANT a certain vibe during some scenes that ends up being either silent or just having a few guitar plucks in the background or something. The weirdest scene in this whole show to me is in Hell when Elfo is getting smashed up hilariously between gears and stuff, and there’s no background music whatsoever. I actually really like the score, and it's one of the reasons why I'm disappointed the rest of the show isn't better.
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Jan 30, 2021 01:21
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Wait, wait, wait wait. I think I just realized something. The army seeing the butt slapping sexy cult and freaking out was foreshadowing zog seeing the sex cult and freaking out. That was both the same episode. The army thing was to establish people (and eel men) in dreamland suddenly freak out at sex cults
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Jan 30, 2021 04:20
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Wait, wait, wait wait. I think the bum slapping thing freaking out the "army" was just to show that the "army" was pathetic. Trixie also told Elfo that the best sex of his life would have to wait, so I'm not sure they did anything other than participate in a religious ceremony in which they slapped their full moons at the full moon. The bit with Zøg, like I posted about earlier (and confirmed after watching this season again), is heavily foreshadowed in that very episode: Odval and Sorcerio both know that any surprise will probably push an already heavily unstable Zøg over the edge, so Odval hypnotizes him to compel him to go to the basement at a specific time, promising him a protein-heavy feast. So when he finally makes his way there, instead of a feast, he finds a sex cult. Maybe you wouldn't be surprised if, when you went out to a restaurant, they brought you to an orgy instead of your dinner table. But for most of us mere mortals, that kind of thing is unexpected. When you take into account that they'd spent a whole episode or two showing that anything surprising or upsetting would send him into a fit of madness, so really, it's more of a surprise + crazy person = psychotic episode type of thing. I also got the impression that Odval and Sorcerio, when they realized that Oona and Bean were onto them, manipulated them so that they would be there and naked when Zøg walked in. Seeing an orgy when you are mentally unstable and expecting a feast is a surprise; seeing one involving your daughter and ex-wife is kind-of shocking.
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Jan 30, 2021 04:35
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I do like the joke about how the Kings are all alphabetical.
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Jan 30, 2021 10:49
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I do get that the Army was weak/pathetic and creeped out by the Trogs which is why they all quit, but it felt like Poochie going back to his home planet. You have the whole episode setting up the army and it's like "Woah! Look at that!" *everyone scatters in all directions instantly and that subplot is done forever, never to be mentioned again* It reminds me of other legendary bad writing from the show Defiance, where they raise up an army of townspeople too. They go through the drill sergeant routine and everything. Later the Army gets wiped out completely and the drill sergeant guy has to be real sad and upset about losing all of these people he nurtured. He got them killed after all. Real survivors guilt stuff. Drunken flashback and smashing stuff scene. Dramatic music. The problem is that they raised the army in like 30 seconds of screentime, they died in almost the next scene, and the dramatic flashbacks he had about them five minutes later were of the only footage they had of the army before they died, which was the 30 second drill sergeant routine. I don't even think they had names. If you are extremely generous to the material you can explain what they were attempting if you dance around what they actually did. Rectal Death Adept fucked around with this message at 14:04 on Jan 30, 2021 |
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Jan 30, 2021 13:56
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:You know whats more annoying? Until this post I assumed elves came from mushrooms.
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Jan 30, 2021 17:33
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:The army thing was to establish people (and eel men) in dreamland suddenly freak out at sex cults nah, there's that sex cult the castle employees have
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Jan 30, 2021 17:38
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Empty Sandwich posted:nah, there's that sex cult the castle employees have That is what I mean. You know in sitcoms where like, one episode will be about a character getting over a gambling problem or something when no episode before or after shows they have a gambling problem? I think this might be like that. The army freaking out extremely bad about seeing a sex cult is earlier in the same episode as zog getting driven permanently insane by seeing his wife and daughter in a sex cult. I think it was a weird attempt to suddenly establish people extremely care about seeing sex cults after a whole series of episodes no one cared at all.
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Jan 30, 2021 21:17
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:That is what I mean. I've thought about this some more, and I just don't buy it, because it's not established (or even suggested, really) that the Trøg ritual is sexual at all in the first place, much less that sex is the thing that squicked the army into total desertion. And, driving Zøg permanently insane required him to already be 97% insane and hypnotized at the same time, and even then, it was a Batman gambit. Also, it isn't established, or even suggested, that the sex cult has disbanded, or that anyone in it is in any way ashamed of their connection to it. Now, if they do make those changes next season, then I'll rethink my take on this. But right now, I'm just not seeing it. It feels like a stretch.
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Jan 30, 2021 21:48
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That's the funny thing, on paper of course they are related, they happened within 10 minutes of each other in the same episode. Two examples of someone seeing nudity in a cult ritual then bugging out and running away. But the way this show is written, it really does seem it's just two unrelated things that actually had nothing to do with each other and similarity was unintentional. There is no actual indication they are meant to parallel each other, despite being in theory extremely similar series of events. They don't have any real thematic connection or anything and don't overlap in function in the plot and there is no connective tissue to make it a callback or foreshadowing.
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Jan 30, 2021 22:55
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Elephanthead posted:Until this post I assumed elves came from mushrooms. 
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Jan 31, 2021 18:57
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I wished the mermaid plot actually went somewhere. The necklace washing up onshore actually made the ending stupider than if it was just a dream. Like the mermaid promises Bean not to let her down and then leaves her back on the beach? Or the necklace is just completely random and it was just a dream. It honestly feels like a stinger someone came up with in the writing room and no one bothered to think about it. Like, the cliched way it would work would be if it's obvious the relationship wouldn't work and that's why she left. But no mermaid batted an eye when she brought Bean and like, was she just bullshitting the entire time?
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Feb 2, 2021 07:01
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the show feels like they had a huge pile of index cards with stuff they thought would be cool and then just randomly pinned them up on the wall in no particular order
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Feb 2, 2021 13:52
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Just a gut feeling but I feel like maybe the Mermaid plot will be a thing in an upcoming season, when Bean needs some help or whatnot, riding in with Oona.
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Feb 2, 2021 14:03
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I think it's very safe to assume they don't know if it will show up again, and they wrote it the way they did so it can be a hanging thread that future writers can pick up or not pick up with no particular plan. This show loves to just have things happen that are new plot threads that just hang and get forgotten or show up again at a whim. So in two seasons maybe mora will show up again, or will never show up, or maybe 2 episodes in a row mora will show up seemingly independently like the two writers using her didn't consult the other.
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Feb 2, 2021 14:18
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Yeah sorry let me re-word how I think this goes in the writer's room: Some new problem happens in S4 and the writers who have clearly telegraphed Oona coming back remember that the Mermaids exist and tack them on. I think my approach to watching S4 should be to just stop hoping for any of this to make sense and just try to enjoy the one or two jokes per episode that land. Unfortunately I've had to make that my approach for far too many TV shows lately 
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Feb 2, 2021 14:53
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:I think it's very safe to assume they don't know if it will show up again, and they wrote it the way they did so it can be a hanging thread that future writers can pick up or not pick up with no particular plan. Yeah, exactly this... I can imagine the writers being like: "let's leave this open, it would be fun to pick this up again in a future season." This can be good in moderation! It's fun to leave some things conspicuously open, and keep the audience wondering if / when it will come back. The problem is that the show is basically nothing but a series of plotlines that the writers leave open. list of open plot hooks that the writers will expect us to remember when the next season drops, but I'll have totally forgotten: • king zog is in a mental institution • bean's mom brought her to hell and had her meet some mysterious figure • steamland wants to steal dreamland's magic (did the archdruidess die this season? I don't remember... is she still around?) • luci died; was decapitated and is now in heaven (I already forgot about this before writing this post) • elfo has been captured by trolls and needs to be rescued • magical elf throne is discovered under the castle look at the above list!! that's too many loving plot hooks!! Plus, the extra stuff that probably won't matter too much, but will likely be brought up at some point: • bean may have had a whirlwind romance with a mermaid princess • derek is a man now and has some connection to fairies • elfo's romances with the fortune teller + boat Polo-Rican fucked around with this message at 16:35 on Feb 2, 2021 |
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Feb 2, 2021 16:19
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