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I don't see Emet being tempered by Zodiark as "mind control." Like a lot of things in fantasy worlds like FFXIV, it's a reification of more abstract sentiments. When Emet and the rest of the Convocation summoned Zodiark, they necessarily infused it with their own fundamental desire: to save their people and their world at any cost. The tempering is, essentially, a manifestation of their mutual oath. They're bound until death to pursue that goal because of the promise they made to eachother, a promise that, in this case, is cemented by the magic of the world of the story. Zodiark is less an evil mind control god making them do bad things, and more the representation of that single-minded oath made real. The tragedy is the same: that, even though Emet has begun to realize the hollowness of his crusade, and Elidibus has begun to forget entirely what the crusade was for in the first place, they cannot help but continue to follow the path they set themselves on. It's Macbeth stuff.
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Jan 30, 2021 00:09
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yeah tempering isnt direct mind control, it's just an influence. most people become zealots because their own aether is stilled by the umbral shift, so all that's left is the influence.
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Jan 30, 2021 00:16
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Yeah I feel like it's important to note that Tempering isn't just mind control or being a mindless slave. Many Tempered people still retain a good chunk of their personality which is part of what makes it so scary. Being tempered does not mean you have no personality, it means you are driven towards whatever the goal of said primal is. But when Emet Selch was one of the people who helped set what that goal was it's just recursive. The Primal is driven by Emet's motivation which in turn reinforces his own motivation, but it's extremely clear that Emet wasn't helpless or unable to make choices. We in fact see that from the fact that he's stated he's tried other solutions and he was even trying a different solution with the WoL. He *wanted* to find other options but never found them something that worked. You can maybe argue that Zodiark made it hard for him to be satisfied with another solution but it doesn't really mesh with his stated motivations and personality.
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Jan 30, 2021 00:26
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Circles are already flat
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Jan 30, 2021 00:34
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ImpAtom posted:You can maybe argue that Zodiark made it hard for him to be satisfied with another solution but it doesn't really mesh with his stated motivations and personality. This is my problem with it, and this is why I feel it makes the character less impactful. Zodiark 100% did make him unsatisfied with any other solution. That's literally what I'm suggesting tempering is, not that he's being piloted like a meat robot. That's what the game and everyone else here is describing tempering as, as well. His will is Zodiark's, as defined by his summoners. His actions, personality, and character are his own. But his will isn't. He's Kain and Golbez. His actions, thoughts, and personality are still his, but in the end he has to do what aligns with Zodiark's will.
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Jan 30, 2021 00:50
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juggalo baby coffin posted:emet is basically like ardbert was when we first met him, committed to doing something evil to save his world, after having given up everything. Ardbert was never a dick to his grandson
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Jan 30, 2021 00:56
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thetoughestbean posted:Ardbert was never a dick to his grandson He was a dick to his bird, never visiting 
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Jan 30, 2021 00:57
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Waffleman_ posted:He was a dick to his bird, never visiting He was dead!
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Jan 30, 2021 01:03
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thetoughestbean posted:He was dead! That doesn't stop some people.
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Jan 30, 2021 01:11
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thetoughestbean posted:He was dead! It didn't stop him at the end of 5.3, Seto could still see him!
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Jan 30, 2021 01:19
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Waffleman_ posted:It didn't stop him at the end of 5.3, Seto could still see him! He actually couldn't, though? He had to close his eyes and imagine he was there?
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Jan 30, 2021 01:25
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Waffleman_ posted:It didn't stop him at the end of 5.3, Seto could still see him! Then he did visit his bird!
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Jan 30, 2021 01:25
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thetoughestbean posted:Then he did visit his bird! It took him a hundred years!
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Jan 30, 2021 02:04
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Waffleman_ posted:It took him a hundred years! He was dead and invisible to everybody in the post apocalypse!
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Jan 30, 2021 02:09
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Rand Brittain posted:He actually couldn't, though? He had to close his eyes and imagine he was there? i think he could see ardbert's soul inside the WoL more clearly with his eyes closed
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Jan 30, 2021 02:19
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:This is my problem with it, and this is why I feel it makes the character less impactful. The thing is that "his will isn't" again doesn't mesh with what he does. Nor does it make sense for Ascians in general. The only one who is clearly driven and unable to deviate is Elidibus who is no longer an Ascian but just a fragment of Zodiark. Emet Selch is very bluntly acting on his own desires and his own will. If he wasn't then the entire endgame wouldn't have happened because he'd effectively won when he kidnapped CrystalCatBoy.
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Jan 30, 2021 02:21
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My theory on Emet saying he's tempered: remember that Emet is a bastard man who doesn't care about 'lesser' beings than him. He probably doesn't really care that our definition of 'tempering' is far more total than his, and he didn't go into any detail. To him, 'being tempered' might mean 'I hear an angry voice of my god in the back of my mind but I can mostly tune it out', and he probably doesn't see the difference betweeen that and a mortal's problem of 'my entire will and personhood was subsumed by a parody of a god that until now I did not believe in'. The brainwashing equivalent of 'I got the flu and I'm fine, so stop whining that you're in pain and can't get out of bed'.
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Jan 30, 2021 03:14
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Cleretic posted:My theory on Emet saying he's tempered: remember that Emet is a bastard man who doesn't care about 'lesser' beings than him. He probably doesn't really care that our definition of 'tempering' is far more total than his, and he didn't go into any detail. To him, 'being tempered' might mean 'I hear an angry voice of my god in the back of my mind but I can mostly tune it out', and he probably doesn't see the difference betweeen that and a mortal's problem of 'my entire will and personhood was subsumed by a parody of a god that until now I did not believe in'. You do realize that Emet saying all that poo poo about how he doesn't care about lesser beings wasn't like..Actually how he truly felt, right?
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Jan 30, 2021 03:38
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Ibram Gaunt posted:You do realize that Emet saying all that poo poo about how he doesn't care about lesser beings wasn't like..Actually how he truly felt, right? But that would be lying, and we've decided that Emet was always telling the truth.
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Jan 30, 2021 04:03
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Emet-Selch liking the mortal races is quite a take.
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Jan 30, 2021 04:05
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Emet Selch wanted to like the 'lesser' races. That is absolutely part of his character. He talks about how he tried to live among them and have a family. He even genuinely gives the WoL a shot. The problem is that at no point is he able to view them as anything but pale reflections of a world he lost and from his perspective it was a worse crime to leave them broken and lessened while also sacrificing everyone he knew and loved. The key thing about Emet Selch is that he is not a heartless bastard who hates everyone. He is a broken man who desperately wants to bring back the people he loved and can't accept sacrificing them for someone else. He is still the villain in the story because at the end of the day he will engage in horrific mass murder for what he views as a greater good. He shares a lot with Ardbert in that he was the victim of a tragedy no hero could prevent and had to watch his world suffer and die. And Ardbert, it is worth noting, was also tempted on the same path to a lesser extent. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 04:12 on Jan 30, 2021 |
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Jan 30, 2021 04:07
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Cleretic posted:My theory on Emet saying he's tempered: remember that Emet is a bastard man who doesn't care about 'lesser' beings than him. He probably doesn't really care that our definition of 'tempering' is far more total than his, and he didn't go into any detail. To him, 'being tempered' might mean 'I hear an angry voice of my god in the back of my mind but I can mostly tune it out', and he probably doesn't see the difference betweeen that and a mortal's problem of 'my entire will and personhood was subsumed by a parody of a god that until now I did not believe in'. It's very weird to imagine up things that dont happen in the story to justify being mad about the character. Especially when it runs counter to basically all the actual text of the story
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Jan 30, 2021 04:16
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The bitterness in Emets voice when he said "but like so much else, this has been taken from you." was pretty telling.ZenMasterBullshit posted:It's very weird to imagine up things that dont happen in the story to justify being mad about the character. Especially when it runs counter to basically all the actual text of the story Cleretic.txt
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Jan 30, 2021 04:20
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Like one of the neatest bits of Emets character is that he genuinely did love his wife and son while he was Solus, as implied with how Varis talks about how lovely his grandpa was to him in comparison and from the Tales from the Shadows. He was genuinely trying to learn to like the sundered and live among them. This extends to his whole relationship with you the WoL and the scions. He was really trying and hoping you'd prove him wrong. You failed, at least for a little bit, but eventually turned it all against him, something he clearly believed could happen given he gave the Azem stone to Hydro to give to you after he died. ZenMasterBullshit fucked around with this message at 04:29 on Jan 30, 2021 |
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Jan 30, 2021 04:23
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Like one of the neatest bits of Emets character is that he genuinely did love his wife and son while he was Solus, as implied with how Varis talls about how lovely his grandpa was to him in comparison.and from the Tales from the Shadows. He was genuinely trying to learn to like the sundered and live among them. It's also interesting to note that Varis did actually end up taking on some of Emet's ideals. His big angry speech basically amounts to "We are lessened and broken and we need to fix that so we can be strong enough to eliminate the Ascians" and his immense racism and superiority complex is half based on beliving Emet Selch's "We are lesser" ideals, even if he didn't understand the full idea behind them. It makes sense that he feels so hosed up and upset because he basically is of the belief that he is a lesser being and a tool and his response is wanting to get powerful enough to prove that wrong. Which is why it's ironic that his son actually has gotten powerful enough to effectively mimic an Ascian and his response was just to murder his lovely dad and destroy everything he believed in.
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Jan 30, 2021 04:28
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I don't remember, do we know how Varis came to power? Is patricide a right of passage in Garlemald?
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Jan 30, 2021 15:05
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hazardousmouse posted:I don't remember, do we know how Varis came to power? Is patricide a right of passage in Garlemald? Far as we know, Solus died peacefully, and Varis was a respected enough figure that the succession of power went through largely uncontested. A big part of the civil war that broke out on Varis' death was that Zenos is actually generally unpopular. Even putting aside the rumor that he actually died in Ala Mhigo (which is, you know... true), and the witnessed truth that he killed his father, he was still seen as the guy that lost Doma and Ala Mhigo, and as a generally incapable and self-centered leader besides (which is also true), all of which left the door open for contests to his legitimacy from other people angling for the throne like Nerva, or from people who wanted to strike off on their own like Gabranth. Cleretic fucked around with this message at 15:18 on Jan 30, 2021 |
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Jan 30, 2021 15:16
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I thought I read that there was a civil war when Solus died because he refused to name an heir before hand. Varis had to kill one of his uncles to claim the throne. Emet bragged about setting that up by timing his death perfectly. Varis immediately named Zenos the heir once his rule was solidified. Purely out of hopes of preventing another such cluster gently caress. Too bad Zenos turned out to be Zenos thus screwing that right up.
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Jan 30, 2021 15:34
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There was a civil war yeah, hence Varis' perfectly-delivered "It was by design?!" in late Stormblood
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Jan 30, 2021 15:39
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Yup there was a civil war when Emet's mortal body bit it that one time. There was a bigger one after Varis also bit it.
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Jan 30, 2021 15:51
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Right, I did forget about the civil war there, my bad. But it definitely didn't have as messy a footprint as Varis' death; we barely see any effects from it, which leads to the impression that the dispute was at the very least brief, and at least bloodless enough that the repercussions never truly hit Eorzean shores. I think perhaps Varis solved it through a few prompt assassinations rather than a protracted dispute like Zenos.
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Jan 30, 2021 15:54
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Twibbit posted:Varis immediately named Zenos the heir once his rule was solidified. Purely out of hopes of preventing another such cluster gently caress. Too bad Zenos turned out to be Zenos thus screwing that right up. was Zenos named heir? i thought Varis hated his son for wanting to live the murderhobo lifestyle, so he just got assigned to unpopular provinces like Ala Mhigo and Doma
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Jan 30, 2021 16:06
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Also Zenos hosed right off after killing Varis so he wasn't there to take power, which he didn't even want. So that made things even more volatile.
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Jan 30, 2021 17:33
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A big point in ARR was that Garlemald was in the middle of a succession war which is why we got lucky and only had to deal with the 14th Legion instead of a more concentrated effort. And yeah, Varis never declared Zenos as his heir. He didn't want him anywhere near the reins of power, seeing him as nothing but a monster and a freak.
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Jan 30, 2021 17:46
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Cleretic posted:and the witnessed truth that he killed his father The only witnesses to that were Gaius and Estinien. By the time the Garleans showed up in the throne room, Zenos was in the process of fighting the two of them and then peaced out, leaving the Garleans to think that it was Gaius who was responsible. It's even commented on as such by Allie in the Weapon storyline.
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Jan 30, 2021 18:14
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It seemed like Ceaser Daemonfucker and Estinien were taking the blame for Regicide instead of Zenos, according to the imperial guards reaction at the time.
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Jan 30, 2021 18:16
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If they recognized him as Gaius, he was already known as a traitor anyways. Wouldn’t be hard to pin it on him.
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Jan 30, 2021 18:17
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Garlemald wouldn't be unusual as an empire without a formal tradition of direct succession anyways, especially given that as an empire it's a relatively young society compared to its republican days.
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Jan 30, 2021 19:57
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ImpAtom posted:Emet Selch wanted to like the 'lesser' races. That is absolutely part of his character. He talks about how he tried to live among them and have a family. He even genuinely gives the WoL a shot. The problem is that at no point is he able to view them as anything but pale reflections of a world he lost and from his perspective it was a worse crime to leave them broken and lessened while also sacrificing everyone he knew and loved. Yeah but there's a world of difference between "tried liking the lesser races" and someone who unironically uses the term "lesser races." The core conflict in the WoL's relationship with emet is that he doesn't see you as a real person, because he doesn't see anyone as a real person except for himself and lahabrea. It's why you can't talk him out of anything he does. He does favors as the story goes on because he wants to try and understand these lesser beings more in order to fulfill his true objective: bringing back Amaurot. He spent time as solus playing the part, which is why he knew how to time his death to cause maximum chaos in garlemald. Everything we knew he was involved in, the various empires then and hanging around with you now, was made more successful because he took the time to understand what he was dealing with, which is probably also why he was so good at manipulating the lifestream. Remember, he knew what y'shtola's soul "looked" like after talking to her, among a group, for what, 5 minutes? And seeing her a few times in the background? He didn't respect her nearly as much as he probably should have, but he certainly noted who she was, which is a step further than most other ascians we meet. The tragedy of emet is that he was incapable of not being a megaracist. I think that he believed zodiark made him that way, and I think that's what he meant by saying he was tempered, but I don't think that's really what happened. He was determined to undo what he saw as a mistake, sacrificing actual people to save the world when there were all of these not actual people around who would have done the job. He saw hydaelyn as a being brought about by a bunch of literal race traitors. Every time he looked at a regular human, as we know them, he saw a direct example of his own failure to save his people. If you go and rewatch the cutscene right before the dying gasp, his answer to the scions insisting they are real is to flex his power to physically prove them wrong, and it's only when he sees a glimpse of you as Azem that he gets serious and demands that you end the facade of not bring a "real" person, because anyone who challenges him must be on his level.
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Jan 30, 2021 20:46
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a cartoon duck posted:was Zenos named heir? i thought Varis hated his son for wanting to live the murderhobo lifestyle, so he just got assigned to unpopular provinces like Ala Mhigo and Doma zenos was never named heir, varis says 'monsters are not made for thrones' when elidibus asks him why he's not upset that his only heir died. hazardousmouse posted:I don't remember, do we know how Varis came to power? Is patricide a right of passage in Garlemald? solus died of natural causes. he was old as poo poo and the only reason he lasted as long as he did was emet was keeping his body alive with magic. he let himself die as soon as the time was right to sow some more chaos and yeah i think there's an element of Emet using zodiark's tempering as an excuse for his prejudices. he has some real cognitive dissonance going on, in the story as you start to empathise with him, he also starts to empathise with you, but just as it seems like he's gonna crest that final hill he snap back to the 'lesser races and false lives' thing. he obviously on some level sees (and by that i mean the evidence of his senses, not like him consciously acknowledging) that the sundered have true lives and are real people. But it's not something he can ever admit to himself, because to do so would mean admitting that he's murdered more people than ever existed in the original world. If he admitted the sundered were real people, just the fact that he created such evil, cruel empires would mean that the ancients were not perfect beings, because he himself is a monster. Emet's been around for a looong looong time, he created allag as well as garlemald, and i think probably early on in the project to rejoin the world he was a lot more gung-ho about rejoinings, because the loss of amaurot was still fresh and so was the horror of looking at all these sundered souls. but because of the long and involved game he plays in building empires, he naturally had to interact a lot with the sundered, and just by sheer exposure came to understand the complexities of their lives. he even said he tried to go native at some point, and had a family and loved ones. but outliving them just seemed to harden his heart even more. I think on some level he knew that he was wrong, but he'd gone too far and done too much evil to turn back, so he just hoped that he could try and forget the whole thing once amaurot was remade. i think his death did break him out of either his tempering or his way of thinking or both, because he asks you to remember amaurot, and if he still believed the WoL and co aren't real people, doing that would be like asking a cloud of smoke to remember you. the fact that he returns from the lifestream to help you kill the last being who could possibly rejoin amaurot is also another good tell. i dunno, 'heroes becoming villains in pursuit of a noble goal' is a big theme in the game, and has been since heavensward, and given that emet created zodiark in the first place it's really academic as to whether he's doing it of his own free will. zodiark might be forcing him to stick with the goal long after emet's had enough, but the goal was emet's all along. he's a tragic hero of one world whose goals made him the tragic villain of another world, much like what ardbert was manipulated into being.
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Jan 30, 2021 22:25
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