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Sockser posted:Rewatching the whole series right now. Just my guesses as a show-only watcher who recently re-watched the whole drat thing. Annie was working towards the center because they thought the King would be there and thus the Founding Titan. She was hitting a brick wall though, since the King was fake and the real Founding Titan had been dead 5 years. This season we saw that she was trailing Kenny, so she obviously had figured out that he was protecting the "real" King, but he caught her tail way too easily and I think she probably couldn't follow that line of investigation anymore because Kenny was very dangerous and very competent. Reiner and Bert had no idea that Eren was a Titan, Attack or otherwise. The big reveal of Season 4 was that they DIDN'T have any plan at all. Once Annie hit a dead end they decided to just repeat kicking the wall gates down to see if the Founding Titan would show up. Eren transforming completely changed their plans, but they still didn't know that he was the Founding Titan, which makes sense, because why would this random idiot be the King? Once Eren first transforms, things move way too quick for Reiner, Bert and Annie to make any good plans (because they get separated by being in different branches of the military). They obviously conspire to capture Eren and bring him home, but (and this was something I missed the first time through in 2013) Bert and Reiner are not present with the main crew when they finally capture Annie. They literally have no idea she's been IDed or captured until Armin shouts it at them at the end of Season 2. In Season 2, Reiner actually says that Eren might not be the Cordinate, in which case they'll need to come back to get it AND Christa. They just know that Eren is a Titan that their bosses would love to get their hands on, and are taking him back to Zeke for now.
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Jan 30, 2021 08:32
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Sockser posted:Rewatching the whole series right now. They had no idea that Eren had the Coordinate until he commanded the titans after touching Dina Fritz, however, the fact that he was one of the Nine inside the walls (which like everyone they discovered during the the breaching of Wall Rose at Trost) meant he was a person of interest. Even if Eren wasn't the Founder himself he could possess clues to its whereabouts, such as using him to find the basement (which they learned of since Erwin revealed it as a bluff) and whatever intel was stored there, and worst case scenario they're returning to Marley with the intel they've gathered so far and a brand new titan. After Trost they presumably made the decision to split up in order to facilitate their movements, and indeed Annie was able to mount the initial plan to capture Eren because she wasn't part of the scouts (Reiner and Berthold were riding with them, after all, and had they made any excuse not to participate or left the formation they'd have been compromised). Also neat detail: first thing Reiner does when he rushes to "save" Armin from the Female Titan is remove his cloak and yell, so that Annie could spot him.
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Jan 30, 2021 09:33
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I guess if they came back with an extra titan they could reasonably claim the operation was a success, even if it wasn't the one they were actually looking for. Reiner's fear that drove him to initially attack Shiganshina was that they'd all be punished for failure if they returned.
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Jan 30, 2021 12:35
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Irony Be My Shield posted:I guess if they came back with an extra titan they could reasonably claim the operation was a success, even if it wasn't the one they were actually looking for. Reiner's fear that drove him to initially attack Shiganshina was that they'd all be punished for failure if they returned. His fear? Oh, no. That fear was how Reiner sold things to the others. His real motive was to be a hero. The fact that he succeeded in his goal (at the cost of everyone else) is part of why the irony is so on-point.
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Jan 30, 2021 12:38
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I think fear played a part of it though. I don't think it's unreasonable in that situation to think that at a minimum Reiner, if not the other two, would just get fed to the next warrior candidates in line as punishment for their failure.
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Jan 30, 2021 16:25
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JahRoo posted:I think fear played a part of it though. I don't think it's unreasonable in that situation to think that at a minimum Reiner, if not the other two, would just get fed to the next warrior candidates in line as punishment for their failure. Each time I stop to think about what's going on with Reiner, it just ends up making me say, "Maaaan, gently caress Marley." Fascist fucks using the threat of titans as a show of power and a means to oppress the Eldians is so goddamn infuriating. And then you have the Tyburs intentionally baiting the Paradis folk to murder innocent lives to basically start a world war against the Eldian people... such a sad story.
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Jan 30, 2021 16:41
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Yeah you can't ever really justify what RBA did, but when you realize the degree of brainwashing they went through before even becoming warriors, and think about the consequences they would have faced when coming back from Paradis empty-handed, you can at least sympathize with the situation they were put in.
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Jan 30, 2021 16:51
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Absolutely. It's also OK for Reiner to want to be a hero but also be scared. The man's a mess. Bert actually becomes the "hero" Reiner wants to be is after talking to Armin and turning into the colossal titan in his last battle. Still died screaming in fear though.
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Jan 30, 2021 17:55
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I finally caught up with this after finishing Season 2 and I screamed when The Basement is revealed to us and it turns out they're all Fantasy Jews who can transform into monsterfied versions of the old caricatures and they've actually been in Israel the whole time. this show rocks
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Jan 30, 2021 18:29
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 please, no.
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Jan 30, 2021 19:42
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Vanderdeath posted:
Yeah, the revelation isn't that the titans are "fantasy Jews" or whatever — though the analogy works on a surface level with the internment zones and armbands. I'm not privy enough about what's going on in Israel to comment on that comparison, so I won't. But the revelation that these "savage, mindless titans" the Paradis folk have been slaughtering for years in what they thought was a noble war of survival turning out to be them senselessly killing actual people — their own people in fact — is what makes the story utterly heartbreaking. Again, gently caress Marley and the Tyburs.
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Jan 30, 2021 19:56
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JahRoo posted:Yeah you can't ever really justify what RBA did, but when you realize the degree of brainwashing they went through before even becoming warriors, and think about the consequences they would have faced when coming back from Paradis empty-handed, you can at least sympathize with the situation they were put in. I can sympathise with Annie more than Reiner and Bert. She didn't play any part in breaking the walls, recognised what they were doing was wrong, objected to killing Marco and went out of her way to avoid hurting anyone else she knew at her own detriment. I can't forgive her for carrying on with the plan even after the 5 years spent in the wall or the almost playful way she killed a bunch of scouts but she's definitely the least guilty of the 3 Warriors. I have zero sympathy for Reiner or Berthold though. They knowingly caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people and then tried it again in spite of spending 5 years on Paradis. Reiner bullied Annie into helping him kill Marco and he and Bert had no real problems trying to kill everyone in the survey corps and then go on to wipe out Paradis. None of the season 4 pity-party for Reiner has given me a twinge of empathy towards him even if I can see that he's objectively a tragic character.
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Jan 30, 2021 20:05
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Reiner is a victim of circumstance though, being Eldian. Just like the Paradis folk, he was thrust into a fight for his own survival, but his march to war was under the harsh, cruel, and immoral order of the Marley government. That said, I don't think anyone is wrong to lack any sympathy for Reiner or Bertholdt, because they still actively made the choice to slaughter innocents in search of a WMD instead of facing their own deaths at the hands of the Marleyan government. But that really just goes to show how hosed up Marley is with their Eldian brainwashing, and made me feel sorry for the likes of Gabi, Zofia, Udo, and Colt because they too are victims of circumstance being used as tools of war in the oppression of their own people. The methods used to keep the Eldians and the power of the titans in check by Marley to be utilized as a sort of "nuclear deterrent" is hosed, and it's completely hosed from the top down; the Tyburs inciting all nations to go to war with Paradis by purposely throwing the lives of their own citizens towards the jaws of death — quite literally — should make you hate the concept of Marley more than anything, not so much Reiner or Bertholdt imo. Still though, I'm rooting against Reiner for reasons. Maybe he'll redeem himself though, somehow. teagone fucked around with this message at 20:32 on Jan 30, 2021 |
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Jan 30, 2021 20:29
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teagone posted:Yeah, the revelation isn't that the titans are "fantasy Jews" or whatever — though the analogy works on a surface level with the internment zones and armbands. I'm not privy enough about what's going on in Israel to comment on that comparison, so I won't. But the revelation that these "savage, mindless titans" the Paradis folk have been slaughtering for years in what they thought was a noble war of survival turning out to be them senselessly killing actual people — their own people in fact — is what makes the story utterly heartbreaking. Again, gently caress Marley and the Tyburs. Yeah, like, I don't want to tip-toe around the fact that there are clear allusions, especially with the Libero ghetto and the armbands but what you said drives straight to the point of the matter: these are two populations of people forced to kill one another because of the sins of a long-dead tyrant. Marley is coded as an Italian/Roman analogue while the Eldians are coded as Nordic/Germanic. They've intermingled so much that they all pretty much share the same culture, despite the division between the normal citizenry and the Subjects of Ymir. I think Isayama wanted to borrow the WW2 imagery but the actual supposed ethnicity of the Eldians aren't tied to a religion or specific set of characteristics. Hell, their surnames run the gamut of Germanic (Hoover, Braun, Jaeger) to French (Leonhart) to Slavic (Brzenska). Vanderdeath fucked around with this message at 21:19 on Jan 30, 2021 |
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Jan 30, 2021 21:14
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Vanderdeath posted:Yeah, like, I don't want to tip-toe around the fact that there are clear allusions, especially with the Libero ghetto and the armbands but what you said drives straight to the point of the matter: these are two populations of people forced to kill one another because of the sins of a long-dead tyrant. Yup. The broader takeaway should be that extremism and militarism is bad, and efforts made (likely immoral) to maintain status as a military superpower are loving terrifying to think about.
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Jan 30, 2021 21:52
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There's a mix of historical analogies going on. "Island nation cut off from the rest of the world by military dictatorship policy" is also a very specific Japanese reference.
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Jan 31, 2021 00:56
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AoT certainly inspires its aesthetics from history, but the narrative is too tightly weaved into itself to try and interpret any given element as some kind of take on historical events just because a real-world analogy can be drawn. Ultimately it's a war story, with fantastical elements in a fictitious world, that tries to analyze what sorts of motives drive people to fight, the merits (if any are to be found), and the consequences. While its fine to find Holocaust imagery uncomfortable because it should be, the work isn't using it to equate Eldians to Jews specifically or to any other real-world ethnicity that's suffered similarly, but rather uses it as an example of the type of violence people have historically inflicted on each other in reality. Conspiratiorist fucked around with this message at 01:48 on Jan 31, 2021 |
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Jan 31, 2021 01:44
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Oh dick, just rewatching S04 and Falco remembers flying round with a sword. So he definitely gets a shifter power, right? Unless Eldians randomly get memories. Which they don't. Also Eldians aren't Jews, it's just obvious imagery to show they're oppressed c'mon son
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Jan 31, 2021 01:47
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Alan_Shore posted:Oh dick, just rewatching S04 and Falco remembers flying round with a sword. So he definitely gets a shifter power, right? Unless Eldians randomly get memories. Which they don't. Their memories are connected to the coordinate, which transcends space and time. I think. I believe that's why Krueger/Owl spoke to Grisha about saving Mikasa and Armin before willfully transferring the Attack Titan over to him, unsure of what he was really talking about.
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Jan 31, 2021 01:54
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Exactly, Kruger was a shifter and saw Eren's memories. Before Eren became a shifter he saw his future memories.
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Jan 31, 2021 02:09
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Yeah, they could be memories Falco's going to inherit in the future (possibly from Reiner?).
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Jan 31, 2021 02:18
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Attack on Titan is good. Loved the Armin is a nuke visuals.
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Jan 31, 2021 02:21
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Alan_Shore posted:Exactly, Kruger was a shifter and saw Eren's memories. Before Eren became a shifter he saw his future memories. Oh, I misunderstood what you were saying lol. [edit] drat, I gotta be careful of googling poo poo closer to to where the anime is now. I think I accidentally spoiled something about Falco's memories for myself scrolling some search results that included manga stuff, but not sure lol. gently caress. teagone fucked around with this message at 02:37 on Jan 31, 2021 |
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Jan 31, 2021 02:25
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grieving for Gandalf posted:I finally caught up with this after finishing Season 2 and I screamed when The Basement is revealed to us and it turns out they're all Fantasy Jews who can transform into monsterfied versions of the old caricatures and they've actually been in Israel the whole time. this show rocks Then season 4 is Mr. Miyagi fighting against Imperial Japan while his family is in an internment camp.
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Jan 31, 2021 02:39
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teagone posted:Oh, I misunderstood what you were saying lol. I am terrified of even putting the show into Google or YouTube. This is my safe space haha
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Jan 31, 2021 02:51
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Very seriously, don’t gently caress with it. It’s so close to the end and spoilers abound.
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Jan 31, 2021 03:54
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I should have learned my lesson already tbh. I semi-spoiled the Reiner/Bertholdt reveal right around the time season 2 was starting, lmao. I didn't understand the context at the time though, so it wasn't too bad. The Falco thing I came across earlier is more an implication I think, so I could be wrong.
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Jan 31, 2021 04:01
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My advice to anyone who is anime only is do not under any circumstances youtube Attack on Titan stuff. A bunch of youtubers who do not give a poo poo about putting spoilers in their thumbnails/video titles are all over the place and you will be recommended their videos because of the youtube algorithm
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Jan 31, 2021 04:18
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I know it's a bit hypocritical to say this in the discussion thread of an anime, but it's best to just avoid all media related to an ongoing show you're watching, especially if there's other content available that advances the plot (manga/LN/book/etc). I know there's an urge to CONSUME but it's best to resist it.
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Jan 31, 2021 05:34
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Especially in the case of something as twisty as aot But more than anything given how BIG aot is it’s a fool errand to go looking for anything aot. It’s spoiler Russian roulette
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Jan 31, 2021 05:57
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My speculative guess is that the season's theme has been "memories of the Armored Titan" in contrast to the previous seasons which focused on the life of the Attack Titan. The focus of the episodes has almost been entirely Falco and Reiner, with the season exploring the psychological damage Reiner carries, and also focusing on the misgivings and drives of Falco. Only one titan amongst the Marley titans had someone swinging around killing Titans, and that was Reiner. Also the Armored Titan seems completely hosed up and I'm pretty sure Reiner is ready to check out. EDIT: To avoid spoilers I've been satisfying my AoT itch by rewatching the seasons with a group of unspoiled newbies. Watching their reactions and theories has been great, and I'm keeping my mouth shut beyond saying "Yeah, just remember I had to wait 3 years between these seasons." The best part is still when the Eren Titan first appears and starts killing other Titans and one of my friends joked that Eren must be inside the titan, and another one starts joking about Eren driving a titan like a mech, followed by another friend joking that all of the titans were "meat mechs" piloted by humans, and I had to mute my microphone to stop from screaming. Anonymous Zebra fucked around with this message at 06:03 on Jan 31, 2021 |
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Jan 31, 2021 05:58
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Anonymous Zebra posted:EDIT: To avoid spoilers I've been satisfying my AoT itch by rewatching the seasons with a group of unspoiled newbies. Watching their reactions and theories has been great, and I'm keeping my mouth shut beyond saying "Yeah, just remember I had to wait 3 years between these seasons." The best part is still when the Eren Titan first appears and starts killing other Titans and one of my friends joked that Eren must be inside the titan, and another one starts joking about Eren driving a titan like a mech, followed by another friend joking that all of the titans were "meat mechs" piloted by humans, and I had to mute my microphone to stop from screaming.
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Jan 31, 2021 06:43
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Maera Sior posted:We've been watching a friend go through this for the first time and their reactions are so much fun. Every so often there are some great gems like the joking "this takes place on the moon Titan and that's why they're so big" theory and the serious (and very reasonable) "titans are caused by a disease, the Beast Titan is spreading it, Grisha used his cover as a doctor to do tests, and Abnormals are failed cures" theory. I love that last one for being reasonable through a good part of season 2. Yes, they too initially claimed the show took place on Titan (how else could they swing so easy? Plus Eren is definitely being transformed by a space laser!). But the best part is how they were sure we'd see the basement by Season 1's finale...then they were absolutely sure it would be Season 2's finale...and now we are in Season 3 and they basically have given up hope on seeing it since the plot is knee-deep in the coup arc and no one is even talking about it anymore. They also thought the Colossal Titan was a hologram and the gates were destroyed by hidden explosives, which was pretty galaxy brained but no more insane then what was actually happening. Anonymous Zebra fucked around with this message at 06:55 on Jan 31, 2021 |
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Jan 31, 2021 06:52
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dipwood posted:I know it's a bit hypocritical to say this in the discussion thread of an anime, but it's best to just avoid all media related to an ongoing show you're watching, especially if there's other content available that advances the plot (manga/LN/book/etc). I know there's an urge to CONSUME but it's best to resist it. I mean, if you're up to date and there's no source novel or manga, it's unlikely there'll be spoilers. (Unless it's a show with regular leaks). And it's nice to discuss things with other people. It's just with things like Attack on Titan (especially for an anime only) you really need to be careful who you talk about it with.
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Jan 31, 2021 07:04
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Anonymous Zebra posted:Yes, they too initially claimed the show took place on Titan (how else could they swing so easy? Plus Eren is definitely being transformed by a space laser!). But the best part is how they were sure we'd see the basement by Season 1's finale...then they were absolutely sure it would be Season 2's finale...and now we are in Season 3 and they basically have given up hope on seeing it since the plot is knee-deep in the coup arc and no one is even talking about it anymore. That is amazing. Please share more. 
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Jan 31, 2021 07:11
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The "This show takes place on Titan!" theory was so widespread during season 1.
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Jan 31, 2021 07:14
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SpartanIvy posted:The "This show takes place on Titan!" theory was so widespread during season 1. That's so very funny. My theory was "This takes place in shounen land" and it took me til after the forest arc to debride myself of that.
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Jan 31, 2021 07:28
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Taking place on Titan is the only way the title makes sense.
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Jan 31, 2021 07:50
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I've really enjoyed how they've adapted this arc so far, but I'm also happy I can share this shitpost with the anime thread now.
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Jan 31, 2021 08:36
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WrightOfWay posted:Taking place on Titan is the only way the title makes sense. It's pretty much Isayama trying to force a Japanese title with a double meaning onto another language where it doesn't work.
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Jan 31, 2021 09:43
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