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Good explanations, thanks
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Jan 26, 2021 19:18
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prom candy posted:I really like web development, but if you don't like being in situations where you're banging your head against the wall trying to figure something out then programming may not be for you. Yeah, maybe not. I have to say I don't like stumbling in the dark and I don't have a ton of perseverance when I don't know what is wrong or what I need to do in order to start fixing it. This is true in many aspects of my life, now that I think about it. I get easily stressed out when something just won't work and it makes no sense. This is a very depressing moment because I am so loving sick of my current job and saw web dev as a great way to make a change, but now I am questioning it and feeling like I am back to square 1.
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Jan 26, 2021 19:56
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Blue squares you won’t make as much as you would doing programming but if you like playing around with websites you can learn WordPress and still make decent money. I do about $600 per website. Coupled in with your SEO skills you could make bank.
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Jan 26, 2021 20:09
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blue squares posted:Yeah, maybe not. I have to say I don't like stumbling in the dark and I don't have a ton of perseverance when I don't know what is wrong or what I need to do in order to start fixing it. This is true in many aspects of my life, now that I think about it. I get easily stressed out when something just won't work and it makes no sense. It happens less and less as time goes on, and more importantly I think you get better at figuring out what's wrong or how to look for answers but the learning curve especially at the start can be tough. I'm thinking back to when I was making my first for-pay websites with PHP just staring at the screen going "how the gently caress do I do this." Empress Brosephine posted:Blue squares you won’t make as much as you would doing programming but if you like playing around with websites you can learn WordPress and still make decent money. I do about $600 per website. Coupled in with your SEO skills you could make bank. Is that all a Wordpress site goes for these days?
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Jan 26, 2021 21:00
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no you could get more just I work in a dead part of the United States with very poor people
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Jan 26, 2021 21:00
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When I was doing wordpress work I charged $100/hr which weeded out lovely clients and got me the type that would make insane requests but was worth doing. Also maybe the thing that attracted you to web development can be found in a different discipline with the same output? Do you want to understand the goals, objects, methods, and metrics of a project or initiative and launch something to the public? Then you might be interested in product management or product designer. You can also be more interested in the process of getting the work done and look into project or program management.
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Jan 26, 2021 21:28
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Empress Brosephine posted:Blue squares you won’t make as much as you would doing programming but if you like playing around with websites you can learn WordPress and still make decent money. I do about $600 per website. Coupled in with your SEO skills you could make bank. Yeah that's exactly what I charge for a no-frills five page informational Wordpress site, also.
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Jan 26, 2021 21:42
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Are you two $600 guys doing any coding, or just setting up sites with existing themes/plugins? If you’re coding you are WAY undercharging.
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Jan 26, 2021 21:56
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Very little coding, if anything just CSS. For coding projects I. Charge $60 a hour
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Jan 26, 2021 21:57
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kedo posted:Are you two $600 guys doing any coding, or just setting up sites with existing themes/plugins? If you’re coding you are WAY undercharging. I have a sort of skeleton that I developed over the years from which I build off. From there it's mostly just tweaking SCSS, and I use the smaller projects to try out different techniques, develop SCSS mixins, etc. The most time consuming part of actual work on those sites is finding stock photos.
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Jan 26, 2021 22:14
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blue squares posted:1) Is it normal to feel way out of my depth when I switch over from tutorials to doing it completely myself? 1) yes 2) no This seems like part of the process. Pick some projects and keep at it.
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Jan 27, 2021 02:26
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prom candy posted:It happens less and less as time goes on, and more importantly I think you get better at figuring out what's wrong or how to look for answers but the learning curve especially at the start can be tough. I'm thinking back to when I was making my first for-pay websites with PHP just staring at the screen going "how the gently caress do I do this." In my experience at least, the ratio of time was consistent. I rarely find myself spending very much time on something unless I'm stuck on it somehow. I just don't get stuck trying to figure out how to make something like array.reduce() do what I want it to do, and instead get stuck figuring out how to make an event respond to a webworker. As I spend more time at my company, my responsibilities have increased, making the difficulty of challenges increase with it. The ratio of time I spend going "Oh I know what to do here, nice." to "I don't know what I'm doing." is about the same. I'm not one of those people who finds joy in the struggle and challenge or anything, but I do find joy in the paycheck, so I live with it.
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Jan 27, 2021 03:42
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Vincent Valentine posted:The ratio of time I spend going "Oh I know what to do here, nice." to "I don't know what I'm doing." is about the same. I'm not one of those people who finds joy in the struggle and challenge or anything, but I do find joy in the paycheck, so I live with it. If you have a question that Nishandreth didn’t answer on Stack Overflow 2 years ago you’re asking the wrong question.
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Jan 27, 2021 04:17
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The main app I work on is very old, and the 4 project leads over the years(going back to before I joined) have all tried to improve it. Each one tried something completely different, each one failed, and each one left the company in shame. It's a hosed up mash of a 3rd-party proprietary framework, a heavily modified version of jquery 0.4 which someone turned into a component based framework, angularjs 1.5.1, React v8 or something like that and most recently VueJS but thankfully I got to stop that one before it got too out of hand. Soy templates are in there as well but thankfully there's only a little bit of that code left. If there is a god, they don't even look at this code and politely ignore the fact that it stands as a monument to man's arrogance and is an abomination to their great cosmos. Nobody can truly help me anymore.
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Jan 27, 2021 04:32
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Holy gently caress I hope they're paying you well, that sounds awful
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Jan 27, 2021 05:56
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That project rules. Think you could try to get some Svelte in there? I feel like you owe it to your predecessors to keep on building this thing up.
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Jan 27, 2021 06:06
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Vincent Valentine posted:a heavily modified version of jquery 0.4 which someone turned into a component based framework, angularjs 1.5.1, React v8 or something like that and most recently VueJS but thankfully I got to stop that one 
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Jan 27, 2021 16:08
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"We could rebuild this whole site using modern, mature frameworks that obviate all of our hacks using best practices and native features that are 10 years established" "Noooo! We invested all this time into building what we have and taping it back together whenever anything breaks"
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Jan 27, 2021 16:57
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Vincent Valentine posted:The main app I work on is very old, and the 4 project leads over the years(going back to before I joined) have all tried to improve it. Each one tried something completely different, each one failed, and each one left the company in shame. It's a hosed up mash of a 3rd-party proprietary framework, a heavily modified version of jquery 0.4 which someone turned into a component based framework, angularjs 1.5.1, React v8 or something like that and most recently VueJS but thankfully I got to stop that one before it got too out of hand. Soy templates are in there as well but thankfully there's only a little bit of that code left. Capitalize on that hell and add "micro frontends" to your linked in
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Jan 27, 2021 17:50
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Vincent Valentine posted:The main app I work on is very old, and the 4 project leads over the years(going back to before I joined) have all tried to improve it. Each one tried something completely different, each one failed, and each one left the company in shame. It's a hosed up mash of a 3rd-party proprietary framework, a heavily modified version of jquery 0.4 which someone turned into a component based framework, angularjs 1.5.1, React v8 or something like that and most recently VueJS but thankfully I got to stop that one before it got too out of hand. Soy templates are in there as well but thankfully there's only a little bit of that code left. "The Aristocrats!"
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Jan 27, 2021 21:41
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prom candy posted:Holy gently caress I hope they're paying you well, that sounds awful I'm paid dead average but there's other benefits, like I've been working remote for a couple of years now and I can largely make my own hours. There's a chunk of time in the afternoon I need to be available on slack for, but otherwise my schedule is incredibly flexible which I didn't expect to be such a huge boon to my life, but it is. Knowing that I essentially never have to worry about a schedule conflict to go hang out with friends is very nice for keeping life stress free. Besides, you get used to it after enough time with the codebase. I was just saying that if you're trying to find help on why your react component isn't properly getting data from an angularjs controller because your outdated version of angular router isn't recognizing a state change from a jQuery function changing the browser location, well, you're on your own. But you do get used to it. Ratio of challenge to time understanding what's going on has been consistent over the years. It... Could definitely be better though. I do worry that when I eventually leave I'm going to have problems re-integrating into a normal job. All of this stuff is so old that I'm not spending any time with modern practices and frameworks, so I'm essentially going to have to study for a couple of months to get a new job. Data Graham posted:"We could rebuild this whole site using modern, mature frameworks that obviate all of our hacks using best practices and native features that are 10 years established" No, see, a client has never once asked us to improve our codebase from the trash it is to a more modern framework. If a client isn't asking for it, where's the value ?? How do you write a scrum story from a user perspective about a codebase rewrite? Vincent Valentine fucked around with this message at 00:47 on Jan 28, 2021 |
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Jan 28, 2021 00:45
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Vincent Valentine posted:No, see, a client has never once asked us to improve our codebase from the trash it is to a more modern framework. "As a user, I want the developers to not quit."
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Jan 30, 2021 15:34
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I didn't want to deal with testing frameworks anymore. I know they're dev dependencies and don't get installed in production (usually) but I had to make the moral choice and reduce the billions of dependencies that infest this world. Every test utility on earth has a million dependencies each with a million dependencies and so on forever. There is no bottom. Because then those dependencies have dependencies that are higher up the tree and it's a slightly different version so it gets installed too. Then you have five copies of every dependency, and all their dependencies and so on. I built my own test utility that uses zero dependencies. It's fast and it works immediately and I don't have to gently caress around. It's perfect for small projects, utilities, plugins, whatever you are building that's simple that doesn't need jest. Or doesn't need mocha and 50 different plugins. I want feedback and suggestions, if you make me happy I will buy you a donut and eat it. I published my utility on npm. https://www.npmjs.com/package/kequtest
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Jan 31, 2021 19:54
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I’ve never had to install anything for Jest.
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Feb 1, 2021 03:25
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Cool that this works for you but I will never care about my node_modules folder
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Feb 1, 2021 03:28
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Lumpy posted:I’ve never had to install anything for Jest. Jest has 3 dependencies, each of which has it's own dependencies. @jest-core alone has an additional 28, and you can bet each of those has their own dependencies. I usually don't care about dependencies though, it's never seriously impacted my build times.
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Feb 1, 2021 06:36
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Sorry, I thought it was universally agreed that npm dependencies are hell
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Feb 1, 2021 12:58
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It's only obvious to outsiders, and those who step back.
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Feb 1, 2021 13:26
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Nolgthorn posted:Sorry, I thought it was universally agreed that npm dependencies are hell What are the reasons you have for caring about this? I’m racking my brain trying to think of why this matters, but hey maybe you have a great reason I’m not familiar with.
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Feb 1, 2021 13:37
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Well obviously everyone should care about normal npm dependencies because they impact bundle size. devDependencies are less important but it definitely leads to bloat where someone adds one line of code to add markdown support to something and then every user needs to download a markdown parser even if 99% don’t use it. Also, if you work in a team, you do about 1000x more “npm installs” then someone working by themselves. So a faster install is a benefit.
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Feb 1, 2021 13:56
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I've heard a lot of good reasons to avoid dependencies unless you really, truly need to. A few: Installing a package means keeping that package up to date. Many teams will not have time to fix breaking changes caused by a package update, and those updates are required because security issues are updated in newer versions. I know from experience from all that poo poo I posted earlier, dealing with security in outdated packages is a nightmare. When you install a package, you're installing every package that package has ever kissed. That means something going fucky in a dependencys dependency you didn't even know you had is a cause for concern, but you may not know it. Newer npm audit has helped this a lot, thankfully. The Leftpad Incident™. Bundle sizes may not matter to most people, but five percent or so people unable to reliably use your app is five percent revenue lost. This is particularly a problem for companies that create products or services for the poor or people in developing nations. Remember that time that popular npm package installed a bitcoin miner on everyone's website and nobody knew? And so on. The reasons are good, and strong, valid reasons to avoid dependencies. It's sure as gently caress not going to stop Personal Me, but it stopped my boss which means it's stopped Work Me. I think packages are great and The Future, but I really wish we could address more if the problems with them. Before it gets out of hand, again . All bets are off with Dev Dependencies though. When it comes to those, gently caress it, go nuts.
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Feb 1, 2021 14:17
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Sure, that’s just basic webdev “don’t send 25MB down to the client” stuff. But this library is a replacement to unit testing frameworks and the rationale is digging through jest’s dependency tree and I’m honestly wondering why does it matter one bit how many dependencies jest pulls down.
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Feb 1, 2021 14:20
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It turns libraries into maintenance messes, makes it tougher to figure out what a given piece of code is doing and where it may need to be patched, and increases download time. Tangent: We don't live in a world with infinitely fast computers and networks; despite this implicit assumption in many modern codebases. Web devs and PMs in particular appear to not understand this. Dominoes fucked around with this message at 15:17 on Feb 1, 2021 |
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Feb 1, 2021 15:13
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The other thing that kills me: We have an npm package-lock file. We have a sub dependency. That sub dependency has a security flaw and we need to update it to a particular version. npm has no straightforward way to do just this.
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Feb 1, 2021 15:19
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I am not sure I've had a lot of good experiences with modules, I don't understand their appeal at all. When you look at for instance underscore, that library is really hard to figure out exactly what it's doing. Because if you try and read it, and maybe this is a personal problem of mine I like to know what code is doing, you become lost in a maze. With underscore at least it also doesn't have dependencies. I think it's one of the few out there anymore. Because then trying to figure out what's going on is pointless. You just have to trust that if there would be unexpected behaviour that someone would post about it on github. But none of that's necessary seeing as how I just want a pluck method. I don't need every possible one line utility method to go along with it, I'd just tell javascript to do what I want it to do. I don't need server-side jQuery to make a pluck method. Then someone clever comes along and uses underscore in a unique and interesting fashion, and when you manipulate the code around it the thing stops working. But the worst part is just keeping dependencies up to date all the time. There is no really easy way to do it, npm audit is okay, npm doctor is okay, package-lock is okay. But sooner or later you're going to have to nuke everything and re-install the latest versions and then figure out what changed and on and on. Npm is also not a very good package manager. I think it's frightening for almost an entire industry to keep running we need to rely on a small group of people with Twitter profiles. At some point there was a fiasco where npm was deleting servers because a patch update misused unix's unapologetic rm command. Or maybe I'm way out in left field, I feel like if ever I can get away with not using a module the project is better off. What is all that code even doing? Why is my library 6kb.
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Feb 1, 2021 16:21
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Null of Undefined posted:Jest has 3 dependencies, each of which has it's own dependencies. @jest-core alone has an additional 28, and you can bet each of those has their own dependencies. Let me rephrase then: "I have never needed to install any type of plugin or additional software for Jest to run any kind of tests once I have run the single command npm install -D jest so if having to find and install plugins for your test framework is what is bothering you, then Jest could be simpler than writing your own test framework."
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Feb 1, 2021 18:11
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A buddy of mine who quit the industry around 2010 is thinking about getting back into it and asked me what's changed since he was working in web development. I'm not sure he was ready for the avalanche of package managers and frameworks I was going to throw at him. Also "now you also put your CSS and your HTML into your JS" proved to be as much of a head scratcher as you'd expect.
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Feb 1, 2021 18:20
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“But wait,” he asks, “what about users who have turned off JS?” "lol" you say solemnly, "lmao." Data Graham fucked around with this message at 18:37 on Feb 1, 2021 |
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Feb 1, 2021 18:35
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kedo posted:A buddy of mine who quit the industry around 2010 is thinking about getting back into it and asked me what's changed since he was working in web development. I'm not sure he was ready for the avalanche of package managers and frameworks I was going to throw at him. Also "now you also put your CSS and your HTML into your JS" proved to be as much of a head scratcher as you'd expect. Tell him about Web Assembly. 
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Feb 1, 2021 19:54
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Whats the cheapest way to test out a website on a windows PC without having to buy a windows pc? Probably just rent a amazon server?
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Feb 1, 2021 20:36
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