(Thread IKs:
Nuns with Guns)
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Synder being a genius auteur who makes incisive, mature films absolutely skewering militarism and fascism is really funny next to the insistence that he's too loving stupid to understand The Fountainhead beyond a high school freshman level.
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Feb 3, 2021 20:21
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Schwarzwald posted:I think the over focus on Snyder's fans/haters is obscuring a larger problem, that being how major internet platforms (twitter and youtube especially) promote and thrive off of outrage. That's kinda what I was trying to say earlier, we can all agree that harassment is bad, but is every instance where a bunch of people are in your mentions disagreeing with you harassment? If it is, then twitter is a fundamentally flawed platform because that's the basic way it works. Snyder discourse is not on the level of Gamergate, or even Last Jedi, where there was a fiercely misogynist element hiding within one "side" of the argument that you can point to and say "they're the bad guys, they're organising a harassment campaign under the veil of authentic interaction". There's no ulterior Snyder cut motive, no secretive image boards where the leaders are coordinating. It's just a bunch of people who are easy to piss off. Like BTS fans. If there's not some universally unacceptable behaviour happening though, to what extent can you complain about hostile Snyder discourse when you're driving the discouse train back to Snyderville? As much as critics should be able to make videos on any given subject, people should be able to disagree over movies, and express that disagreement within reason on social media. And yeah, that might mean that like every other subject matter on twitter, you may have to not artitrarily be a jerk about something if you don't want a bunch of people telling you to gently caress off. But the only solution people seem willing to consider is that Snyder fans should all individually shut up, which is (if nothing else) implausible, and the more you say it, the worse the mood gets. StealthArcher posted:Jesus christ CD makes this thread loving garbage when they wander in. C'mon champ you made like five posts in the last two pages and they're all just whinging about how you don't like what's being posted about. e: fml top of another freakin page i'm gonna be here all year talking about this. please do not accuse me of apologising for death threats again.
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Feb 3, 2021 20:21
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:You're consistently one of the stupidest posters in this thread. lol ok
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Feb 3, 2021 20:23
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Parakeet vs. Phone posted:Synder being a genius auteur who makes incisive, mature films absolutely skewering militarism and fascism is really funny next to the insistence that he's too loving stupid to understand The Fountainhead beyond a high school freshman level. I don't think anyone is claiming he doesn't understand The Fountainhead, just that there's things to like about The Fountainhead that wouldn't necessarily qualify somebody as an objectivist.
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Feb 3, 2021 20:25
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Parakeet vs. Phone posted:Synder being a genius auteur who makes incisive, mature films absolutely skewering militarism and fascism is really funny next to the insistence that he's too loving stupid to understand The Fountainhead beyond a high school freshman level. I'll never get over the fact that I had a high-school English teacher who assigned the Fountainhead because she thought it was such an important book. We never did anything with the capitalist will to power stuff, though--it was all about how exciting she thought the idea of seeing a negative trait like selfishness as a virtue was. It was her first job out of college and she seemed like a bland liberal otherwise. If I could remember her name or find it anywhere, I would honestly try to find her and ask her what the hell she was thinking or what she thinks of it now.
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Feb 3, 2021 20:28
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Roth posted:That's an insane misreading of McCloud's post. He wasn't claiming everyone thought that, but that the guy who wrote the initial article was a sex pest, and that people should stop uncritically parroting it as fact. I'm not seeing how I'm misreading "People saw the article, uncritically parroted it and now it's a "fact" that's tossed around to dismiss either his work or him as terrible." McCloud says right there that the ground zero for the "Zack Snyder is a Randroid" talking point was the Devin Faraci article. They said that people have been "uncritically parroting" it ever since. So that's asserting that one creep is the only starting point for all this, and everyone who has said the same thing is copying Devin's words exactly. And then by extension I'm guessing the implication is that is both factually wrong and morally abhorrent because Devin's a creep and you shouldn't be spreading his words, his reading, around? I'm not seeing where there's an allowance for the reality people might come to that conclusion on their own, independent of an old article a sex creep wrote. Like I genuinely don't think Snyder is a fascist or Randroid, and I do feel like a lot of the issue with these movies something I've brought up before about superhero stories in general leaving a lot of open space for Objectivism to fill in, especially when they're leaning hard into "grim/gritty/mature" stuff, not just in the movies but you see it a ton in the comics, too. (Not helped by the times you do get giddy little crypto-fashes writing those comics.) I think you see the same kind of parallels here were people start side-eyeing stuff that you do with say, Brad Bird, and The Incredibles. People have been debating his political leanings from that and his subsequent films for a long time, too. Now, I think there is a separate issue at play as far as harassment and fan anger at any negative remarks about X or Y property. Like what Schwarzwald is saying here: Schwarzwald posted:I think the over focus on Snyder's fans/haters is obscuring a larger problem, that being how major internet platforms (twitter and youtube especially) promote and thrive off of outrage. I do agree that "fan outrage" and media feed back into each other, like the most unpleasant tubgirl cycle imaginable. You can see there's extended, vicious fan backlash, sometimes prodded by fuckers trying to make a quick buck on the anger, in a lot of other nerd media properties in the past decade. Star Wars is a big one, but even MCU stuff, hot new video games, some popular anime, etc. can boil over at any moment while everyone watches.
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Feb 3, 2021 20:29
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Nuns with Guns posted:Do you have actual data to back up a completely loving lunatic statement like "Everyone who ever said they saw objectivist ideological parallels in Zack Snyder's movies is a mindless NPC and puppet to a sexual predator"? Because that sounds like the same kind of sweeping absurdist caricature you're saying is unjust to apply to people who like Zack Snyder's movies. Actually yes. Searching for any mentions of Snyder and objectivism prior to that article being published will bring up zero relevant hits. It's only after that article that comparisons start getting made. You'll get a few hits about a Tom Snyder, but unless that's a pseudonym... Nuns with Guns posted:
So, basically your stance is this? https://twitter.com/tylerthecreator/status/285670822264307712?s=20 Cool, then Patrick doesn't need to be bothered about the toxic fans harassing him then! Thanks for solving this dilemma, NWG! (Before NWG claims that this is endorsement of harassing people on the internet, I'll point out that this was sarcasm) Karloff posted:Signing on to direct The Fountainhead is more than enough grounds to suspect someone maybe at least a bit sympathetic to the philosophy of Ayn Rand, even if they're not a full on believer. The fountainhead is a book about a dude so obsessed his creative vision that he's willing to burn down his work to avoid compromises on it. There's a clear reason why someone in the movie industry would find that appealing that doesn't involve being sympathetic to that hokus pokus philosophy, and again, there's a difference to suspect someone "maybe at least a bit sympathetic to the philosophy of Ayn Rand" and arguing that his films are objectivist propaganda ZenMasterBullshit posted:You're consistently one of the stupidest posters in this thread. gently caress off with that poo poo McCloud fucked around with this message at 20:34 on Feb 3, 2021 |
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Feb 3, 2021 20:30
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Roth posted:I don't think anyone is claiming he doesn't understand The Fountainhead, just that there's things to like about The Fountainhead that wouldn't necessarily qualify somebody as an objectivist. Yea if nothing else you don't see objectivist claims being thrown at the likes of say, Steven Spielberg or Oliver Stone even though the former likes it and the latter wanted to make an adaption of it.
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Feb 3, 2021 20:33
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Seems like nearly everyone involved in this utterly unreadable argument is making up more ridiculous versions of the arguments that they disagree with and then responding to those. Please god can we institute a threadban on Snyderchat. It has never produced a fruitful discussion.
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Feb 3, 2021 20:37
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Ayn Rand was hugely, unironically popular in California (especially) in the 80s through the 90s and a large number of people who got famous in that time period were big into The Fountainhead.
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Feb 3, 2021 20:41
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Ariong posted:Seems like nearly everyone involved in this utterly unreadable argument is making up more ridiculous versions of the arguments that they disagree with and then responding to those. Please god can we institute a threadban on Snyderchat. It has never produced a fruitful discussion. Yeah this. This is like the 4rth Snyder derail in this version of the thread alone. (and this thread is only 134 pages long so far) How many times are we going to have the exact same argument?  Besides, isn't there an entire thread dedicated to Snyder chat in CD? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7zF81IU8gc&ab_channel=SpongeMoments
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Feb 3, 2021 20:46
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HEY. What are some cool channels that examine history though cultural facets of the time ? I've gotten into historical food ( Townsends, Tasting History ) and historical costuming ( Bernadette Banner, Morgan Donner ) and wondering if there was some other COOL STUFF I have been missing out on. EDIT: Should I wait to ask this after the Snyderchat??? 
Twincityhacker fucked around with this message at 20:48 on Feb 3, 2021 |
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Feb 3, 2021 20:46
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the book about the rapist architect is bad imo
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Feb 3, 2021 20:46
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what's the value in The Fountainhead to non-objectivists? i could see Greenspan third-way neoliberals liking it as well I guess since their ideology incorporates diluted free market objectivism
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Feb 3, 2021 20:47
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McCloud posted:Actually yes. Searching for any mentions of Snyder and objectivism prior to that article being published will bring up zero relevant hits. It's only after that article that comparisons start getting made. You'll get a few hits about a Tom Snyder, but unless that's a pseudonym... Okay, so why would a lack of any easily googled articles before March 17th, 2016 mean that everyone since then has been mindlessly parroting it after reading that article? Was it not possible to have similar interpretations separate from that? McCloud posted:So, basically your stance is this? No, my stance is: Nuns with Guns posted:That is not what I mean at all, but I'd love to see where anyone insinuates you're a nazi for liking a Superman movie. I'd also love to see why it's appropriate to imply everyone who says there Objectivist implications in Snyder movies is an unthinking drone/enabler of a sexual predator, while we're at it. Both those seem pretty loving poo poo and I'm not clear on why one gets a pass and the other doesn't to you. McCloud posted:Cool, then Patrick doesn't need to be bothered about the toxic fans harassing him then! Thanks for solving this dilemma, NWG! There's a difference between mass harassment or threats and getting into an individual comment fight with someone who goes "Whatever, you like a specific movie, so you're a Nazi and I win this argument!" Are you or were you being harassed or threatened for liking Zack Snyder's movies? CYBEReris posted:what's the value in The Fountainhead to non-objectivists? i could see Greenspan third-way neoliberals liking it as well I guess since their ideology incorporates diluted free market objectivism Snyder's remarks on The Fountainhead and why he likes it were something like "It's a fun sexy drama about architecture" so maybe something like that? Nuns with Guns fucked around with this message at 20:49 on Feb 3, 2021 |
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Feb 3, 2021 20:47
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Nuns with Guns posted:I'm not seeing how I'm misreading "People saw the article, uncritically parroted it and now it's a "fact" that's tossed around to dismiss either his work or him as terrible." McCloud says right there that the ground zero for the "Zack Snyder is a Randroid" talking point was the Devin Faraci article. They said that people have been "uncritically parroting" it ever since. So that's asserting that one creep is the only starting point for all this, and everyone who has said the same thing is copying Devin's words exactly. And then by extension I'm guessing the implication is that is both factually wrong and morally abhorrent because Devin's a creep and you shouldn't be spreading his words, his reading, around? Apologies, I misread your original post as saying that everybody repeating it was a sex pest. I went back and realized I didn't read properly. In any case, I'm gonna copy/paste what I said elsewhere There's plenty of directors/movies I like more than Snyder and his films. The difference is that I don't have people accusing me of heinous things or questioning my intelligence for saying "I think Batman Returns is a great movie" or "I'm pretty into Godzilla movies." If you want to make that into me being a baby, go ahead, but I find it perfectly reasonable that people aren't fond of it. I also find it absurd to pearl clutching about toxic fandom, and then tell people to deal with it in return.
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Feb 3, 2021 20:48
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Karloff posted:If I decide to devote three years of my life to adapting someone's novel, there might be a chance I like that author's work. Nah, that's not true. You can do a movie adaptation and just make it absolute garbage despite that. Just look at the newest Hellboy, or Eragon and Artemis Fowl. Movies are just like essays, you can make one without being actually interested in it at all!
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Feb 3, 2021 20:52
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This has been uploaded a while ago and I didn't see anyone post here so Big Joel on the ending of The Last Airbender https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ip1xe7JFb-g
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Feb 3, 2021 20:52
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CYBEReris posted:what's the value in The Fountainhead to non-objectivists? i could see Greenspan third-way neoliberals liking it as well I guess since their ideology incorporates diluted free market objectivism Snyder, at least, views it as a thesis on art. About not compromising on an artist's vision, and rather seeing it destroyed than have it be compromised. He also thinks that Rand herself was a nut that drank her own kool-aid.
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Feb 3, 2021 20:54
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CYBEReris posted:what's the value in The Fountainhead to non-objectivists? i could see Greenspan third-way neoliberals liking it as well I guess since their ideology incorporates diluted free market objectivism Greenspan was literally in Rand's inner circle and is probably the single biggest historical influence her work had - but even he wasn't exactly gripped by the fruitier philosophical end of things. Rand's fiction is the capitalist dream - heady tales of great individuals moving heaven and earth to see their vision brought to life, with success and failure entirely in their own power. It's unrealistic, and the prose got increasingly worse as she retreated into her cult, but there's a romance to it.
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Feb 3, 2021 20:54
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CYBEReris posted:what's the value in The Fountainhead to non-objectivists? i could see Greenspan third-way neoliberals liking it as well I guess since their ideology incorporates diluted free market objectivism If you don't read too deeply into it, it's a book about a creative genius struggling to make a masterpiece against the system. That's pretty common, or at least a lot of goons have mentioned that being the takeaway if you read it in high school. But one would think you'd have a better understanding of it if you wanted to devote yourself to a film  . Also, Atun-Shei just put out a neat, short look at The New World. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ziV5DBf0oyY Discussion includes old-style Making Of documentaries, pretentious critics and historical accuracy. I thought was kind of interesting.
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Feb 3, 2021 20:56
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Twincityhacker posted:HEY. Most of this guy's videos are about historical sword-fighting, which is pretty blah to me, but this video about how medieval Europeans walked absolutely fascinates me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EszwYNvvCjQ Until I saw it, I had always wondered why people in illustrated manuscripts always look like they're prancing around.
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Feb 3, 2021 20:57
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Roth posted:That's an insane misreading of McCloud's post. He wasn't claiming everyone thought that, but that the guy who wrote the initial article was a sex pest, and that people should stop uncritically parroting it as fact. Karloff posted:When have I ever said that people who like his films are Nazis. Don't loving dare give me that poo poo! I like the marvel films, and people attack them for their militarism all the time, but I don't poo poo myself because I know they're attacking the FILMS, not ME, why don't you get that!? Why is one okay, and not the other?
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Feb 3, 2021 21:06
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Roth posted:There's plenty of directors/movies I like more than Snyder and his films. The difference is that I don't have people accusing me of heinous things or questioning my intelligence for saying "I think Batman Returns is a great movie" or "I'm pretty into Godzilla movies." I mean I've been called an "infantile moron" for liking Transformers movies. It sucks but you can't dwell on it. If I was constantly bringing up Michael Bay movies and starting derails over it, I probably would have been thread banned a long time ago, and for good reason. The fact of the matter is Patrick H Williams has never called anyone a nazi or an idiot for liking a movie he doesn't like. In fact, he's pretty chill about dissenting opinions. (Like in his Rise of Skywalker review he said "hey, if you enjoyed this movie, great! I'm happy for you. And envious, I wish I enjoyed it too!") so acting like a mob swarming PHW is somehow justified or fair game is pretty gross. He's a critic. Critics review movies. Dogpiling critics because they don't share your views is lovely. Sorry Anyway, yeah, I know I'm a hypocrite for saying to stop Snyder posting than making a Snyder post myself.
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Feb 3, 2021 21:07
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Jamie Faith posted:I mean I've been called an "infantile moron" for liking Transformers movies. It sucks but you can't dwell on it. If I was constantly bringing up Michael Bay movies and starting derails over it, I probably would have been thread banned a long time ago, and for good reason. There aren't Youtubers making videos about Michael Bay every few weeks or so, so that would be pretty weird if you kept on bringing up Michael bay movies.
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Feb 3, 2021 21:09
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Roth posted:Apologies, I misread your original post as saying that everybody repeating it was a sex pest. I went back and realized I didn't read properly. Oh, that makes more sense, sorry for any confusion. I don't think harassing people or attacking them or even dismissing them for liking certain movies, books, games, etc. is good or acceptable, especially if you don't have any context for why someone likes something or they might have an interesting and nuanced take on what's appealing about it. But I don't think it's a "toxic fandom" thing if people are conflating liking Snyder movies with awful political leanings. Or well, I guess statistically some people have to be dumb enough to go "I like Marvel movies, unlike those fashy DC movies!" But that doesn't seem like a notable number people you (general you) might be debating on the merits of Snyder films with online? I suppose if you went around to enough on twitter you could trip over a few, but that's such an empty void of worthwhile discussion that I just don't see the point in getting bothered if someone spews some nonsense at you there.
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Feb 3, 2021 21:10
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CYBEReris posted:what's the value in The Fountainhead to non-objectivists? i could see Greenspan third-way neoliberals liking it as well I guess since their ideology incorporates diluted free market objectivism when you ignore the politics it's a fantasy about a true artist rising to the top despite numerous greater forces trying to pull him down, wherein good people are naturally deferent to him, and bad people are either converted or rightfully cast down into immiseration as "second-hander" hacks. on that level it's still a shallow, embarrassing one of those though.
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Feb 3, 2021 21:10
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Roth posted:There aren't Youtubers making videos about Michael Bay every few weeks or so, so that would be pretty weird if you kept on bringing up Michael bay movies. Willems actually has done videos on Michael Bay which were quite interesting https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyx7YRU4trs.
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Feb 3, 2021 21:13
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Roth posted:There aren't Youtubers making videos about Michael Bay every few weeks or so, so that would be pretty weird if you kept on bringing up Michael bay movies. You're right. Lindsay Ellis really should bring back her The Whole Plate segment.
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Feb 3, 2021 21:15
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Nuns with Guns posted:Oh, that makes more sense, sorry for any confusion. I'm being genuine in that I think the Snyderdome in Cine D has been the only place I can talk about Snyder movies without being somehow insulted. Please note, I'm in no way suggesting that it's cool that people harass Youtubers. I'm simply explaining that from my POV, there's a lot of assumptions being thrown the way of me and my friends over a movie, and I think it sucks that the reaction to it is "Get over it"
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Feb 3, 2021 21:18
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Roth posted:I'm being genuine in that I think the Snyderdome in Cine D has been the only place I can talk about Snyder movies without being somehow insulted. You're right. That does suck. But don't forget, this whole derail started because Josh04 implied that PHW was somehow just as bad if not worse than the mob (and a hypocrite too)because he dared to make a Snyder retrospective a Patreon goal. Also it's funny that CD is the only place that hasn't insulted you over this because that's actually the very forum I was called an infantile moron lol Jamie Faith fucked around with this message at 21:26 on Feb 3, 2021 |
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Feb 3, 2021 21:22
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Antifa Turkeesian posted:Most of this guy's videos are about historical sword-fighting, which is pretty blah to me, but this video about how medieval Europeans walked absolutely fascinates me: I have seen this before, and I'm not sure what to think about it? The video man makes a good case, but I've also read articles debating his findings so I'm like . Since the archeological record shows that humans have been heel-toe walkers since the beginning, would the type of shoe change the stride that much?
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Feb 3, 2021 21:24
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Parakeet vs. Phone posted:If you don't read too deeply into it, it's a book about a creative genius struggling to make a masterpiece against the system. That's pretty common, or at least a lot of goons have mentioned that being the takeaway if you read it in high school. But one would think you'd have a better understanding of it if you wanted to devote yourself to a film Oh man, I remember hating that movie when I saw it in theaters but the costumes are incredible.
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Feb 3, 2021 21:30
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Roth posted:I'm being genuine in that I think the Snyderdome in Cine D has been the only place I can talk about Snyder movies without being somehow insulted. I mean, it does suck about getting judged by other people for your choice in media. I don't really know what else you can do besides move past it if you encounter an individual out there who dismisses everything you say on those grounds and has no interest in a genuine conversation about it. Uninquisitive idiots shouldn't ruin your enjoyment of something, but I don't think they can be talked past it if they won't engage with you in an honest way.
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Feb 3, 2021 21:30
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And ultimately I'm looking at the power dynamics; I think multimillionaire Zack Snyder isn't going to lose sleep over youtube videos
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Feb 3, 2021 21:30
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Jamie Faith posted:You're right. That does suck. But don't forget, this whole derail started because Josh04 implied that PHW was somehow just as bad if not worse than the mob (and a hypocrite too)because he dared to make a Snyder retrospective a Patreon goal I'll just read my posts in a video and then they'll be unassaible criticism that the thread isn't allowed to tell me I'm an idiot for saying.
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Feb 3, 2021 21:30
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Jamie Faith posted:You're right. That does suck. But don't forget, this whole derail started because Josh04 implied that PHW was somehow just as bad if not worse than the mob (and a hypocrite too)because he dared to make a Snyder retrospective a Patreon goal. Not to pretend that CD doesn't have its problems, but I think it's genuinely cool that Cine D is one of the few places where it feels like people can talk about movies that are commonly derided as bad (Snyder, Star Wars prequels, Bayformers), and not have people immediately resort to cheap dunks like so much of the internet. I don't know if you've read it, but Cine D did have one of my favorite forum reads ever which was about Bayformers: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3571842 A lot of really cool and productive discussion, though you need archives for the original thread. It's all in a pdf file as well if you just want to read the OPs.
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Feb 3, 2021 21:31
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CD is a cool place, but Snyder discourse is so loving tiring.
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Feb 3, 2021 21:33
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Nuns with Guns posted:Nobody said they should never be R-rated. This thread had this exact same discussion last time. Did you huff some helium and black out partway through the conversation then? Yeah, and what of it!! It’s a fun time and makes you have a silly voice
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Feb 3, 2021 21:35
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Roth posted:"I think Batman Returns is a great movie" What kind of sicko...! I'm goofing! You watch Returns in recent times? That film is such a weird, unfiltered thing. It's Tim Burton being the most Tim Burton by way of Batman. I think he really likes the rogue gallery of villains Batman has. Returns felt like a film the studio had to step in and ask "so, where's Batman?" and he just threw the character in there to placate them. Not sure about his work these days but 90's Burton-directed film about any one of those villains would have probably been pretty amazing and weird.
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Feb 3, 2021 21:36
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