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Didn't Duggan give a weird response when asked why Kate didn't always have her Star of David necklace?
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Feb 3, 2021 23:28
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As someone from a Jewish background the Star of David necklace thing is kind of a non-issue imo. It's one of those things that's a handy little bit of visual character information for the character but in my experience it is not any sort of widespread cultural shibboleth, and certainly not wearing the same necklace every day isn't any kind of big no-no I've ever heard of. It would be one thing I suppose if Duggan were sweeping her faith under the rug entirely but I don't believe he is (although we could quibble about her tattoos I guess). Indeed I feel like when it comes up he handles it with more sweetness and grace than any other writer to handle Kitty since Claremont. The Joe Bennett thing is really disappointing to me though. I really thought the scene with Ben Grimm talking about his Bar Mitzvah in Immortal Hulk a few issues back was very well-done and I thought Bennett really did a wonderful job. I also have effused in the past about how much I like how he draws Charlene McGowan, so this is doubly painful.
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Feb 4, 2021 00:24
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I think the star of David for Kitty was more of a cultural signifier for the audience than something for the character itself. A new reader can pick up an X-Men comic, see the necklace, and identify the character as Jewish. For Jewish readers that kind of representation is appreciated. It isn't vital that the character have the necklace in every appearance but it is just a nice thing to see every now and again.
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Feb 4, 2021 00:44
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Madkal posted:I think the star of David for Kitty was more of a cultural signifier for the audience than something for the character itself. A new reader can pick up an X-Men comic, see the necklace, and identify the character as Jewish. For Jewish readers that kind of representation is appreciated. It isn't vital that the character have the necklace in every appearance but it is just a nice thing to see every now and again. if only she had ever worn the star of david in any of her other appearances in Marauders, like the one that is included in the same tweet for some reason in order to illustrate that kate pryde can't wear one anymore????
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Feb 4, 2021 00:46
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Madkal posted:I think the star of David for Kitty was more of a cultural signifier for the audience than something for the character itself. A new reader can pick up an X-Men comic, see the necklace, and identify the character as Jewish. For Jewish readers that kind of representation is appreciated. It isn't vital that the character have the necklace in every appearance but it is just a nice thing to see every now and again. It's not a thing she always wears though. She has one in God Loves Man Kills where she uses the N-word, but not one in Uncanny #196, the other time she says the N-word. more importantly (because X-Men comics are actually way better at contemporary stylings as a whole than most mainstream comics) she's wearing a nice dress with an exposed neckline in God Loves... and a button up with a jacket kinda similar to what she's wearing in Marauders, so I think she probably wears it as a piece of jewelry when you're trying to look nice, which is a little different than being a pirate on a boat.
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Feb 4, 2021 01:02
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Skwirl posted:It's not a thing she always wears though. She has one in God Loves Man Kills where she uses the N-word, but not one in Uncanny #196, the other time she says the N-word. That's kind of what I was thinking when I did a quick reread of the last few Marauders issues. She doesn't wear it on a boat in a storm because like-- wearing a long loose necklace like that is no picnic in strong winds and presumably she doesn't want it to fly into the ocean.
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Feb 4, 2021 01:05
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How Wonderful! posted:That's kind of what I was thinking when I did a quick reread of the last few Marauders issues. She doesn't wear it on a boat in a storm because like-- wearing a long loose necklace like that is no picnic in strong winds and presumably she doesn't want it to fly into the ocean. She doesn't have one in the Bendis comic where she talks about how important her Jewish heritage is to her while trashing Havok's "M-word" speech, so the necklace is clearly not something a Jewish writer thought was integral to her either.
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Feb 4, 2021 01:13
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WWAC wrote about erasing her Jewish heritage in the funeral issue. https://womenwriteaboutcomics.com/2020/08/marauders-11-buries-kate-prydes-jewish-legacy-rts/ This is beyond my experience to comment on, just found it an interesting perspective.
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Feb 4, 2021 01:13
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Uthor posted:WWAC wrote about erasing her Jewish heritage in the funeral issue. Ehh, I think it's part of a larger thing of Krakoan mutants diverging from human concepts of religion. Nightcrawler is no longer Catholic and they just announced a new book that's supposedly gonna be partially about him developing a new mutant religion. Edit: The larger issue would be that Ben Grimm is basically the only other prominent Jewish superhero and it's come up for him a lot less often, so I understand feeling like they lost something. If there was better representation in comics Kate Pryde could become the next Goblin Queen and it wouldn't feel like a religious attack (just an attack on good taste). Air Skwirl fucked around with this message at 01:21 on Feb 4, 2021 |
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Feb 4, 2021 01:18
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I found that article deeply silly in a lot of ways. Many, many Jewish people in the 21st century get tattoos (I have tons, and my late best friend was covered in the drat things). Many are cremated (in most Jewish cemeteries in the US, there is nothing preventing cremated bodies from being buried on consecrated ground, a position actively advocated by Reform theology, ditto there is nothing preventing a rabbi from conducting funeral services for a cremated person). The Kate/Kitty thing is ridiculous. If Kate had a history of being shown as deeply religious observant, especially as an Orthodox or Conservative Jew, this would be a different conversation. But to my knowledge she never has. The article seemed fixated on there being one specific way of being Jewish, one specific set of taboos, one right way to "do" Judaism, and that makes me roll my eyes hard.
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Feb 4, 2021 01:27
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Ben Grimm better be Jewish forever because he’s pretty much Jack Kirby. Regarding Kitty this seems more “let’s stir up some poo poo” with a side of an editor that should have been more on the ball with the poor lettering on the jewelry shop. If the creators on those books have no history of questionable stuff, no problem. It’s worth examining “is this erasure?” and people won’t have the same answer, but it’s Marvel’s mess to clean up either way.
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Feb 4, 2021 01:39
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We had a dive into Ben's faith not two months ago in Immortal Hulk
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Feb 4, 2021 01:41
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SUPERMAN'S GAL PAL posted:Regarding Kitty this seems more “let’s stir up some poo poo” with a side of an editor that should have been more on the ball with the poor lettering on the jewelry shop. If the creators on those books have no history of questionable stuff, no problem. It’s worth examining “is this erasure?” and people won’t have the same answer, but it’s Marvel’s mess to clean up either way. To clarify, just because it is a little bit confusing, there are two issues being talked in the original tweet. The Kate Pryde thing is separate from the shop window thing, which happened in this week's Immortal Hulk #43.
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Feb 4, 2021 01:43
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I'm Jewish and was raised in a Jewish Conservative household. Like I mentioned before I did appreciate seeing characters acknowledge their Jewish heritage and appreciate the representation in it. I didn't grow up with Kitty in my X-Men diet (I got into the X-Men thanks to the cartoon which Kitty wasn't apart of and read the X-Men comics that she wasn't apart of either). I did manage to read Kitty X-Men comics later on in life but she was never a character a knew much about at the time. Reading those comics with her later on though was very eye opening as she was a very proud Jewish character which you don't really see much. As for the article above, it is rather nitpicky, especially in the name thing and the tattoo thing. My mom is vehemently anti tattoo but my brother has several, I have one, and I know many others from the synagogue that have at least one. This doesn't mean we don't acknowledge the tattooing of numbers on Holocaust victims. Cremation is another sticking point and the writer of the article is coming into the whole thing from a more conservative/orthodox lens than a more modern one. I do agree that the fact there weren't any Jewish aspects to the funeral is disconcerting - it absolutely is and that is where I see the erasure, but not in the stuff like a character giving themselves a more "adult sounding" name, and getting a tattoo.
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Feb 4, 2021 02:32
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SUPERMAN'S GAL PAL posted:Ben Grimm better be Jewish forever because he’s pretty much Jack Kirby. It's two different books in two different areas of Marvel comics, so they don't share a writer, artist or editor. Which is the main reason I have an issue with bringing Kate Pryde into it.
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Feb 4, 2021 02:41
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I really hope the Joe Bennett thing is a mistake. That's loving awful.
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Feb 4, 2021 03:09
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Cartridgeblowers posted:I really hope the Joe Bennett thing is a mistake. That's loving awful. There is absolutely no way it is a mistake. He's done this poo poo before.
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Feb 4, 2021 03:10
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Not wearing the star of David in every appearance is easy enough to hand wave away, the giant star of David on the "Jewery Store" window is damning
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Feb 4, 2021 03:25
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ImpAtom posted:There is absolutely no way it is a mistake. He's done this poo poo before. Oh is there a history to it? gently caress. That's awful. Fire that dude.
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Feb 4, 2021 03:29
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It's also the Cronemberg Jewery store.
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Feb 4, 2021 03:46
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ImpAtom posted:There is absolutely no way it is a mistake. He's done this poo poo before. Someone in the Marvel thread said he had a history of anti trans stuff and alt right support, is this something that’s come up in the forums / publicly before? I tried to look online and I didn’t see anything blatant but I also might not have looked hard enough. And to be crystal clear: I believe you, and I am not trying to “I’m sure it’s all conjecture and misinterpretation”. I’m sad this wasn’t known more widely before and I want to be better about being aware if poo poo like this happens again.
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Feb 4, 2021 04:59
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Cael posted:Someone in the Marvel thread said he had a history of anti trans stuff and alt right support, is this something that’s come up in the forums / publicly before? I tried to look online and I didn’t see anything blatant but I also might not have looked hard enough. This is not the first time that the Immortal Hulk artist, a longtime comic book artist from Brazil who has been working in mainstream comics, primarily for Marvel, since 1994, has drawn controversy for his views. In 2019, when gay journalist Glenn Greenwald was assaulted by a far-right journalist, Bennett said that Greenwald should have been punched rather than slapped. Bennett apologized and deleted his comment. Last year, when Bennett posted a drawing of She-Hulk on his Instagram, a fan replied, "Oh look, it's Hulk's angry transgender son," to which Bennett responded with laughing emojis.
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Feb 4, 2021 05:17
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Glenn Greenwald is a piece of poo poo who just mocked a member of congress for fearing for their life during the Jan 6th insurrection attempt, but the transphobic poo poo is terrible.
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Feb 4, 2021 05:28
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Skwirl posted:Glenn Greenwald is a piece of poo poo who just mocked a member of congress for fearing for their life during the Jan 6th insurrection attempt, but the transphobic poo poo is terrible. Correct on both counts, I was just copying it over.
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Feb 4, 2021 05:31
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packetmantis posted:It's also the Cronemberg Jewery store. I'm not getting this, and I'm sure getting this will make me want to destroy myself even more so than usual... ...so, what is specifically bad about Cornemburg?
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Feb 4, 2021 08:08
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It's.. the cronenberg misspelling you're having trouble with?
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Feb 4, 2021 08:11
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Samovar posted:I'm not getting this, and I'm sure getting this will make me want to destroy myself even more so than usual... anything with "berg" on the end is probably a Jewish last name, but I don't know anything associated with that name in specific, it's not like "Rothschild" or "Soros" when trying to bring up anti-semitic conspiricies.
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Feb 4, 2021 08:12
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Skwirl posted:anything with "berg" on the end is probably a Jewish last name, but I don't know anything associated with that name in specific, it's not like "Rothschild" or "Soros" when trying to bring up anti-semitic conspiricies. Think horror films.
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Feb 4, 2021 08:15
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Skwirl posted:anything with "berg" on the end is probably a Jewish last name, but I don't know anything associated with that name in specific, it's not like "Rothschild" or "Soros" when trying to bring up anti-semitic conspiricies. Oh. I've been living in Sweden so long that I forgot that was a thing. (Since berg means mountain and is a very common suffix here in people's names... And also for mountains)
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Feb 4, 2021 08:18
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Cronenberg is clearly an influence on the Immortal Hulk, so it could have been a cute reference in a different context.
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Feb 4, 2021 08:19
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Oh, yeah, Cronenberg the director is definitely a huge influence on this book, not only in terms of writing, but several of the artists are clearly fans of his work.
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Feb 4, 2021 08:37
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Yeah, I meant the berg ending, sorry.
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Feb 4, 2021 09:47
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Honestly, if it wasn't for the star of David on the window, I'd chalk it up to a mistake by Bennett (he's Brazilian, so I assume English isn't his first language, though "JEWERY" should have been caught by the editor in any case), and jewelry shops with Jewish-sounding names definitely aren't unheard of in NY, plus it's an homage to a director who is clearly an influence on the book. The big star of David really pulls it all together in a bad way, though.
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Feb 4, 2021 14:36
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Yeah you don't accidentally draw a big star of David
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Feb 4, 2021 16:56
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Thanks to everyone clarifying this. gently caress em, that’s what I get for hoping “oh it must be a mistake.” It’s NEVER a mistake/one-off!
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Feb 4, 2021 17:16
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Taking Kitty not constantly wearing a Star of David necklace as trying to downplay her Jewishness is dumb, but she should definitely be eating deep dish pizza more often and this is a tragic erasure of her heritage.
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Feb 5, 2021 00:42
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She needs to be yelling about ketchup on hotdogs at every cookout. 
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Feb 5, 2021 01:00
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Nuns with Guns posted:Taking Kitty not constantly wearing a Star of David necklace as trying to downplay her Jewishness is dumb, but she should definitely be eating deep dish pizza more often and this is a tragic erasure of her heritage. She's from New York, she would never eat a deep dish.
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Feb 5, 2021 01:07
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No she's not, Deerfield, IL.
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Feb 5, 2021 01:12
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Uthor posted:No she's not, Deerfield, IL. Oh poo poo, then I guess they should have a few panels of her eating terrible pizza every so often. I just assume all the Claremont X-Men not from a different continent are from New York.
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Feb 5, 2021 01:14
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