Grognard Games Megathread - Registered Hex Offenders.

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Gort: Aug 18, 2003; Good day what ho cup of tea

Pharnakes posted:

Yes but bombing accuracy in WitP is hosed.

I never quite got the reason behind this. They calculate your chance to hit for every bomb that is dropped, so bombers that drop many bombs have an unrealistically high chance to hit a ship.

So why not:

1. Model bombs in "sticks", so that say, ten bombs dropped together are calculated as one big bomb for the purposes of hitting and damaging targets

or

2. Make the accuracy per bomb on a heavy bomber very low so the overall chance of hits is also low

Feels like either would solve the problem

# ? Feb 4, 2021 00:26

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# ? Jun 10, 2024 20:46

Pharnakes: Aug 14, 2009

There are a whole lot of from the outside relatively minor tweaks that would improve witp by a lot, but they never happened. E.G Phase resolution of AM strike, movement, PM strike instead of movement, AM strike, PM strike. Or adding a proper depth stat to submarines rather than piggybacking off durability, so a submarine doesn't take the same number of non depth charge hits as a light cruiser to sink. Or allowing a strike package whose target has been sunk to target a different TF in the same hex, ect ect.

I put it down to a mixture of spaghetti code meaning none of this is a simple to fix as we think it is, and grog developer egos being incapable of taking criticism. The fact that the only people the devs interact with are diehard matrix forum goers who would defend any decision no matter how moronic to the death and will run off anyone who wants to actually discuss the game rather than fellate the devs only exacerbates this.

# ? Feb 4, 2021 00:34

Private Speech: Mar 30, 2011; I HAVE EVEN MORE WORTHLESS BEANIE BABIES IN MY COLLECTION THAN I HAVE WORTHLESS POSTS IN THE BEANIE BABY THREAD YET I STILL HAVE THE TEMERITY TO CRITICIZE OTHERS' COLLECTIONS

IF YOU SEE ME TALKING ABOUT BEANIE BABIES, PLEASE TELL ME TO

EAT. SHIT.

Gort posted:

I never quite got the reason behind this. They calculate your chance to hit for every bomb that is dropped, so bombers that drop many bombs have an unrealistically high chance to hit a ship.

So why not:

1. Model bombs in "sticks", so that say, ten bombs dropped together are calculated as one big bomb for the purposes of hitting and damaging targets

or

2. Make the accuracy per bomb on a heavy bomber very low so the overall chance of hits is also low

Feels like either would solve the problem

I think the complaint was that the chance to hit is too low, not too high :v:

# ? Feb 4, 2021 00:35

Gort: Aug 18, 2003; Good day what ho cup of tea

Really? I'd always heard it as "stupid heavy bombers are constantly hitting my ships when in reality they rarely managed that"

WitP always baffles me because they veer wildly between simulating way too much stuff and doing wild generalisations. Like they'll name every pilot and track their every kill and give them stats, and every infantry squad is individually modelled down to individual bits of gear which also have stats, but a pile of supplies is completely nebulous. Those supplies might be bombs, they might be food, they might be bullets, they might be goddamn patrol boats, you'll never know until they're used.

Gort fucked around with this message at 01:01 on Feb 4, 2021

# ? Feb 4, 2021 00:55

Pharnakes: Aug 14, 2009

Chances in general are a little high I feel, but yes it's particularly egregious with heavy bombers.

For example I once sunk Fuso when my opponent left her for one turn in a harbour within range of my B-17s. I think it took something like 20 hits but she burnt out and that was that. Ridiculous.

# ? Feb 4, 2021 00:57

Jobbo_Fett: Mar 7, 2014; Slava Ukrayini; Clapping Larry

Pharnakes posted:

Chances in general are a little high I feel, but yes it's particularly egregious with heavy bombers.

For example I once sunk Fuso when my opponent left her for one turn in a harbour within range of my B-17s. I think it took something like 20 hits but she burnt out and that was that. Ridiculous.

20 hits should be nearly impossible, even against a stationary target in harbour. Bombers don't just line up single file against a target and heavy bombers had a hard time hitting bombs in open waters.

# ? Feb 4, 2021 01:40

BrotherJayne: Nov 28, 2019

Having bomb loads not cluster is ridiculous

# ? Feb 4, 2021 01:48

Chuck_D: Aug 25, 2003

Gort posted:

Really? I'd always heard it as "stupid heavy bombers are constantly hitting my ships when in reality they rarely managed that"

WitP always baffles me because they veer wildly between simulating way too much stuff and doing wild generalisations. Like they'll name every pilot and track their every kill and give them stats, and every infantry squad is individually modelled down to individual bits of gear which also have stats, but a pile of supplies is completely nebulous. Those supplies might be bombs, they might be food, they might be bullets, they might be goddamn patrol boats, you'll never know until they're used.

Supplies: the gift that keeps on giving... by the ton.

My experience with WitP is that any aircraft level bombing ships north of 1000' altitude will never hit. Outside of the game low-alt skip bombing thing, I've never heard anyone accuse level bombing of being too accurate in WitP.

# ? Feb 4, 2021 02:59

Bold Robot: Jan 6, 2009; Be brave.

Gewehr 43 posted:

My experience with WitP is that any aircraft level bombing ships north of 1000' altitude will never hit. Outside of the game low-alt skip bombing thing, I've never heard anyone accuse level bombing of being too accurate in WitP.

# ? Feb 4, 2021 03:48

ZombieLenin: Sep 6, 2009; "Democracy for the insignificant minority, democracy for the rich--that is the democracy of capitalist society." VI Lenin

[/quote]

Gort posted:

Really? I'd always heard it as "stupid heavy bombers are constantly hitting my ships when in reality they rarely managed that"

WitP always baffles me because they veer wildly between simulating way too much stuff and doing wild generalisations. Like they'll name every pilot and track their every kill and give them stats, and every infantry squad is individually modelled down to individual bits of gear which also have stats, but a pile of supplies is completely nebulous. Those supplies might be bombs, they might be food, they might be bullets, they might be goddamn patrol boats, you'll never know until they're used.

No, heavy bombers are a problem maybe for wrecking the gently caress out of bases, industry, and supply more than they even did historically; but hitting ships, no loving way.

As the Allied player in a multiplayer game during early game you sometimes desperately send heavy bombers after ships, and even then you set them at 1,000 feet and pray.

I think I�ve literally seen 3 heavy bomber hits on a ship in more than half a decade playing the game.

# ? Feb 4, 2021 04:04

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

Gort posted:

1. Model bombs in "sticks", so that say, ten bombs dropped together are calculated as one big bomb for the purposes of hitting and damaging targets

I've seen one WITP mod that did it this way

# ? Feb 4, 2021 04:52

Unimpressed: Feb 13, 2013

Yooper posted:

I do have a site that handles this sort of stuff irregularly and would welcome other folks to write there. My focus is on poo poo I enjoy, which lately is CMO / CO2 tutorials. So if you want to write, ala Goohammer, let me know.

What is it? I'd love to read those.

# ? Feb 4, 2021 07:25

BrotherJayne: Nov 28, 2019

Unimpressed posted:

What is it? I'd love to read those.

https://weaponsrelease.com I think

# ? Feb 4, 2021 07:34

Unimpressed: Feb 13, 2013

BrotherJayne posted:

https://weaponsrelease.com I think

Thanks, bookmarked, it looks very good!

# ? Feb 4, 2021 07:48

AARP LARPer: Feb 19, 2005; THE DARK SIDE OF SCIENCE BREEDS A WEAPON OF WAR; Buglord

BrotherJayne posted:

https://weaponsrelease.com I think

this site is great!

# ? Feb 4, 2021 07:51

Abongination: Aug 18, 2010; Life, it's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come.; Pillbug

1861: Virginia

Picking up from last time:

Confederate forces are caught offguard by a sudden union landing east of Richmond, as forces scramble to response the Union doomstack bypasses the hurried defenses at Richmond for reasons unknown and pushes south, closely pursued by the armies of the Shenadoan and Potomac, now numbering around 50,000 combined. A cav army being formed in South Carolina is desperately entrained north and thrown in the path of the rampaging Yankees.

The half formed cav army suffers badly on contact, Wharton's corp suffers 4000 casualties quickly as it withdraws before the host in a series of running battles, striking down few of the invaders in turn. They are pushed west and out of the effective battle for now. But they buy time, Major General Stanard and his 2,500 horse dismount and dig in on the railway leading up to Weldon Bridge.

It's at this point that I wonder why only the 1st Corp is engaging me and not the rest of the 100k men....and I realise. It's only a single corp and the armies HQ unit, the HQs just display the total men in the army, not the actual HQ unit! The other 60k men of this army are still struggling to get across to Richmond! I have almost 60,000 men now arranged around this 35k yankee corp!

Orders were quickly passed to the pursuing armies that enemy strength was far below expected, trumpets sounded as 50,000 grey clad soldiers charged into the defense of Weldon Bridge.

Casualties were almost even due to the punishment of the Cav corps but the Yankees break and begin taking heavy casualties on their long retreat north, I don't think these men will make it beyond the Virginian border.

However, In the north, close to 100,000 bluecoats suddenly begin pushing towards stripped defenses in an effort to rescue the beleaguered 1st Corp

As for the game, still enjoying it but it's quite far from finished. There is apparently a more in depth battle layer but this is my first major battle and every time I joined it would only give me access to the cav forces at the bridge and not the 50,000+ reinforcements. So I had to let the autoresolve figure it out.

The game also chugs way more then it should on my VR pc, even after dropping graphics.

145,000 vs 6....whoops

Abongination fucked around with this message at 09:20 on Feb 4, 2021

# ? Feb 4, 2021 09:13

Yooper: Apr 30, 2012

B-1.1.7 Bomber posted:

this site is great!

# ? Feb 4, 2021 13:16

Gort: Aug 18, 2003; Good day what ho cup of tea

Gewehr 43 posted:

Supplies: the gift that keeps on giving... by the ton.

My experience with WitP is that any aircraft level bombing ships north of 1000' altitude will never hit. Outside of the game low-alt skip bombing thing, I've never heard anyone accuse level bombing of being too accurate in WitP.

Can't remember which LP it was but there's definitely one on this site where the LPer was always complaining about B-17 "snipers"

# ? Feb 4, 2021 15:02

SerthVarnee: Mar 13, 2011; It has been ~~two~~ zero days since last incident.; Big Super Slapstick Hunk

Gort posted:

Can't remember which LP it was but there's definitely one on this site where the LPer was always complaining about B-17 "snipers"

Pretty sure that was Grey Hunter when he played the japanese.

# ? Feb 4, 2021 15:42

Flavius Aetass: Mar 30, 2011

Field of Glory 2: Medieval just came out.

# ? Feb 4, 2021 19:18

ZombieLenin: Sep 6, 2009; "Democracy for the insignificant minority, democracy for the rich--that is the democracy of capitalist society." VI Lenin

[/quote]

SerthVarnee posted:

Pretty sure that was Grey Hunter when he played the japanese.

Was his opponent skip bombing from 1000 feet with aircrews he specifically trained to do this? Because then maybe I could see this happening.

Literally the only time I use �skip bombing� b-17s or b-25 as the Allies is early war when the Japanese Kito Buti death ball is absolutely uncounterable by Allied naval aviation�and even the we are talking the first 6 or so months of the war.

Unless I have just been extremely unlucky, these non-skip trained aircrews still can�t hit a target smaller than Texas.

# ? Feb 4, 2021 19:36

Grey Hunter: Oct 17, 2007; Hero of the soviet union.
Accidental destroyer of planets

ZombieLenin posted:

Was his opponent skip bombing from 1000 feet with aircrews he specifically trained to do this? Because then maybe I could see this happening.

Literally the only time I use ‘skip bombing’ b-17s or b-25 as the Allies is early war when the Japanese Kito Buti death ball is absolutely uncounterable by Allied naval aviation—and even the we are talking the first 6 or so months of the war.

Unless I have just been extremely unlucky, these non-skip trained aircrews still can’t hit a target smaller than Texas.

It was the AI. They just seemed a hell of a lot more accurate in their hands, but I can't remember what height they came in at.

# ? Feb 4, 2021 20:31

Pharnakes: Aug 14, 2009

If operating with 70+ skill and all the extra factors like morale and good leaders are taken care of B17s can semi consistently hit underway targets with both low and normal altitude bombing.

By this I mean each B17 dropping 8 bombs might hit a ship maybe one sortie in three ish, which is far too much.

As the Allies this kind of damage is actually fairly ignoreable, but given the incendiary nature of Japanese ships a single 500lb hit is often enough to cause a 5,000+ ton ship to burn out.

# ? Feb 4, 2021 21:10

algebra testes: Mar 5, 2011; Lipstick Apathy

Abongination posted:

1861: Virginia

Picking up from last time:

Confederate forces are caught offguard by a sudden union landing east of Richmond, as forces scramble to response the Union doomstack bypasses the hurried defenses at Richmond for reasons unknown and pushes south, closely pursued by the armies of the Shenadoan and Potomac, now numbering around 50,000 combined. A cav army being formed in South Carolina is desperately entrained north and thrown in the path of the rampaging Yankees.

The half formed cav army suffers badly on contact, Wharton's corp suffers 4000 casualties quickly as it withdraws before the host in a series of running battles, striking down few of the invaders in turn. They are pushed west and out of the effective battle for now. But they buy time, Major General Stanard and his 2,500 horse dismount and dig in on the railway leading up to Weldon Bridge.

It's at this point that I wonder why only the 1st Corp is engaging me and not the rest of the 100k men....and I realise. It's only a single corp and the armies HQ unit, the HQs just display the total men in the army, not the actual HQ unit! The other 60k men of this army are still struggling to get across to Richmond! I have almost 60,000 men now arranged around this 35k yankee corp!

Orders were quickly passed to the pursuing armies that enemy strength was far below expected, trumpets sounded as 50,000 grey clad soldiers charged into the defense of Weldon Bridge.

Casualties were almost even due to the punishment of the Cav corps but the Yankees break and begin taking heavy casualties on their long retreat north, I don't think these men will make it beyond the Virginian border.

However, In the north, close to 100,000 bluecoats suddenly begin pushing towards stripped defenses in an effort to rescue the beleaguered 1st Corp

As for the game, still enjoying it but it's quite far from finished. There is apparently a more in depth battle layer but this is my first major battle and every time I joined it would only give me access to the cav forces at the bridge and not the 50,000+ reinforcements. So I had to let the autoresolve figure it out.

The game also chugs way more then it should on my VR pc, even after dropping graphics.

145,000 vs 6....whoops

I nearly pulled the trigger on this last night, interesting stuff.

# ? Feb 5, 2021 00:51

dublish: Oct 31, 2011

ZombieLenin posted:

Unless I have just been extremely unlucky, these non-skip trained aircrews still can�t hit a target smaller than Texas.

I don't see how that's an issue, Texas is smaller than many of the CLs in the game.

# ? Feb 5, 2021 01:03

blackmongoose: Mar 31, 2011; DARK INFERNO ROOK!

dublish posted:

I don't see how that's an issue, Texas is smaller than many of the CLs in the game.

It may have had a smaller length, but with the significantly broader beam I'm pretty sure it's still a larger target than all the CLs

# ? Feb 5, 2021 03:16

BrotherJayne: Nov 28, 2019

blackmongoose posted:

It may have had a smaller length, but with the significantly broader beam I'm pretty sure it's still a larger target than all the CLs

What if we moved the CL to Texas, would the size increase make it broader?

# ? Feb 5, 2021 06:10

Hannibal Rex: Feb 13, 2010

Any chance someone here was already playing wargames in the 90s and was a subscriber to SSG's Run 5 magazine? I'm trying to track down their old scenario disks to upload them to the Internet Archive.

# ? Feb 5, 2021 20:38

AARP LARPer: Feb 19, 2005; THE DARK SIDE OF SCIENCE BREEDS A WEAPON OF WAR; Buglord

Hannibal Rex posted:

Any chance someone here was already playing wargames in the 90s and was a subscriber to SSG's Run 5 magazine? I'm trying to track down their old scenario disks to upload them to the Internet Archive.

I think Noble Knight has some of them if you end up needing to buy them.

edit: link

https://www.nobleknight.com/Products/Run-5-Magazine

# ? Feb 6, 2021 01:58

mllaneza: Apr 28, 2007; Veteran, Bermuda Triangle Expeditionary Force, 1993-1952

Hannibal Rex posted:

Any chance someone here was already playing wargames in the 90s and was a subscriber to SSG's Run 5 magazine? I'm trying to track down their old scenario disks to upload them to the Internet Archive.

Post back if you get any uploaded ! SSG had some amazing games.

# ? Feb 6, 2021 02:16

Hannibal Rex: Feb 13, 2010

I don't think the magazines you can buy at Noble Knight come with the scenario disks, unfortunately. Besides that, SSG's Roger Keating has uploaded the entire run of the magazine as pdfs at his site, so getting those is no problem.

http://roger-keating.squarespace.com/run5-magazine

For pretty much all of their early games, you can input all the tables in the magazines into their scenario editors without the disks, but that's not possible for the later games.

I did find someone who supplied me with the scenarios from #16 - #19, and I've uploaded those to the Internet Archive already. Search for "Run 5 scenario disk" and you should find them. These mostly cover the Decisive Battles and Battlefront games.

Hannibal Rex fucked around with this message at 03:21 on Feb 6, 2021

# ? Feb 6, 2021 03:18

AARP LARPer: Feb 19, 2005; THE DARK SIDE OF SCIENCE BREEDS A WEAPON OF WAR; Buglord

I used my Slitherine anniversary code on ICBM.

I wasn't expecting much and wasn't disappointed, but if I'm playing a game centered around the use of nuclear weapons, I think it's a reasonable expectation that I'm gonna see some HUGE rear end EXPLOSIONS OH HELL YEAH and not fart.gif

verdict: play Defcon instead

# ? Feb 6, 2021 04:29

unicr0n: Sep 8, 2003

B-1.1.7 Bomber posted:

I used my Slitherine anniversary code on ICBM.

Are they having a sale? I�ve had my eyes on WITP for ages but only recently felt like I understood enough to actually play it, have been waiting for a moment when it�s not $100+ for me.

# ? Feb 6, 2021 04:40

AARP LARPer: Feb 19, 2005; THE DARK SIDE OF SCIENCE BREEDS A WEAPON OF WAR; Buglord

No, sorry. Slitherine/Matrix sends you a coupon code every year on your registration anniversary date. The discount goes up by a certain amount each year and you have to use it within 30 days. This year was my 6th anniversary and I think my code was for 21% off. I gave some thought to that new Field of Glory game, but will wait for a sale on that one.

The game I'm really looking forward to is the Campaign Legions: Vietnam one. I think Slitherine will be publishing (they're not developing).

# ? Feb 6, 2021 04:46

V for Vegas: Sep 1, 2004; THUNDERDOME LOSER

BrotherJayne posted:

https://weaponsrelease.com I think

Bookmarked! An excellent amount of Command and Command Ops content on this site.

# ? Feb 6, 2021 05:28

V for Vegas: Sep 1, 2004; THUNDERDOME LOSER

Flavius Aetass posted:

Field of Glory 2: Medieval just came out.

Being able to match up original armies from Field of Glory 2 with Medieval ones does sound kind of cool.

# ? Feb 6, 2021 05:37

Popete: Oct 6, 2009; This will make sure you don't suggest to the KDz
That he should grow greens instead of crushing on MCs; Grimey Drawer

War on the Sea looks like a bit of a mess at the moment with a poor UI and some weird design decisions and very OP enemy subs. But I can't stop watching game play videos of it cause it looks cool, really hope they can turn it around.

# ? Feb 6, 2021 20:22

Zaodai: May 23, 2009; Death before dishonor?
Your terms are accepted.

I don't know if it's groggy enough to qualify for this thread, since it's not economic and grand strategy in scale but I figure if Combat Mission and stuff counts it might interest some of you. This just recently went up on steam as a TBA and frankly looks pretty cool to me as tactical space combat stuff goes:

https://store.steampowered.com/app/887570/NEBULOUS_Fleet_Command/

# ? Feb 6, 2021 20:35

Kvlt!: May 19, 2012

Zaodai posted:

I don't know if it's groggy enough to qualify for this thread, since it's not economic and grand strategy in scale but I figure if Combat Mission and stuff counts it might interest some of you. This just recently went up on steam as a TBA and frankly looks pretty cool to me as tactical space combat stuff goes:

https://store.steampowered.com/app/887570/NEBULOUS_Fleet_Command/

This looks really cool, especially all the stuff they have about radar-jamming and intelligence wars within the battles. Def gonna be keeping an eye on this.

# ? Feb 6, 2021 20:41

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# ? Jun 10, 2024 20:46

Mr Luxury Yacht: Apr 16, 2012

Looks very Expanse-esque. I dig it.

# ? Feb 6, 2021 20:41

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