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lollontee posted:yeah actually im going to move to gaza tomorrow to "help out" bring some vaccines with you, contribute a lil
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Feb 4, 2021 00:53
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lollontee posted:yeah actually im going to move to gaza tomorrow to "help out" perepelki fucked around with this message at 00:58 on Feb 4, 2021 |
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Feb 4, 2021 00:56
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perepelki posted:there are organisations of crazy young people worldwide who go into war zones to "help out", and they usually rely on funding. palestine more than qualifies for disaster assistance from msf or the red cross, both of whom are run from wealthy countries. where are they? we live in a world where governments barely run anything anymore beyond military operations, it's all charities and ngos with the resources and the capacity to do this kind of work. Bombed or blocked by the Israeli army
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Feb 4, 2021 00:57
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perepelki posted:there are organisations of crazy young people worldwide who go into war zones to "help out", and they usually rely on funding. palestine more than qualifies for disaster assistance from msf or the red cross, both of whom are run from wealthy countries. where are they? we live in a world where governments barely run anything anymore beyond military operations, it's all charities and ngos with the resources and the capacity to do this kind of work. there are no such organizations
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Feb 4, 2021 00:59
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seriously lmao at the idea of somebody bringing up the red cross as a solution to a military occupation tho
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Feb 4, 2021 01:02
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lollontee posted:seriously lmao at the idea of somebody bringing up the red cross as a solution to a military occupation tho
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Feb 4, 2021 01:07
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perepelki posted:you know israel isn't an ai, right. the military is controlled by the leadership, the leadership can react to current conditions and respond differently than they have in the past. given the huge risk to their own safety posed by gaza being decimated by a rapidly-evolving plague, they would most likely agree to cooperate with non-hostile ngos offering to distribute vaccines to palestinians, and avoid blockading or bombing them for the duration of the pandemic, if such an offer were to be made. no, they would not. the leadership of israel would enjoy and publically cheer at the idea of palestinians dying from a plague while they cut off all travel
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Feb 4, 2021 01:09
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perepelki posted:you know israel isn't an ai, right. the military is controlled by the leadership, the leadership can react to current conditions and respond differently than they have in the past. given the huge risk to their own safety posed by gaza being decimated by a rapidly-evolving plague, they would most likely agree to cooperate with non-hostile ngos offering to distribute vaccines to palestinians, and avoid blockading or bombing them for the duration of the pandemic, if such an offer were to be made. those vaccines would be jabbed into israeli arms in six hours
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Feb 4, 2021 01:13
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i say swears online posted:those vaccines would be jabbed into israeli arms in six hours
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Feb 4, 2021 01:17
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Remember that this is D&D, so let's slow down the low-content sniping and instead drift in the general direction of more detailed and in-depth posts illustrating points in more detail. Also, just a pro tip - if you don't actually know the details of something and want to ask people why things aren't a certain way, consider not acting like you're a know-it-all about it.
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Feb 4, 2021 01:18
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Main Paineframe posted:Remember that this is D&D, so let's slow down the low-content sniping and instead drift in the general direction of more detailed and in-depth posts illustrating points in more detail. Also, just a pro tip - if you don't actually know the details of something and want to ask people why things aren't a certain way, consider not acting like you're a know-it-all about it. you're right, i do admit i don't know much about charity work in gaza. it's hard to restrain myself on this issue because right now i respect and love the israeli medical establishment more than anything else in the world. but at the same time, i agree that the plague has enabled medical genocide all over the world, and gaza is one of those places. so i will answer my own question, through research, rather than aggressively asking it in this thread, where it has already been answered and will only inflame things and before i post in future, i'll remind myself that everything i "know" about israel, i learnt only from israelis please forgive me, lollontee. please forgive me, thread. perepelki fucked around with this message at 01:51 on Feb 4, 2021 |
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Feb 4, 2021 01:32
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perepelki posted:there are organisations of crazy young people worldwide who go into war zones to "help out", and they usually rely on funding. palestine more than qualifies for disaster assistance from msf or the red cross, both of whom are run from wealthy countries. where are they? https://www.ifrc.org/en/what-we-do/where-we-work/middle-east-and-north-africa/palestine-red-crescent/ https://www.msf.org/palestine Both are active in the Occupied Palestinian Territories. Crazy as it sounds, medical aid doesn’t solve a decades long military occupation! lollontee posted:because they are being paid not to, and the source of those payments is starting to actually fall apart. Yes, there has been an ongoing conflict between Palestinian militant organisations and Israel for decades. And how many times has Israel been existentially threatened in that time? 0. A few Israelis die - sometimes soldiers, sometimes civilians, sometimes some random foreign guest worker - and it accomplishes nothing. It will continue certainly as oppressed people will always fight back especially when denied pacifist methods of opposition, but that doesn’t mean they will accomplish anything. Also you sound like you are writing metal gear fan fiction. In future weapon systems, Palestine is not going to outcompete Israel even if the devices used change. Palestine doesn’t control its own economy and has almost no industry. Israel is a technologically modern and fairly cutting edge state.
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Feb 4, 2021 01:34
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Israel just signed 'peace accords' (more like weapon deals, but w\e) with several neighboring arab states, most Sunni countries seem more concerned with Iran than they are with Israel and are willing to collaborate with the US and with Israel. Now, I am not a prophet that is good at predicting the future like some goons who know exactly what's going to happen 'in the next few decades', or like the very stable goon genius who borrowing from Hegelian dialectics tried to convince me that the occupation is untenable and will 'collapse under the weight of its own internal contradictions', but it seems to me like the prospects of Israel getting destroyed or its hand being forced on Palestinian statehood kind of became less likely this past decade. The occupation is doing just fine, probably better than ever, it sucks but that's the truth. emanresu tnuocca fucked around with this message at 05:31 on Feb 4, 2021 |
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Feb 4, 2021 05:25
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It’s doing so well that the idea of a Palestinian state is now essentially impossible because what is internationally recognized as Palestinian land is littered with Israeli settlements now, and more are coming.
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Feb 4, 2021 05:52
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Yeah it's pretty clear the only politically popular plan is to just keep displacing Palestinians until there are none left.
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Feb 4, 2021 06:45
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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I think that the plan, in as such as one exists, is a bit less ambitious than complete displacement, I think that people like Netanyahu largely know that Israel will never have the legitimacy to pull off another Nakba and that the Palestinian population is not going anywhere, as the ruling ideology in israel is securitarian zionism (aka ביטחוניסטים) their long term plan has basically two objectives, keep the palestinians declawed and ensure that demographics and territorial control are the such that eventually when palestinians are given full citizenship within israel (and from the securitarian perspective this event should be delayed for as long as possible) that they are very much in a minority position with as little influence and capital as possible. Olmert had some quotes about the inevitably of the Palestinian cause becoming a civil rights cause, Netanyahu himself in the past (way in the past, when he was 28) also said that his 'solution' also involves having the palestinians population given full israeli citizenship as long as 'never again', etc. That's my take.
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Feb 4, 2021 07:27
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Madkal posted:I think the issue with the fascist part is that it is conflating domestic and foreign into one thing. For instance, there is a free press inside Israel, and while there is absolutely racism in theory all Israeli citizens have rights though the rights granted are really backwards but there is no ban on a political party trying to achieve better rights for citizens (it's just that those parties very rarely get enough votes to make a difference). All Israeli citizens don't have the same rights though. "Citizen" in Israel is an inferior status to "national", a class reserved only for Jews. Israel is an apartheid state with or without the territories (which, due to hundreds of thousands of citizen-nationals residing there can't really be considered "foreign" anyway).
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Feb 4, 2021 09:28
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DarkCrawler posted:All Israeli citizens don't have the same rights though. "Citizen" in Israel is an inferior status to "national", a class reserved only for Jews. Israel is an apartheid state with or without the territories (which, due to hundreds of thousands of citizen-nationals residing there can't really be considered "foreign" anyway). The way that church and state are up each others' asses in Israel makes it a pretty interesting case of apartheid since it's got several levels it works on. Jewish Citizens have more rights than non-jewish citizens (or citizens that aren't regarded as jewish by the system like the russian immigrants, israeli arabs etc.), and even in that distinction, Israeli arabs are usually more discriminated against than other non-jewish citizens, but not as much by actual laws. Then you've got "guest workers" like other foreign nationals, and even here there's a pretty clear divide between "non-jew who moved to Israel to marry an Israeli", south east asian workers, and refugees from Africa. Then going down the totem pole some more you've got Palestinians who are not only shafted in basically every area, but even without the actual laws constraining them are regularly subjected to different treatment under the same laws as jews who live in the west bank (throwing rocks at soldiers gets you shot if you're palestinian but gets ignored if you're jewish, etc.)
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Feb 4, 2021 10:59
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Madkal posted:I'm kind of failing to see how Israel, a country that does democracy so well that they have elections every 8 months, is a fascist state but okay. What if the Israeli electorate is majority fascist? Edit: Or, if we want to be charitable, votes plurality fascist? Orange Devil fucked around with this message at 11:14 on Feb 4, 2021 |
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Feb 4, 2021 11:04
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I believe Israel is the country in the world with the highest percentage of their population vaccinated (I could be wrong), but they are certainly not going to include Palestinians in that, of course. https://twitter.com/AManInTheSun/status/1361774180627324933?s=20
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Feb 17, 2021 00:09
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With the next election four days away, how are things looking? A bit of looking at the news suggests stalemate and status quo, with some commentators already speculating on the dynamics of a potential fifth election. Once again, Netanyahu's bloc is forecast to be just a bit short of a majority, but the divided opposition is unlikely to be able to form a majority themselves, so the most common prediction seems to be another slim and fragile Netanyahu government. The biggest change from last election, of course, is the near-total collapse in Blue and White's support. Gantz's party, once a leading force in the opposition, is now expected to only barely meet the electoral threshold to hold any seats at all. Meanwhile, the Joint List has fractured, with one major faction leaving the party and going it alone as a "pragmatic" independent force. Which, in practice, just means they'd be willing to ally with Netanyahu and join his coalition. I have yet to find anyone who knows anything about Israeli politics and doesn't consider this a terrible idea, but it's not entirely out of left field - the Joint List has always been an uneasy alliance between groups who didn't have much in common ideologically, and were largely forced together by necessity to avoid dropping under the electoral threshold. Meanwhile, Netanyahu himself is actively courting Israeli Arab voters, reaching beyond his traditional base. No one seems to think this will be super successful, but it doesn't seem to be completely ineffective either. With the political stalemate Israel has been in, flipping even just a few thousand Arab votes could have a big impact. And just to make things really stupid, the Kahanists have found an opportunity to resurface. The Religious Zionist Party, a small party that's been bouncing around various far-right alliances for a while now, has left Yamina to partner with the Jewish Power party. I'm sure no one will be surprised what their political alignment is.
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Mar 19, 2021 23:38
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Main Paineframe posted:Meanwhile, Netanyahu himself is actively courting Israeli Arab voters, reaching beyond his traditional base. No one seems to think this will be super successful, but it doesn't seem to be completely ineffective either. With the political stalemate Israel has been in, flipping even just a few thousand Arab votes could have a big impact.
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Mar 20, 2021 01:30
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the party that left the joint list is a socially-conservative pro-islam party, so i don't think they'll be joining a netanyahu coalition. it leaves the joint list somewhat secular
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Mar 20, 2021 04:03
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FlamingLiberal posted:I believe Israel is the country in the world with the highest percentage of their population vaccinated (I could be wrong), but they are certainly not going to include Palestinians in that, of course. I wonder if simply including Palestinians in Israeli statistics would make any difference in perception since they're insisting on jurisdiction over Palestinians anyway. Israel would suddenly plummet down the charts for vaccination progress, income, life expectancy, and pretty much every other measure of what defines a successful developed state.
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Mar 20, 2021 10:06
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AreWeDrunkYet posted:I wonder if simply including Palestinians in Israeli statistics would make any difference in perception since they're insisting on jurisdiction over Palestinians anyway. Israel would suddenly plummet down the charts for vaccination progress, income, life expectancy, and pretty much every other measure of what defines a successful developed state. I mean it obviously would and the only reason it isn't already done is because of American influence, pretty much. The rest of the world is pretty tired of the MiLItArY OcCuPaTioN charade for the most part.
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Mar 20, 2021 10:20
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i say swears online posted:the party that left the joint list is a socially-conservative pro-islam party, so i don't think they'll be joining a netanyahu coalition. it leaves the joint list somewhat secular Which is all right by me, the Joint List voter.
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Mar 20, 2021 10:55
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Main Paineframe posted:
That is interesting. Is there any indication that there's a group of Israeli Arabs that might be motivated by "gently caress you, got mine" with regard to those in the occupied territories? Appealing specifically to the better off with a law and order message, or discouraging Muslim conservatives by pointing to left-wing social attitudes?
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Mar 20, 2021 18:02
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By popular demand posted:Which is all right by me, the Joint List voter. i think odeh's a pretty neat dude
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Mar 20, 2021 20:47
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Grammarchist posted:Is there any indication that there's a group of Israeli Arabs that might be motivated by "gently caress you, got mine" with regard to those in the occupied territories? Famously yes.
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Mar 20, 2021 21:00
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Here to point out that should these elections end indecisively and we go for another round come october Benny Ganz is supposed to become prime minister, Benny plays the longest game.
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Mar 21, 2021 15:34
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Grammarchist posted:That is interesting. Is there any indication that there's a group of Israeli Arabs that might be motivated by "gently caress you, got mine" with regard to those in the occupied territories? Appealing specifically to the better off with a law and order message, or discouraging Muslim conservatives by pointing to left-wing social attitudes? Some 9% of them are Arab Christians who probably don't see eye to eye with Palestinian Authority and especially Hamas.
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Mar 21, 2021 21:18
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Nenonen posted:Some 9% of them are Arab Christians who probably don't see eye to eye with Palestinian Authority and especially Hamas. Thanks, I'd forgotten about that and was never really well versed in the electoral demographics of these groups.
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Mar 21, 2021 22:27
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Nenonen posted:Some 9% of them are Arab Christians who probably don't see eye to eye with Palestinian Authority and especially Hamas. These Arab Christians also get treated like poo poo by Orthodox Jews that Likud enables, both for being Arab and also Christian. It really sucks to be either in Israel.
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Mar 21, 2021 22:35
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Fun fact: one of the posters that the ministry of tourism used reads: "ISRAEL No one belongs here more than you." If I Ever find myself in the position to somehow blackmail the entire world in order to start a nation I'm totally taking that slogan and welcoming every refugee ever.
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Mar 21, 2021 23:26
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Thom12255 posted:These Arab Christians also get treated like poo poo by Orthodox Jews that Likud enables, both for being Arab and also Christian. It really sucks to be either in Israel. Funnily enough I was hearing an Israeli tell another person how the Christian Arabs have it much better in Israel than anywhere else in the middle East just last week.
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Mar 22, 2021 00:13
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You often hear Israeli jews say they know what's best for the arabs, I guess it's the same as white americans saying they know what minorities really need.
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Mar 22, 2021 00:19
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emanresu tnuocca posted:Here to point out that should these elections end indecisively and we go for another round come october Benny Ganz is supposed to become prime minister, Benny plays the longest game. Well, I'd like to see ol' Bibi Netanyahu wriggle his way out of THIS jam! *Bibi easily wriggles his way out of the jam* Ah! Well, nevertheless,
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Mar 22, 2021 00:48
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I think also at one point Lieberman or someone was thinking of trading majority Arab areas for settlements or something like that in peace plan and Israeli Arabs were like "uh no" although that is less FYGM and "You can't just revoke citizenship randomly from groups you don't like and trade them in negotiations".
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Mar 22, 2021 06:07
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Also Palestine would still be an effective prison, you don't have to like Israel to not want to be part of what they were planning with Palestine there.
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Mar 22, 2021 07:05
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I know relatively little about domestic Israeli politics, primarily from reading this thread and the occasional bits that penetrate foreign media, but was Benny Gantz ever a serious political figure? The coalition with Netanyahu and agreement to let Bibi take the first crack at being PM was seen by every account I read as a suckers move. I'm just wondering if he was one of these guys who really was that desperate/naive but managed to wrangle an opposition coalition together out of being in the right place at the right time or if that was an uncharacteristic moment of insanity.
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Mar 22, 2021 13:13
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