[Anarchists] propaganda of the weeb

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Jellidelic: Nov 28, 2011

mila kunis posted:

https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateAnarchism/comments/lcvb4k/on_the_anarchist_response_to_the_global_pandemic/

r/DebateAnarchism

On the Anarchist Response to the Global Pandemic (just published on Montreal Counter-Info prior to Saturday's anti-curfew demonstration)

The Covid19 crisis has presented a challenge to anarchists and others who believe in a fully autonomous and liberated life. We write this today because we feel too many people who in better times carry these political and philosophical banners are setting aside their core beliefs � or worse � twisting and contorting those beliefs in wholly disappointing ways, conforming to the mandates of technocrats and politicians, and are convincing themselves that doing so is some grand act of solidarity with the most vulnerable people in our societies.

As anarchists, autonomy over one�s own mind and body are essential to our values. We believe that human beings are intelligent enough to decide for themselves how to assess their surroundings and to make determinations on how to go forth living in a way that meets their needs and desires. Of course, we recognize that this autonomy comes packaged with genuine responsibility not only to one�s self, but to those with whom they are in community � including the non-human world. We certainly recognize that individuals may be asked for their cooperation in achieving a collective goal. But we also recognize the fundamental importance of consent in such situations, and that force and punishment are antithetical to an anarchist worldview.

That is why we write today. To reach out to our friends, our comrades, our intellectual and philosophical allies to ask that if you haven�t yet, that you please begin to seriously critique and question the state responses to the Covid19 pandemic that we are witnessing around the world. We have watched over the proceeding year, meekly, quietly, as other anarchists have toed the lines drawn by state bureaucrats. We have remained silent when witnessing anarchists act with hostility towards those who have pushed back against state mandated curfews and lockdown orders,

I would argue that if there wasn't a capitalist impetus on gaslighting the world out of taking Covid seriously, then it wouldn't be such a problem to have people take measures to protect themselves and others autonomously

# ? Feb 5, 2021 19:23

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# ? Jun 1, 2024 16:10

The Oldest Man: Jul 28, 2003

lol that's loving childish, because the state says dont stab your neighbor are anarchists supposed to support serial stabbists?

# ? Feb 5, 2021 22:08

The Oldest Man: Jul 28, 2003

Christ i hate the white left

e: i literally forgot how rancid this discourse is because like a year ago i started unfollowing all white anarchists and replacing them with black and indigenous anarchist-tendency thinkers and this is like tasting rancid peanut butter that i was too lazy to throw out and then forgot it was rancid

The Oldest Man has issued a correction as of 22:15 on Feb 5, 2021

# ? Feb 5, 2021 22:08

Jeremiah Flintwick: Jan 14, 2010; King of Kings Ozysandwich am I. If any want to know how great I am and where I lie, let him outdo me in my work.

If you're not an anarchist by age 20 you have no heart, if you're not a communist by age 30 you have no brain.
:agesilaus:

# ? Feb 5, 2021 22:16

Crowsbeak: Oct 9, 2012; by Azathoth; Lipstick Apathy

Yes.

# ? Feb 5, 2021 23:02

Dreddout: Oct 1, 2015; You must stay drunk on writing so reality cannot destroy you.

Yossarian-22 posted:

Anarchists who are into aesthetics are crypto-liberals but also IWW was the closest thing the U.S. ever had to a genuinely revolutionary organization of workers, so I guess what I'm saying is anarchism is a land of contrasts

Besides the much bigger CPUSA, yeah

There's a reason the feds heavily infiltrated the CPUSA while the IWW was left to rot into its current state.

Their specific unionism tactics just aren't practical long term because they're more focused on attempting to conjure a general strike out of thin air rather than winning concessions for the working class.

Technically, the IWW rejects anarchism in their constitution but good luck getting wobblies to read their own theory

# ? Feb 6, 2021 01:20

Trash Ops: Jun 19, 2012; im having fun, isnt everyone else?

black bolshevik and hammer and hoe are good reads about how much very real effort was put in by communists

# ? Feb 6, 2021 01:47

ToxicAcne: May 25, 2014

Dreddout posted:

Besides the much bigger CPUSA, yeah

There's a reason the feds heavily infiltrated the CPUSA while the IWW was left to rot into its current state.

Their specific unionism tactics just aren't practical long term because they're more focused on attempting to conjure a general strike out of thin air rather than winning concessions for the working class.

Technically, the IWW rejects anarchism in their constitution but good luck getting wobblies to read their own theory

I think it's wrong to compare the IWW and the CPUSA. They represent different epochs of the left really. The IWW was most prominent in the era leading up to WW1, while the CPUSA was at it's height during the depression and WW2 (and also the immediate post war period).

Edit: It's also important to understand that in most cases, the rank and file of these organizations weren't too hung up on organizational differences. Many people who were part of Anarchist organizations jumped ship to M-L ones after 1917 because they figured that was their best chance to bring about socialism.

# ? Feb 6, 2021 02:26

Jellidelic: Nov 28, 2011

The Oldest Man posted:

lol that's loving childish, because the state says dont stab your neighbor are anarchists supposed to support serial stabbists?

thats not what i said at all?
my point was that there is a problem with anti-masking because capital has benefitted from allowing the sentiment to foment and to some degree can be assumed to have actively perpetuated it. this has left the state forced to find a position of enforcing the issue to at least maintain the optics of caring about its population.

no capital progaganda machine creating anti-social movements, no need for a reactionary state using violence against people for "their own good"

also i looked up that post and OP deleted it because most commentors explained to
him that in anarchy its very unlikely a community would allow members people to knowingly carry out harmful behavior.

# ? Feb 6, 2021 03:57

TheSlutPit: Dec 26, 2009

anarchists are just angry liberals, taking their facile understanding of individual autonomy to its absurd conclusion. now hold on a sec while I read this thread.

# ? Feb 6, 2021 06:57

F Stop Fitzgerald: Dec 12, 2010

TheSlutPit posted:

anarchists are just angry liberals, taking their facile understanding of individual autonomy to its absurd conclusion. now hold on a sec while I read this thread.

they are libertarians

# ? Feb 6, 2021 07:32

Cerebral Bore: Apr 21, 2010; Fun Shoe

Jellidelic posted:

thats not what i said at all?
my point was that there is a problem with anti-masking because capital has benefitted from allowing the sentiment to foment and to some degree can be assumed to have actively perpetuated it. this has left the state forced to find a position of enforcing the issue to at least maintain the optics of caring about its population.

no capital progaganda machine creating anti-social movements, no need for a reactionary state using violence against people for "their own good"

also i looked up that post and OP deleted it because most commentors explained to
him that in anarchy its very unlikely a community would allow members people to knowingly carry out harmful behavior.

it's kinda funny how you've been reduced to arguing that the obvious holes in your ideology aren't actually problems because in your ideal society it all would just magically work out

# ? Feb 6, 2021 07:52

miniscule12: Jan 8, 2020; HAHA YEAH HE PEED IN HIS OWN MOUTH I'M GONNA KEEP BRINGING IT UP.

anarchists are weak pussys, except for that time they killed people that was extreme villainy.

# ? Feb 6, 2021 07:53

Finicums Wake: Mar 13, 2017; Can't post for 8 years!

the vast majority of anarchists aren't liberals in any sense of the word. it's true that anarchist thought stands in some relation of continuity with liberal enlightenment political theory, but it seems like all radical and emancipatory political theory does, at least to some extent. i disagree with anarchists and think a lot of anarchism is dumb, but calling them children is dumb as well. there are some anarchists, or anarchist-leaning marxists, that i've found to be well worth engaging with. also, how can you dismiss someone like this guy?

Lucio Urtubia posted:

Lucio Urtubia was born in Cascante, the fifth child in a very poor family. His father, a Carlist was imprisoned and, while in jail, experienced a conversion to Socialism.

Recruited for military service, Urtubia and his companions ransacked a warehouse belonging to their company and deserted, fleeing to France in 1954. In Paris he began to work as a bricklayer, an occupation he continued with throughout his life. Additionally, he became involved with the Young Anarchists of the F�d�ration Anarchiste and befriended Andr� Breton and Albert Camus.

Soon after moving to Paris, Urtubia was asked to hide a member of the Maquis, Spanish guerrillas who opposed Franco from exile, in his house. The refugee turned out to be the fabled Francesc Sabat� Llopart. Sabat� stayed on with Urtubia for several years, until his death.

Sabat� guided families and anarchists exiled in Toulouse, Perpignan, and Paris and members of the old Spanish CNT in Barcelona, Saragossa, Madrid and Pamplona. Before the imprisonment of Sabat� halted these activities, Urtubia began to emulate his incursions into Spanish territory. Later he undertook a series of robberies and holdups to obtain funds for the revolutionary cause. Accompanied by his inseparable Thompson machine gun which he inherited after Sabat�'s death.

By this time, Urtubia's falsification of documents had begun and no guerrilla or exile left him without false papers. He united with other anarchist companions to forge currency in the 1960s. With this strategy they financed numerous groups while attempting to destabilize the capitalist economy. With these activities, in the heat of the Bay of Pigs Invasion, Urtubia proposed to Sime�n Rose, the ambassador of Cuba in France, to destroy American interests in France using explosives. This offer was refused, nevertheless. He then presented Ernesto Che Guevara, the Cuban Minister of Industries and President of the Central Bank of Cuba, with a plan for the massive forgery of American dollars. This proposal was likewise rejected and Urtubia left the meeting disillusioned.

The masterful blow that changed his life was the forgery of Citibank travellers' checks in 1977. This criminal undertaking included 8,000 copies of 25 checks worth 100 dollars each and damaged the bank so severely that its stock price fell. The stolen money was used, as always, in the aid of guerrilla movements in Latin America (Tupamaros, Montoneros, etc.) and Europe. In spite of the audacity of the forgery, Urtubia was only sentenced to 6 months in jail thanks to an extrajudicial agreement with Citibank, which dropped the charges in exchange for Urtubia's printing plates.

Urtubia's life was a continuous adventure. He was targeted by five international orders, including the CIA; he prepared the kidnapping of the Nazi Klaus Barbie in Bolivia; collaborated in the flight of the leader of the Black Panthers; interceded in the kidnapping of Javier Rup�rez; mediated in the case of Albert Boadella; and worked with the Movimiento Ib�rico de Liberaci�n and later with the Groupes d'action r�volutionnaire internationalistes. Urtubia continued to live in Paris until his death.

Urtubia died on July 18, 2020, aged 89.[3]

# ? Feb 6, 2021 08:39

Mercrom: Jul 17, 2009

anarchists are liberals who believe there is a better decentralized power structure than capitalism. i hope they find it

# ? Feb 6, 2021 13:30

platzapS: Aug 4, 2007

1. early chapters of Kropotkin's Conquest of Bread were good at explaining why the wealth of the few requires the poverty of the many

A. I don't understand why the administration of the CNT-FAI in Catalonia wasn't a dictatorship of the proletariat (which i would approve of)

I. How would an anarchist world deal with climate change? Even without capitalism there would be a strong incentive to use fossil fuels to cheaply make more dildos and bongs or whatever by any given sub-unit.

~primitivism kicks rear end and was the "correct line" before the 19th century with morphine, vulcanized rubber condoms, and Karl J. Marx

# ? Feb 6, 2021 13:43

platzapS: Aug 4, 2007

platzapS has issued a correction as of 14:15 on Feb 6, 2021

# ? Feb 6, 2021 13:46

platzapS: Aug 4, 2007

im joking about glory of karl j. marx, he'd be the first to say that if he died in infancy something like marxism would emerge just like if newton had jacked off too hard to the bible and died, hooke and liebniz and boyle would have come up with the same poo poo within a couple decades

# ? Feb 6, 2021 13:50

Jellidelic: Nov 28, 2011

Cerebral Bore posted:

it's kinda funny how you've been reduced to arguing that the obvious holes in your ideology aren't actually problems because in your ideal society it all would just magically work out

the answer to most scrutiny of left anarchy is that the problem is a result of capitalism in the first place.

for example, questions like: how would anarchy deal with trash without a rank and file state sanitation apparatus?
simply put most waste is a function of the profit motive - in the form of disposable packaging, and products with planned obsolescence. Past that point you have to get into completely rethinking what "trash" actually means and why the concept of being able to magically delete pstuff from reality has been instilled.

also it seems like a lot of people itt assume anarchists are hippies. like they wouldnt have any rules or conflict resolution. or use violence to protect themselves and their community, even from dangerous members within

# ? Feb 6, 2021 15:53

Badactura: Feb 14, 2019; My wish lives in the future.

You don't actually solve the problem of sanitation by saying most trash is created by capitalism though because a significant amount isn't and you still need a system to deal with it

# ? Feb 6, 2021 16:03

Jellidelic: Nov 28, 2011

Badactura posted:

You don't actually solve the problem of sanitation by saying most trash is created by capitalism though because a significant amount isn't and you still need a system to deal with it

the concept of "trash" as this way to remove objects from existence is the problem. as much as we've been programmed to lose object permanence when we throw something into the "deleting hole," thats not what happens. and any amount of trash is inevitably unsustainable.

you have apply the concept of horizontalism to beyond just your fellow human. extending it to your entire environment and ecosystem. making something into "trash" doesnt mean it goes away. you dont change any properties of the object except your own perception of it.
the idea that trash can be created and put into the trash zone is a form of exerting dominance over the world itself.

anything you would consider to be trash can probably be argued against. either that it shouldnt exist in the first place, or it can somehow be reappropriated, never considered as trash in the first place. electronic waste or things that are other toxic dont necessarily fit in to this mindset. you would need a delegation to deal with this, but it would be on a drastically more manageable scale and wouldnt need a state apparatus to organize its handling. the motivation to have it dealt with would come from an interest in protecting the community, and contributing to its well-being. as opposed to laborers coerced (by job scarcity and fear of starvation) into managing insane amounts of filth generated by a society recklessly creating it.

# ? Feb 6, 2021 17:09

Buck Wildman: Mar 30, 2010; I am Metango, Galactic Governor

Jellidelic posted:

also it seems like a lot of people itt assume anarchists are hippies. like they wouldnt have any rules or conflict resolution. or use violence to protect themselves and their community, even from dangerous members within

F Stop Fitzgerald posted:

they are libertarians

# ? Feb 6, 2021 17:14

big dong wanter: Jan 28, 2010; The future for this country is roads, freeways and highways

To the dangerzone

imagine not upholding democratic centralism, lmao just lmao

# ? Feb 6, 2021 17:27

PawParole: Nov 16, 2019

Trash Ops posted:

black bolshevik and hammer and hoe are good reads about how much very real effort was put in by communists

lol that the CPUSA hosed up decades of outreach to afro-Americans by proposing a separate black ethnostate.

# ? Feb 6, 2021 17:34

Pentecoastal Elites: Feb 27, 2007

anarchism is interesting philosophically but practically I think its deeply unserious because it totally lacks any sort of realistic ability to challenge power, and specifically now capitalism. Whenever I talk to anarchists about this I get some variation of "well we'll just do mutual aid and dual power, and then everyone will join us and abandon the state!", which I think everyone -- even the anarchists that tell me this -- know is totally unfeasible and doesn't actually present any sort of way forward or constitute an actual relationship to power beyond arraying itself in opposition to. Communism, via socialism, has an actual plan there.

I had a lot of thoughts about anarchist communities that actually exist in the world but this is exactly my sentiment and worded much better that I could have:

mawarannahr posted:

communists want to change the world. surviving it isn't a political achievement.

# ? Feb 6, 2021 17:39

bvj191jgl7bBsqF5m: Apr 16, 2017; IÍÌÌ° ÍÌ¯ÌÌ«Ì¹Ì¯Ì¤AÒmÍÌºÌ© ÍÌ¬AÌ¡Ì®ÌÌ ÍÍÌ±Ì« KÌ¶eÍgÍ.ÌÌ»Ì±ÌªÍÌ¹Ì

Anarchy has the coolest symbol of any socioeconomic ideology. And heck, nation states are bad, too, so they have a point!

# ? Feb 6, 2021 17:40

bvj191jgl7bBsqF5m: Apr 16, 2017; IÍÌÌ° ÍÌ¯ÌÌ«Ì¹Ì¯Ì¤AÒmÍÌºÌ© ÍÌ¬AÌ¡Ì®ÌÌ ÍÍÌ±Ì« KÌ¶eÍgÍ.ÌÌ»Ì±ÌªÍÌ¹Ì

As far as political ideologies go that will never happen in my lifetime or any lifetime in the west, there is a spectrum of cool to uncool, with anarchists on the cool side and trots on the uncool side

# ? Feb 6, 2021 17:43

indigi: Jul 20, 2004; ^{how can we not talk about family

when family's all that we got?}

Trash Ops posted:

anarchists mean well but uh, lol

as an anarchist this is the correct opinion

e: case in point

Jellidelic posted:

the concept of "trash" as this way to remove objects from existence is the problem.

anything you would consider to be trash can probably be argued against.

# ? Feb 6, 2021 17:58

Dreddout: Oct 1, 2015; You must stay drunk on writing so reality cannot destroy you.

Jellidelic posted:

the answer to most scrutiny of left anarchy is that the problem is a result of capitalism in the first place.

The primary problem with anarchy is that nature abhors a vacuum. Which is why states went from being the exception to the rule circa 5000 bc to isolating statelessness to the fringes of the Amazon and Indonesian jungles

To put it another way if your ideology can not successfully abolish capitalism then it's the political equivalent of administering lsd to a person with cancer.

The lsd might make them feel better but it won't stop them from dying, only chemotherapy (socialism) can possibly save them. Chemo might hurt but it also is capable of killing the cancer which the fantasia of acid can not do.

For similar reasons this is why anarchisms popularity peaked in the early 20th century before being marginalized by the success of the bolshevik revolution. Most people will choose the alternative that offers the strongest possibility of liberation.

# ? Feb 6, 2021 18:05

Ferrinus: Jun 19, 2003; i'm finding this quite easy, i guess in part because i'm a fast type but also because i have a coherent mental model of the world

PawParole posted:

lol that the CPUSA hosed up decades of outreach to afro-Americans by proposing a separate black ethnostate.

in fact wasn't it specifically by backing off the black belt thesis, affirming that black people could simply count on full integration and legal rights through reform, and moderating their stance to appeal better to whites that the CPUSA hosed up decades of outreach to afro-americans? they were very strong in the 30s when the theory of black people as an oppressed nation within a nation was their official stance

# ? Feb 6, 2021 18:38

skewetoo: Mar 30, 2003

I think we should keep trying with states. They're as inalienable as monarchies

# ? Feb 6, 2021 19:13

platzapS: Aug 4, 2007

skewetoo posted:

I think we should keep trying with states. They're as inalienable as monarchies

love states. uruk, tawantinsuyu, the two sicilies. cant get enough of them

# ? Feb 6, 2021 21:25

uncop: Oct 23, 2010

mila kunis posted:

https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateAnarchism/comments/lcvb4k/on_the_anarchist_response_to_the_global_pandemic/

r/DebateAnarchism

On the Anarchist Response to the Global Pandemic (just published on Montreal Counter-Info prior to Saturday's anti-curfew demonstration)

The Covid19 crisis has presented a challenge to anarchists and others who believe in a fully autonomous and liberated life. We write this today because we feel too many people who in better times carry these political and philosophical banners are setting aside their core beliefs � or worse � twisting and contorting those beliefs in wholly disappointing ways, conforming to the mandates of technocrats and politicians, and are convincing themselves that doing so is some grand act of solidarity with the most vulnerable people in our societies.

As anarchists, autonomy over one�s own mind and body are essential to our values. We believe that human beings are intelligent enough to decide for themselves how to assess their surroundings and to make determinations on how to go forth living in a way that meets their needs and desires. Of course, we recognize that this autonomy comes packaged with genuine responsibility not only to one�s self, but to those with whom they are in community � including the non-human world. We certainly recognize that individuals may be asked for their cooperation in achieving a collective goal. But we also recognize the fundamental importance of consent in such situations, and that force and punishment are antithetical to an anarchist worldview.

That is why we write today. To reach out to our friends, our comrades, our intellectual and philosophical allies to ask that if you haven�t yet, that you please begin to seriously critique and question the state responses to the Covid19 pandemic that we are witnessing around the world. We have watched over the proceeding year, meekly, quietly, as other anarchists have toed the lines drawn by state bureaucrats. We have remained silent when witnessing anarchists act with hostility towards those who have pushed back against state mandated curfews and lockdown orders,

The sentiment is not bad at all IMO, it's just a shallow analysis. People left of socdems who support state-mandated limitations on freedom of assembly, freedom of movement etc. are misguided, there is no other way to put it. It doesn't matter how many lives such measures might save, the cost of legitimizing such powers for the state is still too high. Even when a bourgeois technocracy technically isn't wrong, it implements things in the most opportunistic and self-serving way possible.

Ways covid could have been fought but wasn't: giving unions emergency powers to overrule corporate decisions in the name of public safety, incentivizing people to stay home through positive rewards and help and ban on firings, providing public gatherings with well ventilated spaces and high quality masks, letting people squat in empty buildings for social distancing purposes etc.

Anarchists have a good baseline to be right about things on intuition, because there's no reason to ever support accumulation of state power in pretty much any existing country. Leftism that appreciates shows of power to push through emergency legislation and lock things down suffers from serious ideological socdem rot.

uncop has issued a correction as of 22:56 on Feb 6, 2021

# ? Feb 6, 2021 22:53

indigi: Jul 20, 2004; ^{how can we not talk about family

when family's all that we got?}

uncop posted:

The sentiment is not bad at all IMO, it's just a shallow analysis. People left of socdems who support state-mandated limitations on freedom of assembly, freedom of movement etc. are misguided, there is no other way to put it. It doesn't matter how many lives such measures might save, the cost of legitimizing such powers for the state is still too high.

I�m thinking about this principle in terms of the USSR�s mobilization to fight the Nazis and it does not compute

uncop posted:

Leftism that appreciates shows of power to push through emergency legislation and lock things down suffers from serious ideological socdem rot.

I�m fine with a judicious application of ideological socdem rot if it prevents disease induced megadeath tbh

# ? Feb 6, 2021 23:12

Ferrinus: Jun 19, 2003; i'm finding this quite easy, i guess in part because i'm a fast type but also because i have a coherent mental model of the world

i think the words "pretty much any existing country" are the key to that post. it's the same reason that it's not really a good idea long-term to call for the arrests of capitol rioters

# ? Feb 6, 2021 23:39

indigi: Jul 20, 2004; ^{how can we not talk about family

when family's all that we got?}

Ferrinus posted:

it's the same reason that it's not really a good idea long-term to call for the arrests of capitol rioters

oh I definitely agree with this.

# ? Feb 6, 2021 23:43

Dongicus: Jun 12, 2015

I don't think any of this is worth thinking about because the only ideology that seems to matter to real people is 'democrat' or ' republican, op

# ? Feb 6, 2021 23:46

platzapS: Aug 4, 2007

Ferrinus posted:

i think the words "pretty much any existing country" are the key to that post. it's the same reason that it's not really a good idea long-term to call for the arrests of capitol rioters

cuba seems alright, they have a lot less dying in hurricanes than florida

# ? Feb 6, 2021 23:51

Ferrinus: Jun 19, 2003; i'm finding this quite easy, i guess in part because i'm a fast type but also because i have a coherent mental model of the world

platzapS posted:

cuba seems alright, they have a lot less dying in hurricanes than florida

hell i support whatever coercive measures china, vietnam, etc. took, too. that said here in the states i would never call for the government to crack down on private gatherings but instead call for the government to pay people to stay home, for what little good that would do (what little good the call would do, i mean. obviously if the government did it that would be great, it's just, the government won't ever do it for any reason)

Ferrinus has issued a correction as of 00:09 on Feb 7, 2021

# ? Feb 7, 2021 00:05

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# ? Jun 1, 2024 16:10

Pomeroy: Apr 20, 2020

PawParole posted:

lol that the CPUSA hosed up decades of outreach to afro-Americans by proposing a separate black ethnostate.

Did you get this from the ghost of Lovestone, or is this the vaunted "anarchist intuition" with its "good baseline to be right about things" ?

Pomeroy has issued a correction as of 04:06 on Feb 8, 2021

# ? Feb 7, 2021 01:26

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > [Anarchists] propaganda of the weeb

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