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Caros posted:Just to be clear, what are the other sex pest accusations? Or are we talking the creepy grandpa poo poo? "Creepy grandpa poo poo" was ignoring girls' and women's physical autonomy and boundaries--while Biden was on camera and in a position of power (physically & figuratively) over them. It's also the most common first stage of predator grooming. Telling young girls to not date until they're 30? That's creepy grandpa poo poo. Mauling them while pinning their bodies against him? That's assault. I get for-real nauseous when I watch videos of those "creepy grandpa" moments from Biden, bc it brings me back to the time in which I grew up, back when adults dismissed "creepy grandpas" by telling us they're harmless, they don't know what they're doing, don't make a fuss, it makes him happy to "show affection" to you. Watching a sitting u.s. senator like Chris Coons shucking & jiving while his daughter exhibits obvious physical discomfort (wincing, pulling away from Biden) at being accosted by the vice president of the united states is repulsive beyond description; it's a testament to the hypocrisy of those who demand we believe women, except when it's politically unpalatable to do so.
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Feb 8, 2021 22:31
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Also: The fact that the DNC keeps inviting Bill Clinton to various events is also gross and shouldn't be tolerated.
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Feb 8, 2021 22:38
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Ytlaya posted:It's kind of funny that you guys talk about how posters shouldn't assume others are acting in bad faith, when this reasoning is basically 100% dependent upon a completely baseless belief that other people don't actually care about something. It's an almost comical level of hypocrisy. You're literally just accusing other people of virtue signalling. The bolded part is of course not even remotely true. A ton of people who believe Reade and call Biden a rapist at every opportunity also vehemently deny that Assange is a rapist, for example, and some of them even further debase themselves by subscribing to various conspiracy theories about how his accusers were CIA plants. I won't helldump, but this is trivially easy to prove. It is something that even the OP of the previous iteration of the thread initially stated in his own thread when asked about it. So yeah, it is not hypocrisy or bad faith to suggest that there are in fact some people who are weaponizing Reade to attack their political opponents.
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Feb 8, 2021 22:41
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I get pretty upset when people imply that being upset about Bidens treatment of women is "weaponizing" sexual assault. I get really upset when people imply that those of us who are upset about it are all using it as some sort of cudgel against a political enemy. It's not. Me and everyone that I know that bring this up? It is genuine. I genuinely get nauseated when I think about him in power. I genuinely am worried about the women around him. I am genuinely sickened by his behavior. There's been a habit of some people to imply that this is not genuine and I wish it would stop. edit: On the record - I think Assange should absolutely be tried for his sexual crimes. I absolutely do not think that should be mixed up with his status with the US and work to expose corruption with in the government. I wish Sweden would have actually taken his sex crimes seriously. silicone thrills fucked around with this message at 22:47 on Feb 8, 2021 |
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Feb 8, 2021 22:43
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DoomTrainPhD posted:Also: Yeah, it's hard to buy the idea that we all had to hold our nose and vote for Biden despite the allegations just this once, just to get rid of Trump when one of the most well documented scumbags on the planet is still a face of the party.
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Feb 8, 2021 22:45
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silicone thrills posted:I get pretty upset when people imply that being upset about Bidens treatment of women is "weaponizing" sexual assault. People are not talking about you, or people like you in those cases though - they are talking about the very specific people who rather obviously disbelieve accusations against someone on "their" team, the ones Slow News Day posted about. Sometimes you are going to have allies that are horrid shitheads, and this is true of every single thing in existence. Pointing them out is not an attack on you.
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Feb 8, 2021 22:48
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SpiritOfLenin posted:People are not talking about you, or people like you in those cases though - they are talking about the very specific people who rather obviously disbelieve accusations against someone on "their" team, the ones Slow News Day posted about. Sometimes you are going to have allies that are horrid shitheads, and this is true of every single thing in existence. Pointing them out is not an attack on you. It's not just me. or a few people. I've seen almost every attempt to bring this up called out as weaponizing it. The discussion was shut down constantly especially during the primary. edit: I'm very happy about the this thread and im glad it got made because its about time we have an real even discussion about this with out mods shutting it down immediately. Im sad we didnt have this during the primary when it could have made a real difference instead of constantly being shut down.
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Feb 8, 2021 22:49
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SpiritOfLenin posted:People are not talking about you, or people like you in those cases though - they are talking about the very specific people who rather obviously disbelieve accusations against someone on "their" team, the ones Slow News Day posted about. Sometimes you are going to have allies that are horrid shitheads, and this is true of every single thing in existence. Pointing them out is not an attack on you. If they aren't posting in this thread/forum, then why bring it up? It doesn't seem very relevant and feels like an attempt to deflect from an uncomfortable topic. And if they are posting in this thread/forum, why haven't they been specifically called out?
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Feb 8, 2021 22:51
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gently caress
Blue Footed Booby fucked around with this message at 22:57 on Feb 8, 2021 |
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Feb 8, 2021 22:54
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Son of Thunderbeast posted:If they aren't posting in this thread/forum, then why bring it up? It doesn't seem very relevant and feels like an attempt to deflect from an uncomfortable topic. And if they are posting in this thread/forum, why haven't they been specifically called out? A large part of the forum is screaming into the void about things that bug you. It's tough to tell when someone's doing that versus low key calling someone out without actually hitting the quote button. In general, I wish anyone in this thread who's responding to a particular poster would quote that poster. silicone thrills posted:Im sad we didnt have this during the primary when it could have made a real difference instead of constantly being shut down. Difference to what? This isn't a sarcastic question. Do you mean to discussion? The state of the forums? The country? Blue Footed Booby fucked around with this message at 22:59 on Feb 8, 2021 |
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Feb 8, 2021 22:57
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SpiritOfLenin posted:People are not talking about you, or people like you in those cases though - they are talking about the very specific people who rather obviously disbelieve accusations against someone on "their" team, the ones Slow News Day posted about. Sometimes you are going to have allies that are horrid shitheads, and this is true of every single thing in existence. Pointing them out is not an attack on you. Some people aren't talking about silicone thrills or people like silicone thrills, sure. Some people 100% are talking about silicone thrills or people like silicone thrills though.
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Feb 8, 2021 22:59
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DoomTrainPhD posted:Also: Yeah, I don't know how many more events he's going to be doing going forward once the pandemic dies down (again, IF it dies down), but if he does, that's probably something worth protesting loudly and visibly. He should not be welcomed anywhere as far as I'm concerned.
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Feb 8, 2021 22:59
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Blue Footed Booby posted:
Mostly how I felt towards the whole of D&D during that time. I felt like the entirety of D&D was laughing and making GBS threads on sexual violence victims and given I came from being a D&D poster not long before that, it made me fairly bitter towards the whole subforum and it made me lose alot of faith in politics in general. It kicked me into depression pretty hard which is like. yeah I know im broke brained for spending so much time on a forum but that's just me. I had really bad clinical depression and had it treated and am much better now. I really don't think folks get how personal it is to watch someone like Reade get thrown under the bus. There was a whole period where people were like "I dont believe her because she doesn't remember what day it was! Or if it was on the stairs or an alcove" and for me that was personal - I had blocked out most of my sexual assault. I literally had to google the event I was at to remember what the month and week was of it. silicone thrills fucked around with this message at 23:07 on Feb 8, 2021 |
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Feb 8, 2021 23:03
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Touching down briefly in this thread just to say a couple things. It would be nice to see more of an emphasis going forward about practical ways to hold local and national political parties accountable for sexism/sexual harassment/sexual assault alongside criticisms of how the DNC/local Dem parties specifically hosed up with regard to Tara Reade's accusations. Simply having a thread for people to stew in their righteous anger about things which have already happened and can't be undone is largely unproductive and it would be nice for this thread to be something more useful than a place to air grievances against other posters' feelings on the matter. Essentially once Biden clinched the Democratic nomination, I was personally at a loss for how to proceed, because third parties are a complete joke in the United States and the other choice was serial rapist and abuser whose victims are number solidly in the double digits and who openly admitted to sexual assault while being recorded (which didn't even turn out to be a speed bump for him getting elected in 2016). Not to mention his bragging to some radio jock about walking into the dressing rooms of teen girls while they were at various stages of undressed. 2020 offered no moral choices electorally speaking but that doesn't mean we are doomed to failure going forward. What is to be done and how do we affect change in a meaningful way? I also would appreciate the OP going back and taking a little more time to iron out the OP with some relevant source materials for people to read about the allegations, and I would encourage them to maybe link some resources for survivors of sexual assault or ways for other posters to support survivors of sexual assault, like RAINN.
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Feb 8, 2021 23:06
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silicone thrills posted:Mostly how I felt towards the whole of D&D during that time. I felt like the entirety of D&D was laughing and making GBS threads on sexual violence victims and given I came from being a D&D poster not long before that, it made me fairly bitter towards the whole subforum and it made me lose alot of faith in politics in general. It kicked me into depression pretty hard which is like. yeah I know im broke brained for spending so much time on a forum but that's just me. I had really bad clinical depression and had it treated and am much better now. I'm sorry to hear all of that; I can only imagine how hurtful it must be to have been gaslit like that, and then see it happening to someone else in such a highly-publicized way.  But thank you for being incredibly earnest and transparent with your feelings. I have high hopes for this thread, but I think it has the best chance of being productive if people are honest about why this topic matters as much to them as it does. That doesn't mean everybody needs to share their own trauma, particularly if they aren't ready to do so, of course. But it does mean that we're going to be respectful of people's experiences here. It's hard to make a safe space in a thread dedicated to discussing such a fraught topic, but I want it to be as safe a space as it possibly can be. Doctor Nutt's post has some very, very good guidelines toward that end, imo.
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Feb 9, 2021 00:02
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Thanks! Like I said, this thread is good and i'm glad it was made. I think one way people can do a better job going forward is to not automatically try to discredit the source. I believe it was last week there was some new info and the automatic response was to discredit the that it had also been hosted on RT along with many other outlets and that sort of knee jerk reaction really needs to go. That goes for any sexual assault victim. It all needs to be treated and taken seriously and pushed for having a real investigation. I am not sure how we can fix the DNC going forward. Obviously what all happened was unacceptable.
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Feb 9, 2021 00:13
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Slow News Day posted:The bolded part is of course not even remotely true. A ton of people who believe Reade and call Biden a rapist at every opportunity also vehemently deny that Assange is a rapist, for example, and some of them even further debase themselves by subscribing to various conspiracy theories about how his accusers were CIA plants. I won't helldump, but this is trivially easy to prove. It is something that even the OP of the previous iteration of the thread initially stated in his own thread when asked about it. Some of them have even decided to use her as a weapon against the idea that rape victims should be taken seriously.
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Feb 9, 2021 00:17
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silicone thrills posted:Thanks! Like I said, this thread is good and i'm glad it was made. It's a pretty secondary topic in this thread at the moment, but the DNC is substantial-majority an elected body and is shockingly vulnerable in many / most? states. Even without an organized campaign specifically against incumbents involved in 2020 primary operations, they can be knocked over. we would have done it in the Texas caucus I was most involved in boring internal politics of; turns out the DNC incumbent was already Actually Good lol so she stayed Goatse James Bond fucked around with this message at 00:41 on Feb 9, 2021 |
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Feb 9, 2021 00:34
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Slow News Day posted:The bolded part is of course not even remotely true. A ton of people who believe Reade and call Biden a rapist at every opportunity also vehemently deny that Assange is a rapist, for example, and some of them even further debase themselves by subscribing to various conspiracy theories about how his accusers were CIA plants. I won't helldump, but this is trivially easy to prove. It is something that even the OP of the previous iteration of the thread initially stated in his own thread when asked about it. That's straight-up a lie on several fronts. A, the post you're referring to was in a different thread, some kind of feedback thread or the like, not my thread, B, I never "vehemently" denied anything from the outset, I just stated I didn't know and was under the impression that the women had dropped the case, and C, when some D&D regulars like Aruan who I'll thank personally here, corrected me on the details, I edited in a correction while still iterating that I thought that was a distraction from discussion of Biden, which it is. This is you grasping at straws to try and create a conspiracy, but let me tell you, as someone who had daily panic attacks for the entire month Kavanaugh was being nominated, this is not a partisan issue for me, a cliquish issue to me, or anything else. Do not try to act like I, a survivor of sexual assault, want to weaponize sexual assault. Grooglon posted:I'm a victim of sexual assault who did the moral calculus and voted for Biden. I have: I can only speak for myself, but the real conflict point with me over Biden's election was never just people deciding to vote for someone despite them being a rapist, which we've all as a country have done in the past, it's the idea that there was no line a Democratic candidate could cross to disqualify them from the election. I think Biden was disqualified in a lot of ways and that's not the topic of the thread, but the reason I think it's become close to a "meme" about the rape (and I hate that it has) is because it signified that no criticism of Biden could ever be viewed as damning by some Democrat voters. I asked a lot of friends of mine who were voting for Biden, "Where is the line for you," and they couldn't bring themselves to answer. Clearly, this was a line for you, and I imagine it was a line for a lot of survivors who voted reluctantly, and even those who didn't vote so reluctantly, I understand. The problem becomes when there is no line, at which point whatever moral superiority the Democrats supposedly have over the Republicans ceases to function. I think that is an interesting lesson to take going forward, between this and Breonna Taylor, is that just repeating an assertion over and over, be it, "Joe Biden is a rapist," or, "Today would be a great day to arrest Breonna Taylor's killers," will not compel action. When looked at the riots this summer, which did at least get some action done, it's clear that George Floyd's death became more of a flashpoint than Taylor's because an immediate and dramatic consequence occurred. A dramatic consequence to Reade's situation was always going to be difficult to occur because they only reached public conscious right when the pandemic was kicking off, but I hope in the future there is a way to organize something swiftly and incapable of being ignored if this ever comes up again. I'm not talking a riot per se, but there has to be an immediate response. Because the real faltering of #metoo was seen well before Reade, when the Oscars went out of their way to denounce Weinstein, turn a new leaf, had a row of actresses affirm a new day was dawning... and now, accepting an Oscar for Best Animation, Kobe Bryant. That should've tipped me off sooner how things were going to go. I will say as thorny as this thread has gotten sometimes, I'm glad it's been made and I'm glad conversation is happening in it.
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Feb 9, 2021 01:12
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Grouchio posted:I believe that Reade was sexually harassed in the distant past but not sexually assaulted like with Ford. There would've been more credence to her larger claim had she not decided RT to be her main outlet, and had she not begun actively supporting Putin before 2020. silicone thrills posted:I feel like you are just trolling this thread at this point. Pentecoastal Elites posted:Grouchio has a history of posting weird misogynistic poo poo, and specifically about Reade as well, which their rap sheet attests to. I don't think they should be taken very seriously in this thread (or indeed this subforum). In the liberal and social media, discussion of Tara Reade is kept away from mainstream discourse. Their audience is given permission to ignore it, but if they do decide look at it outside of their bubble, treat it as a spectacle; a weaponized and insincere propaganda attack. The very silencing of Tara Reade and relegating her to the margins of discourse is used as proof of her lack of credibility:  code:
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Feb 9, 2021 01:17
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Probably Magic posted:That's straight-up a lie on several fronts. A, the post you're referring to was in a different thread, some kind of feedback thread or the like, not my thread, B, I never "vehemently" denied anything from the outset, I just stated I didn't know and was under the impression that the women had dropped the case, and C, when some D&D regulars like Aruan who I'll thank personally here, corrected me on the details, I edited in a correction while still iterating that I thought that was a distraction from discussion of Biden, which it is. This is you grasping at straws to try and create a conspiracy, but let me tell you, as someone who had daily panic attacks for the entire month Kavanaugh was being nominated, this is not a partisan issue for me, a cliquish issue to me, or anything else. Do not try to act like I, a survivor of sexual assault, want to weaponize sexual assault. You are right, I did misremember what thread it was in. And yeah, it seems you later went in and edited your post to condemn Assange, apologies. Criticism withdrawn. 
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Feb 9, 2021 01:53
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silicone thrills posted:Mostly how I felt towards the whole of D&D during that time. I felt like the entirety of D&D was laughing and making GBS threads on sexual violence victims and given I came from being a D&D poster not long before that, it made me fairly bitter towards the whole subforum and it made me lose alot of faith in politics in general. It kicked me into depression pretty hard which is like. yeah I know im broke brained for spending so much time on a forum but that's just me. I had really bad clinical depression and had it treated and am much better now. Yeah some really unambiguously lovely stuff was posted about reade back in, uh first half of 2020? Personally I refused to even read any of the threads that were doing reade chat cuz it seemed entirely gross to me to be doing the 'lets scrutinize everything about the accuser' poo poo and my mental well-being does not need me reading a bunch of that poo poo. I couldn't even start reading the GE thread until substantially after people ate the week and month probes over it (and I wasn't made an Ik until a couple months after that). Sure some people are assholes and will 'weaponize' everything or whatever, but my general feeling is that that accusation is very often is used as a tool to dismiss criticism and that there is very valid criticism that should be directed towards how dnd handled the reade stuff early on in here. I generally find that most people in dnd (or sa in general) complaining about stuff are doing it from a very earnest place if anything. What I saw of the reade stuff I felt was categorically inappropriate and I'm sorry you were one of the people hurt by how it was treated in dnd. I'm sorry to anyone else who had a similar reaction. It seemed completely loving inevitable that a thread skeptically digging into reade's past was going to be a toxic dumpster fire that was going to hurt a bunch of people who knew what it was like to have their experiences doubted. One of my sincere hopes is that in the current state of dnd a thread would never be allowed to be nearly as lovely as the early reade threads were. Maybe I'm dumbly optimistic, but as one of the 8 people IKd in the aftermath of that, that whole thing was part of the reason why I was willing to even do thankless ik janitor poo poo. I can't speak for others, but I believe that is true of the other recent IKs. (apologies if any of this is poorly put, i'm not fully caught up on this thread and it's not a subject i'm really able to step back from and be objective about, either) Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 02:43 on Feb 9, 2021 |
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Feb 9, 2021 02:39
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Probably Magic posted:That's straight-up a lie on several fronts. A, the post you're referring to was in a different thread, some kind of feedback thread or the like, not my thread, B, I never "vehemently" denied anything from the outset, I just stated I didn't know and was under the impression that the women had dropped the case, and C, when some D&D regulars like Aruan who I'll thank personally here, corrected me on the details, I edited in a correction while still iterating that I thought that was a distraction from discussion of Biden, which it is. This is you grasping at straws to try and create a conspiracy, but let me tell you, as someone who had daily panic attacks for the entire month Kavanaugh was being nominated, this is not a partisan issue for me, a cliquish issue to me, or anything else. Do not try to act like I, a survivor of sexual assault, want to weaponize sexual assault. I am perfectly fine to tell you or anyone who asks where that line is in terms of a bridge too Far. As far as the mental calculus there were several variables here, mainly that Biden's opponent was Trump. It wasn't just a vacuum equation. It literally (in my mind) is a trolly problem. Biden being elected has saved tens of thousands of lives, if not hundreds. I can believe her and still decide that given those circumstances, I will vote for the lesser of two bads because it saves lives, including my own parents. Is that selfish? I'm sure it is, but so are people who in 2021 choose to have children. Also you bring up Bryant, who did pay for his wrongdoing, ( financially) but I feel like that's a side tangent about what is a society punishment that is justified given said circumstances. Should he be bared for ever being rewarded again for other actions. But again, that's a different conversation.
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Feb 9, 2021 03:23
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silicone thrills posted:Mostly how I felt towards the whole of D&D during that time. I felt like the entirety of D&D was laughing and making GBS threads on sexual violence victims and given I came from being a D&D poster not long before that, it made me fairly bitter towards the whole subforum and it made me lose alot of faith in politics in general. It kicked me into depression pretty hard which is like. yeah I know im broke brained for spending so much time on a forum but that's just me. I had really bad clinical depression and had it treated and am much better now. There were days I posted in that GE thread in defense of Reade against people "just asking questions" where my wife literally made me log off the computer because it was putting me in such an awful head space. I'm sorry you went through that, you're not alone.
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Feb 9, 2021 03:47
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LionArcher posted:I am perfectly fine to tell you or anyone who asks where that line is in terms of a bridge too Far. How many women does Joe Biden have to rape before its a bridge too far for you?
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Feb 9, 2021 04:52
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ScootsMcSkirt posted:How many women does Joe Biden have to rape before its a bridge too far for you? Could you perhaps try to frame this a little less aggressively? That poster appears to have made a sincere post in good faith in an attempt to engage on this issue, and this is kind of a lovely way to respond. I'm going to say right here and now that mods/IKs are monitoring this thread very closely and we're going to be trying to make sure that this topic can be discussed with as little toxicity as possible. If you gently caress this up by targeting posters, trying to bait people with gotchas, or trying to shame people for whoever they voted for in 2020, you can  right now and save us all the trouble. This is not an own zone for tearing people down, this is a thread in which people are sharing intimate details at their own public risk, and discussing extremely sensitive topics, so tread carefully if you choose to participate in this discussion.
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Feb 9, 2021 05:00
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LionArcher posted:Also you bring up Bryant, who did pay for his wrongdoing, ( financially) but I feel like that's a side tangent about what is a society punishment that is justified given said circumstances. Should he be bared for ever being rewarded again for other actions. Yes, gently caress him. Kobe and his legal team also smeared and destroyed his accuser, how do you "pay" for that? All he did was give up a fraction of his money, he kept being rich and getting celebrated as a hero.
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Feb 9, 2021 10:00
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Like, the Republicans made sure to appear to be respectful towards Kavanaugh's accuser and downplay her because they knew it'd make them look bad to be going after her, while the Democrats and their affiliated media went for a full and total monstering of Tara Reade. And it came fresh off the latest attempts to smear Bernie Sanders by having a 'body language expert' declare him to be an obvious sexual predator based on basically phrenology. It all ties in with a deeply unpleasant turn of the liberal sphere into aggressive Pleasantville level denial of reality and aggressively attacking anyone who dares threaten their perfect world by bringing up actual problems and issues. (actually kinda funny with WandaVision coming out about now)
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Feb 9, 2021 10:33
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Ghost Leviathan posted:Like, the Republicans made sure to appear to be respectful towards Kavanaugh's accuser and downplay her because they knew it'd make them look bad to be going after her, while the Democrats and their affiliated media went for a full and total monstering of Tara Reade. And it came fresh off the latest attempts to smear Bernie Sanders by having a 'body language expert' declare him to be an obvious sexual predator based on basically phrenology. idk what republicans you're referring to, Christine Blasey Ford had to move out of her house from the stream of death threats and other harassment she was getting. Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 11:12 on Feb 9, 2021 |
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Feb 9, 2021 11:10
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LionArcher posted:I am perfectly fine to tell you or anyone who asks where that line is in terms of a bridge too Far. As far as the mental calculus there were several variables here, mainly that Biden's opponent was Trump. It wasn't just a vacuum equation. It literally (in my mind) is a trolly problem. Biden being elected has saved tens of thousands of lives, if not hundreds. I can believe her and still decide that given those circumstances, I will vote for the lesser of two bads because it saves lives, including my own parents. Is that selfish? I'm sure it is, but so are people who in 2021 choose to have children. How do you figure Biden being elected has saved lives - by asking people to wear masks for 100 days and pushing schools to open? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 9, 2021 12:21
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Herstory Begins Now posted:idk what republicans you're referring to, Christine Blasey Ford had to move out of her house from the stream of death threats and other harassment she was getting. 1) When we get to the point where we're trying to celebrate Republican treatment of Ford which is simply undermining what Ford went through. Republican politicians acting with decorum while they know that their followers are harassing her isn't good treatment, it's gaslighting. 2) It really is not as straight forward as "We don't go after people on our side." I think the big example of this is Bloomberg in the primaries. The candidates went hard after Bloomberg for the BEST case scenario of the Biden story. And to be clear they should have, gently caress Bloomberg. The issue was that Biden ALWAYS had a huge boost going in. You can throw a donor or a congressman to the side or unlikable New York Mayor, but the candidate with the most juice who is tied to the biggest political force on the Democratic side while also going against Donald Trump. That's not to excuse or justify any of it. I agree with the sentiment that either someone needed to take Biden aside and tell him no OR something like the Warren smackdown needed to happen early on. Instead we had Castro making agist jokes. I think it's a moment that more illustrates underlying calculation of risk taking that always goes on. It's not a happy feel good narrative and it doesn't paint the people involved any better as in the tribal narrative. I do feel like the issue of calculation is an easier one to solve than the issue of tribalism. Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 14:39 on Feb 9, 2021 |
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Feb 9, 2021 14:27
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No one is "celebrating" the Republicans' treatment of Ford. They had, strategically, little reason to smear her directly as sitting politicians -- their aligned media did that work and their constituents would have believed Ford was a godless lying communist traitor regardless. The Democrats, on the other hand, had and have every reason to go after Reade as viciously and vociferously as possible, because they have to deal with the two principal positions in their messaging that Reade threatened: 1) We are the party of #metoo, believing women, social justice, standing up to abusers, and equality. 2) Joe Biden is the figurehead and embodiment of these values, and leads our most progressive administration ever. I know I'm in D&D but I genuinely hope that we can be adult enough to recognize that, while this is absolutely the image the Democrats want to project, they're positions and not goals, and certainly not the actual material goals of the party (strengthening their donor base, securing and expanding the economic and international relationships that benefit them, etc) -- or, at the very least, the goals of Joe Biden's administration and their wing of the party. Biden, and his image, are central to pursuing these goals because the image, and not the material goals, are what resonates with the rank-and-file Democrat voters. So, if Biden is revealed to be a rapist, or at least becomes popularly perceived as one, #2 can't be true. If #2 is true and Biden isn't dismissed by the party (which can't happen, especially now), #1 -- the entire basis for Democrat image and messaging -- cannot be true. In order to keep their voting base so as to pursue their economic and political goals, the Democrats CANNOT allow Reade to be perceived as telling the truth. It undermines their entire project. That's why they had to go after her, and that's why they'll continue to go after her for at least as long as keeps speaking out about what Biden did to her (and probably until she, or maybe Biden, dies)
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Feb 9, 2021 17:26
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Doctor Nutt posted:
Would it require more of the victims to come forward? For the allegations to have been even more egregious? If we are going to appeal to the greater good, I think it's fair to ask how much evil we are willing to bring along with it.
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Feb 9, 2021 18:03
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quote:If we are going to appeal to the greater good, I think it's fair to ask how much evil we are willing to bring along with it. This is doubly true and an especially valid question for those who frame this issue this in terms of a trolley problem. e: ugh broken multi-quotes
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Feb 9, 2021 18:06
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Andenno posted:You can ask for it to be phrased differently, but I think it's a valid question about this line of reasoning, not a "gotcha." If Biden is acceptable as the lesser evil, how much more evil would still be "lesser?" It is a super-important question, but I think you phrased it better here yourself. Let's do our best not to sound accusatory of one another in this thread, as much as we can help it, and that goes for everyone, on all sides of this discussion. The discussion will go better that way, guaranteed. Herstory Begins Now posted:idk what republicans you're referring to, Christine Blasey Ford had to move out of her house from the stream of death threats and other harassment she was getting. I think GL was referring to the Senate Republicans who questioned her during the Kav hearings.
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Feb 9, 2021 18:30
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Majorian posted:I think GL was referring to the Senate Republicans who questioned her during the Kav hearings. The strategy by Trump and the GOP at the hearings and elsewhere was to treat the Ford accusations as a sham and political stunt by Democratic congressmen. "Republicans treated Ford respectfully" doesn't pass a laugh test, from the beginning they tried to dismiss the entire thing on the technicality that it was not brought to them on a timely basis and therefore just theater. Graham in his famous five minute diatribe that saved the hearings from being a complete political debacle for Republicans does indeed intimate that he believed that Democrats mishandled Ford's accusation by bringing it in late, but that is about all the consideration he gives it. As far as being respectful, we're talking about President Trump here, get real. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCKzBCx9Cag Let's start from the presumption that the DNC and allied media got their hands dirty for Biden in muddying up the waters on Reade--pretty likely, I'd say, as that is basically how these scandals work. To think that Republicans don't follow the same playbook is a step beyond naive into willfully ignorant. I dislike having to read about how respectful Republicans are about sexual harassment, assault, and rape allegations in this thread where the default position is to believe women, when the last Republican POTUS has allegations against him that are beyond count and is on tape admitting to assault. Implying that Republicans have outflanked Democrats on #metoo really does nothing but fatally undermine a poster's credibility as anything but a person using all this to push a political agenda. If that were even remotely true, for starters they would have withdrawn Kavanaugh immediately and put up anybody else from their Heritage Foundation waiting list for consideration. As it is the circumstantial evidence to Ford's allegation is arguably stronger, the hearings debased the GOP in the eyes of women voters, and Kavanaugh now sits with a lifetime appointment.
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Feb 9, 2021 19:08
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Majorian posted:It is a super-important question, but I think you phrased it better here yourself. Let's do our best not to sound accusatory of one another in this thread, as much as we can help it, and that goes for everyone, on all sides of this discussion. The discussion will go better that way, guaranteed. Those would be the senate republicans who blocked the fbi from doing an even basic investigation into her accusations.
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Feb 9, 2021 19:14
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Herstory Begins Now posted:Those would be the senate republicans who blocked the fbi from doing an even basic investigation into her accusations. Yup. The Senate Republicans pulled extremely dirty poo poo like that quietly and behind the scenes, and then pretended to respect Ford during questioning. Their narrative was, "We're so sorry that the Democrats have gaslit you into this cynical, dishonest exercise." As always, the strategy was, "project, project, project!" e: lol, the irony that that piece is by the truly execrable Mimi Rocah is not lost on me. Majorian fucked around with this message at 20:21 on Feb 9, 2021 |
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Feb 9, 2021 20:11
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Useful Distraction posted:Yes, gently caress him. Cool. Are you white? because if you are, and you're not more pissed at someone like Tom Brady (who is both clearly a worse human being and also a worse athlete) then your high horsing something that's at least partly fueled in racial biases. Kobe's legal team did what they were paid to do. And yes, it was lovely. And yes, he at least admitted fault and paid a fee. Was justice served? That feels like a different conversation honestly. But I will say if you look at his actions after the case, it appears that he was in fact trying to right wrongs. He championed female sports, put a spotlight on them and was doing a drat good job of being a coach. And now he's dead, so if nothing else your post is in poor taste, but this feels like a derail. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 9, 2021 23:43
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I mean, I don't give a gently caress if he's put in the Hall of Fame, I get it, I even rooted for him before all that went down, but it was more a matter of optics, picking that specific Oscars to give him an award in, it just left a really disingenuous air to the whole thing.
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Feb 9, 2021 23:57
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