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Jimbozig posted:Sorry, I should have said that SOME of the posts were wrong. Your posts were not wrong, just a little incomplete so some other posters were speculating inaccurately. I mean, I think that's at least part of what makes it a great mechanic -- there are loads of possible ways you could take 'monster actions determined by moving around on a hex grid'.
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Feb 9, 2021 16:17
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SkyeAuroline posted:Someone else will be along to write in more detail, I'm sure, but quick notes before I go to bed: I agree with you about dice pools and modifiers right now, but I didn't when I was younger. In something like Shadowrun 3E, I actually liked the way increasing target numbers and exploding sixes meant that the same task might be routine under optimal circumstances but drat near impossible in combat conditions. I'm too busy today for a game where one firefight can take up the entire session. If Ilor and I ever end up in the same old folks' home, then who knows what might happen?
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Feb 9, 2021 16:17
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Zorak of Michigan posted:I agree with you about dice pools and modifiers right now, but I didn't when I was younger. In something like Shadowrun 3E, I actually liked the way increasing target numbers and exploding sixes meant that the same task might be routine under optimal circumstances but drat near impossible in combat conditions. I'm too busy today for a game where one firefight can take up the entire session. If Ilor and I ever end up in the same old folks' home, then who knows what might happen? Oh, Shadowrun's implementation is fine-ish even if I'm not huge on it; flat "hits" per die vs TN is a bit roundabout of an approach to what a single die could do normally, but from what I remember (granted, that's 4/5e) the individual hits could matter in ways margin of success alone wouldn't. Exploding sixes are another nice unexpected bonus mechanism. Where I'm talking about modifiers is less of a SR thing; take two dice away from a sam and they're still rolling 10+ dice with flat, predictable odds per die in 99% of situations. The Silhouette mechanic I was referencing is that Silcore is "pool of d6es, take highest" and gets around the constraint of how little range that gives by letting you stack sixes. Very rapid diminishing returns and no way to plan for 7+ results. What this results in, aside from some weird math, is that the difficulty chart runs from TNs 1 to 10; 1-6 are varying ranges of "easy to somewhat difficult", and 7+ immediately ramp up into "nearly or completely impossible". There's very, very little room to play with that for TN variance without either undercutting the difficulty or putting a brick wall in players' way. Contrast "12 dice @ 33% success chance = 4 hits average, take a -3 penalty for 3 hits average" that's much easier to figure out on the fly as a GM for reasonable difficulty adjustments.
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Feb 9, 2021 16:30
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CitizenKeen posted:What game had dueling grids where you could "move" to spaces orthogonal to your current action type? It was different sword-fighting styles or something like. Was it Spellbound Kingdoms? yeah, that's Spellbound Kingdoms
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Feb 9, 2021 16:45
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Xiahou Dun posted:Target numbers and dicepools should not be mixed at the table because seriously that's too much math for anyone to do on the fly. If you think you can do it, you're wrong and just being an example of the Dunning-Kruger Effect. Like, this isn't me being lovely but if you think you can do the odds of 6d10 at TN7 vs. 5d10 at TN6 at the speed to make a GM judgement, you're either wrong or some kind of prodigy. I'm a nerd enough that I bring that up with PhD math people and the response is always some variation of, "Whoof! Uh... Let me think." That makes me realize that I should have split it into "additive dice pools" vs. "success counting dice pools", and that still wouldn't quite cover Blades in the Dark, I guess. (I think that's what you're getting at here, too?) Anyway, thanks for the responses, all!
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Feb 9, 2021 17:42
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I love this idea of baking in an AI or any sort of decision making system into an enemy stat block, I mostly run published adventures these days and it's a pain having to look over a predefined encounter to work out a battle plan and then keeping that present in your mind for maybe 3-4 encounters in a session. More than once I started running a battle only to realize one enemy had an ability that was cool but that would have required another step of prepping and that I absolutely wasn't going to bother with now.
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Feb 9, 2021 17:59
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CitizenKeen posted:What game had dueling grids where you could "move" to spaces orthogonal to your current action type? It was different sword-fighting styles or something like. Was it Spellbound Kingdoms? I've thought for a while that a Dark Souls-like game in pen and paper format would really suit Spellbound Kingdoms' fighting style trees really well. It's a good way to capture the "plan around potential outcomes, dodge, and attack appropriately" you get in the real-time combat of those types of video games, but in a more static format.
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Feb 9, 2021 20:39
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Nuns with Guns posted:I've thought for a while that a Dark Souls-like game in pen and paper format would really suit Spellbound Kingdoms' fighting style trees really well. It's a good way to capture the "plan around potential outcomes, dodge, and attack appropriately" you get in the real-time combat of those types of video games, but in a more static format. The appeal, to me, is that it allows for some decision making with lots of varied options, without all the options presented at once. (I misspoke earlier by calling it a state machine, since there's some decision making by the user.) But by having a connected graph, you have tons of cool abilities. But only some of them are available now, which for many people would limit their analysis paralysis. "Here are the three cool moves I can do right now." Then you have the next level of "Here are the three cool moves I can do right now, and I want to vaguely move toward the upper right corner of my ability graph". So you can get into the strategy, etc., if you want. Also, a graph like that could bundle abilities. I like bundling, because it makes there be a reason for "less optimal" mechanical abilities.
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Feb 9, 2021 21:54
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potatocubed posted:For more tactical games I'm also liking 'all attacks auto-hit, but if you make the attack roll you get a bonus' which I don't think I've seen any game do yet but is sort of floating around in game design circles. I especially like the idea that your auto-hit conveys some sort of status effect (poison buildup, push, mark, etc.) but to do actual damage you have to make the attack roll. That feels like it would avoid 'death is the ultimate control' by basically forcing players to make use of their status applying/exploiting abilities. Monsterpunk does this. Outside of combat, you're rolling a D10: 1-4 is a Twist (something goes wrong), 5-7 is Success with a Twist, 8-9 is Success, and 10 is Success with a Bonus. In combat, however, 1-4 is Base Effect, 5-7 is Base+1 Bonus Effect, 8-9 is Base+2 Bonus Effects, and 10 is Base+3 Bonus Effects. A lot of powers have a condition as the base effect, and only do damage with bonuses. It definitely has some 4e DNA to it, but also does some neat things on its own.
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Feb 9, 2021 21:57
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Night10194 posted:This was the logic of a fairy lord in one of my games. "Wait, so, I leave a fetch with the parents, kidnap the human child, and then I raise the human child to have a life of adventure and magic which I am informed by MANY sources human children LOVE and then the parents also get a child (the fetch) to love and raise, so it's a victimless crime!" I love this and am officially going to steal it.
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Feb 10, 2021 00:59
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bbcisdabomb posted:I love this and am officially going to steal it. As the player of the child in question, it was in fact not a victimless crime (but Fionnuala met her fetch, got over her unease at watching the life she should have been living instead of being a hitman/exterminator for the fey court, and reconciled with her, and then the two of them made Nuala's boss/mother figure swear an oath not to do that poo poo again).
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Feb 10, 2021 02:17
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Nuns with Guns posted:I've thought for a while that a Dark Souls-like game in pen and paper format would really suit Spellbound Kingdoms' fighting style trees really well. It's a good way to capture the "plan around potential outcomes, dodge, and attack appropriately" you get in the real-time combat of those types of video games, but in a more static format. I'd love to see more games lifting from it. Imagine how great it would be for an Avatar inspired game.
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Feb 10, 2021 02:24
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Tsilkani posted:Monsterpunk does this. Outside of combat, you're rolling a D10: 1-4 is a Twist (something goes wrong), 5-7 is Success with a Twist, 8-9 is Success, and 10 is Success with a Bonus. In combat, however, 1-4 is Base Effect, 5-7 is Base+1 Bonus Effect, 8-9 is Base+2 Bonus Effects, and 10 is Base+3 Bonus Effects. A lot of powers have a condition as the base effect, and only do damage with bonuses. It definitely has some 4e DNA to it, but also does some neat things on its own. That’s a Strike variant.
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Feb 10, 2021 03:11
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CitizenKeen posted:The appeal, to me, is that it allows for some decision making with lots of varied options, without all the options presented at once. (I misspoke earlier by calling it a state machine, since there's some decision making by the user.) But by having a connected graph, you have tons of cool abilities. But only some of them are available now, which for many people would limit their analysis paralysis. "Here are the three cool moves I can do right now." Then you have the next level of "Here are the three cool moves I can do right now, and I want to vaguely move toward the upper right corner of my ability graph". So you can get into the strategy, etc., if you want. Yeah, it feels like a perennial problem when you get tactical, ability-based games of "how do you stop the PCs from dropping all their supernova attacks turn 1 and obliterating the boss?" And I've seen games where they put a timer in place that incentivizes holding back or flat blocks you until a certain condition or stage is triggered in a fight, but I'd like to see more games where you're deliberately building on prior attacks you made, and where you might need to think tactically about how your attacks leave you open, or how you might need to swerve to a more defensive maneuver based on the active state of an enemy. Spellbound Kingdoms combat trees allow for that kind of interesting tactical approach in fights. Maybe it's a bit board game-y, but I don't know, I find that idea engaging in the same kind of way 4e D&D's combat had tactical weight. Except this is a lot less dependent on rigid grid and minis combat, with a much tighter control on your suite of available powers. Haystack posted:I'd love to see more games lifting from it. Imagine how great it would be for an Avatar inspired game. Yeah, Avatar, or regular kung-fu-type games could really be fun with a system like that. Or even more than Dark Souls, it's incredibly close to how combat plays out in the Monster Hunter games, with the way weapon attack chains and combos function in that series.
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Feb 10, 2021 03:51
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Nuns with Guns posted:I've thought for a while that a Dark Souls-like game in pen and paper format would really suit Spellbound Kingdoms' fighting style trees really well. It's a good way to capture the "plan around potential outcomes, dodge, and attack appropriately" you get in the real-time combat of those types of video games, but in a more static format. Unless you mean exposing the combat matrix to the players from the beginning, that could work. Or you could reveal each segment as it's used. Nuns with Guns posted:Yeah, it feels like a perennial problem when you get tactical, ability-based games of "how do you stop the PCs from dropping all their supernova attacks turn 1 and obliterating the boss?" And I've seen games where they put a timer in place that incentivizes holding back or flat blocks you until a certain condition or stage is triggered in a fight, but I'd like to see more games where you're deliberately building on prior attacks you made, and where you might need to think tactically about how your attacks leave you open, or how you might need to swerve to a more defensive maneuver based on the active state of an enemy.
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Feb 10, 2021 15:18
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I had a vague idea of doing something Dark Souls-ish by having characters level up each time they die. There's not a real equivalent you can do for the "player gets better at game" stuff that happens in a Souls game, though. The closest equivalent would be something like learning the boss is cold vulnerable halfway through your first attempt, dying to the boss, and then exploiting the cold vulnerability from turn 1. Not sure it's really a worthwhile project to pursue, though - doing the same fight over and over in a video game is different to doing it over and over with pen and paper around a dining table (not that anyone except Aussies and Kiwis get to do that any more)
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Feb 10, 2021 15:43
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Gort posted:There's not a real equivalent you can do for the "player gets better at game" stuff that happens in a Souls game, though. The closest equivalent would be something like learning the boss is cold vulnerable halfway through your first attempt, dying to the boss, and then exploiting the cold vulnerability from turn 1. Something something, system mastery, Monte Cook's monkey paw curling. "Advancement born of setbacks" is a good idea though. Death might be harsh for most games, but in a setting where death isn't final (I'm thinking a way more depressing Godbound sort of thing here) and is more of a "lost time and opportunities" danger, very workable.
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Feb 10, 2021 15:58
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Splicer posted:An issue with this, and it was a bit of an issue with 4E, is that things like dark souls rely on repetition in learning the attacks. You might face the same boss multiple times before you defeat them or go through multiple rounds just learning their tells. That doesn't translate well to tabletop because you're not really going to be fighting the same guy over and over and one fight lasting long enough to learn all the tells is a hell of a long fight. Thats pretty much how Spellbound Kingdoms handles it. All of the style sheets (the combat flowchart thingies) are in the back of the book, even the monster-exlusive ones. It's pretty easy to look at the enemy style sheets in front of the GM and see that, oh poo poo that musketeer is deep into his moveset and about to actually shoot someone, better do something about that.
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Feb 10, 2021 16:29
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Splicer posted:An issue with this, and it was a bit of an issue with 4E, is that things like dark souls rely on repetition in learning the attacks. You might face the same boss multiple times before you defeat them or go through multiple rounds just learning their tells. That doesn't translate well to tabletop because you're not really going to be fighting the same guy over and over and one fight lasting long enough to learn all the tells is a hell of a long fight. That is pretty much how the combat in Spellbound Kingdoms works. The GM and player both have their flow charts with maneuver notations out in front of them, with a marker of some kind showing where they currently are in the flow chart. You can trade off turns, but it's recommended that the player and enemy choose and reveal their actions at the same time. You can gauge what's an appropriate maneuver to take by looking at where the enemy is on their flow chart and evaluating the risks/rewards of what your action would be, depending on if you think the enemy will do a strong attack, defensive action, etc. Partially just out of necessity, the different combat trees for enemies are usually generalized and meant to be used in a lot of different encounters. Like various large beasts or armored soldiers may use the same fighting styles, so there is a level of mastery to have there in becoming familiar with what different fighting styles are capable of with each attack and good counters to take. Splicer posted:Something I've been tossing around for a while was a system where you use your at wills to build up points, and then spend those points to activate your encounter/daily equivalents (or at will riders or whatever). So for martials it would be something like "tactics" or "control" while spellcasters would "attune". That would be a cool thing to try, though it does run into the wider issue 4e has of defining and comfortably fitting each class into a designated role. Sometimes 4e was great about that (Defender mechanics) but other times they clearly struggled to define that niche (Controllers). It'd be a lot of work keeping all those roles consistently defined, balanced, and also unique on a per-class basis. Nuns with Guns fucked around with this message at 17:32 on Feb 10, 2021 |
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Feb 10, 2021 17:25
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Gort posted:I had a vague idea of doing something Dark Souls-ish by having characters level up each time they die. https://www.phoenixdawncommand.com/ Phoenix Dawn Command plays this game, by Keith Baker of Eberron fame.
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Feb 10, 2021 17:35
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Nuns with Guns posted:That would be a cool thing to try, though it does run into the wider issue 4e has of defining and comfortably fitting each class into a designated role. Sometimes 4e was great about that (Defender mechanics) but other times they clearly struggled to define that niche (Controllers). It'd be a lot of work keeping all those roles consistently defined, balanced, and also unique on a per-class basis.
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Feb 10, 2021 17:44
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We've got a CYOA thread tag now, in TG and in TGR. If anyone wants a thread's tag changed, just let me know. This new tag is courtesy BYOB. Leperflesh fucked around with this message at 20:33 on Feb 10, 2021 |
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Feb 10, 2021 20:29
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CitizenKeen posted:https://www.phoenixdawncommand.com/ I cringe a little harder every time someone comes up with a new version of the term "Game Master"
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Feb 10, 2021 20:54
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Splicer posted:Bit of a miscommunication there: "attune" vs "tactics" are just arbitrary class-themed labels for the same universal mechanic of "Use weak power -> get pebbles -> User ear power again for more pebbles or spend pebbles to use strong power". Oh okay, yeah that would be fun. I'd love to see how something like that would look in a game.
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Feb 10, 2021 22:16
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Leperflesh posted:We've got a CYOA thread tag now, in TG and in TGR. If anyone wants a thread's tag changed, just let me know. BYOB is full of talented sweethearts! 
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Feb 10, 2021 22:18
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Gort posted:I cringe a little harder every time someone comes up with a new version of the term "Game Master" I appreciate that more games seem to be moving on to Game Moderator, but I do dislike system/setting-specific terms for the role, absolutely.
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Feb 11, 2021 00:20
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Gort posted:I had a vague idea of doing something Dark Souls-ish by having characters level up each time they die.
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Feb 11, 2021 03:43
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I keep having to remind myself that Phoenix Command and Phoenix: Dawn Command are different games because I keep getting excited at the thought of the former getting an update/remake/re-release.
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Feb 11, 2021 03:47
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Still can't decide which is sillier between Hollyhock God and the slightly more straightforward Game Operations Director.
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Feb 11, 2021 03:49
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They're doing an anniversary Kickstarter for Everway, eh? That was my first foray into games that weren't D&D and I bought it for twenty bucks at a DunDraCon when I was 12 or 13. I imagine all the various cards in it which lacked any text (or context) were supposed to be the resolution mechanic by playing one and interpreting what that meant when you wanted to like, make a sandwich. What did the bee invasion pyramid card mean in this context? I also realize that may have had an influence on how my brain works these days.
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Feb 11, 2021 03:54
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I am sad that the physical editions of the new EverWay are so expensive: $150 for the books and cards is probably reasonable given the production costs, but that's way out of my price range, and a small print run means it'll be just as difficult to get a hold of the new edition later on as it was to get a copy of the old.
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Feb 11, 2021 04:03
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I just double checked and they're anticipating fulfillment August 2021? That's optimistic especially given the print run. I would love to see a print on demand option of the cards in the future. I was actually looking into how DriveThruCards has editors for making custom cards for some games and there are a surprising amount of print and play cardgames out there, or at least, that are brand new to me. Cards + tabletop RPGs combining has always been a pretty underutilized space, I feel like.
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Feb 11, 2021 04:08
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Also, hi. You may not follow the thread for threads, but I did make a threadsheet in case you want to view some threads without going into the thread for threads: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14pFGfN1iSHXQg5sTsJ_OpYGFvOm_QtAZy6Ql79T2bCA/edit?usp=sharing If anybody has any ideas on how to improve that then get at me.
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Feb 11, 2021 04:13
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gradenko_2000 posted:I keep having to remind myself that Phoenix Command and Phoenix: Dawn Command are different games because I keep getting excited at the thought of the former getting an update/remake/re-release. Someone claiming to have been in communication with Barry Nakazono said it was OK for the Phoenix Command Mailing List to share Phoenix Command PDFs. I tried sending a letter to Nakazono asking for his blessing/permission/help with making a retroclone, but I don't actually know if he ever got it - one of the problems with 20 year old mailing addresses written in the front of elfgame books!
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Feb 11, 2021 05:21
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aldantefax posted:They're doing an anniversary Kickstarter for Everway, eh? That was my first foray into games that weren't D&D and I bought it for twenty bucks at a DunDraCon when I was 12 or 13. I imagine all the various cards in it which lacked any text (or context) were supposed to be the resolution mechanic by playing one and interpreting what that meant when you wanted to like, make a sandwich. What did the bee invasion pyramid card mean in this context? Nope, the picture cards were there predominately for character creation, you drew or chose five of them and described how they informed or inspired your character. The actual resolution model uses a tarot deck sort of thing that's also in the box.
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Feb 11, 2021 06:18
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You can do dark souls combat, by stealing from WoW / FF:XIV raids. Place a large hitbox on the field, anyone in that hitbox will receive X amount of damage. They start to get more complex as the battle goes on. From what I understand most DND 4e battles don't go past turn 4 or 5, so you want to up the complexity fast. Maybe even open with the attack so that it can't be avoided the first time, and then place the hitbox down for the next time.
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Feb 11, 2021 07:11
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aldantefax posted:Cards + tabletop RPGs combining has always been a pretty underutilized space, I feel like. It super, super is. I played in a lengthy playtest of a friend's unpublished card-based RPG, and while that game was never going to be publication-worthy, it demonstrated a lot of really interesting design space. Characters were represented by a tarot-esque spread of cards (which we all customized to our preferred aesthetic using shared template files), and just having your "character sheet" be a modular set of physical objects that could be rearranged on the fly opened up so many interesting options. Damage or setbacks could flip cards to disable them, while rest or a shoulder to cry on could flip them back. Secrets could be hidden deeper in your array (closer to the heart) so that casual observation revealing only the surface layers of the array would miss your contraband or your identity as an assassin. One memorable scene required that we collapse the entire array into a deck ordered by how much emotional weight each thing had for us, which was then eaten from the top down as we progressed into a cave whose psychic emanations eroded us, so that the cards were physically destroyed ala Risk Legacy. In the end it was very much a fantasy heartbreaker that needed a lot more exposure to the modern state of game design to get to a publishable state, and the custom cards were a burden of prep for everyone, but it's something I'd love to see tackled in other forms.
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Feb 11, 2021 09:16
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aldantefax posted:I just double checked and they're anticipating fulfillment August 2021? That's optimistic especially given the print run. I would love to see a print on demand option of the cards in the future. I was actually looking into how DriveThruCards has editors for making custom cards for some games and there are a surprising amount of print and play cardgames out there, or at least, that are brand new to me. Cards + tabletop RPGs combining has always been a pretty underutilized space, I feel like. Still want to do that idea I had for a Yu-Gi-Oh RPG where combat is resolved through actually playing a modified version of the real card game
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Feb 11, 2021 09:35
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There's also the extent to which card-based design in TTRPGs revolves around keeping the number of cards you're going to use nice and low. I originally planned for Unnamed Farming Game to be card-based but when I did some ballpark cost estimates for it I realised that nobody would pay the sort of money necessary to illustrate and print that many cards.
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Feb 11, 2021 09:48
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potatocubed posted:There's also the extent to which card-based design in TTRPGs revolves around keeping the number of cards you're going to use nice and low. I originally planned for Unnamed Farming Game to be card-based but when I did some ballpark cost estimates for it I realised that nobody would pay the sort of money necessary to illustrate and print that many cards. Yeah, card illustration is a loving huge outlay even at the bargain basement rates you can find in the TTG industry.
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Feb 11, 2021 10:37
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