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the anprimm thread was great. this thread kinda ballz not gonna lie
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Feb 10, 2021 11:38
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I make things easy for myself since im lazy, im an anarchist at heart, i think socialist policies have a possibility to work in current society and that ends up with me voting for the leftist party every 4 years. But I dont live in a third world hellhole like the states so its a different thing here. If anyone asks me to theory craft a working anarchist or socialist utopia I tell them the truth, that I am way to dumb to be able to do that.
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Feb 10, 2021 12:16
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KomradeX posted:I don't think it's out of the question to compare Marx's idea of Communism and what an Anarchist society would be. The problem is anarchists always want to jump to the end goal Soc-dems say the same about communists though.
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Feb 10, 2021 15:34
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Orange Devil posted:Soc-dems say the same about communists though. Yeah but Soc Dems just want to keep playing the reform capitalism game.
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Feb 10, 2021 15:41
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Goatson posted:This is deeply dishonest. The Russians occupied and annexed the Baltic states against their will, and installed satellite states in post-war Europe that collapsed almost immediately when the Russians weren't there to enforce their rule. wrong! russia, the "prison house of nations" was a hotbed of oppression before the bolsheviks took power. afterwards it got chopped up into a bunch of SSRs and autonomous regions in which state power was marshaled in defense and support of ethnic and national minorities for basically the first time, such that they had representation in the legislature, written alphabets, educational and cultural programs, and so on. national sovereignty in the face of imperialism is the backbone of communist theory and why it was official cpusa doctrine in the '30s that black liberation and autonomy was a prerequisite to socialism in the states calling the GDR an imperial colony is laughable
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Feb 10, 2021 15:44
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Gonna add that at least in Poland the communists won the first 'free' election that was held after the Soviet collapse this is a tremendous thread of emotional anger and repeats of the same arguments that have been made for 100 years. as a student of the annales school it gives tremendous insight into the mentalite of the past and i support it continuing in the same vein forever
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Feb 10, 2021 16:15
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No kidding. I mean, Estonia. Estonia is a prime example of what is my issue here. I know several punk rockers from 90's from the place and none of them treated those jolly Soviets as socialist liberators. They were imperial oppressors always, no matter who was in charge or how they called themselves. To them it has always been "the Russians". You can be a communist and still, you know, admit that history exists. Mao had no problem calling the Soviets an imperialist power maintaining a socialist façade.
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Feb 10, 2021 16:46
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incredible, as many as several punk rockers. i wonder what else was going on at the time that the estonian SSR was established. probably nothing
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Feb 10, 2021 16:54
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Come now comrades. Russian soviet propaganda wasn't THAT good. Think outside the box of limits that is the state.
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Feb 10, 2021 17:24
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imperialism isn't just the bad authoritarians take over your country, it involves specific exploitative economic relations. for example india's gdp, living standards, life expectancy etc all dropped over the course of the british imperial rule of the country because it was designed to loot them my understanding is that the soviet treatment of the GDR was exploitative (war reparations for genocide and massive destruction) till (at least) the 60s, but this wasn't true for the constituent SSRs of the actual soviet union where the economy was built up, not extracted from, and living standards and quality of life were improved.
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Feb 10, 2021 17:25
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Goatson posted:I know several punk rockers
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Feb 10, 2021 17:34
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indigi posted:me too and they all miss communism Oh, are you from Estonia? Has the spirit switched from anarchist to communist? I've always been Vennaskond fan, but my problem is I've never quite grasped the language, lost a translator when my father died.
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Feb 10, 2021 18:11
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Doesn't Estonia have a big problem with loving Nazis? Or is that one of the oddest Baltic states?
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Feb 10, 2021 18:30
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I don't know for certain, but I can tell that almost all European states have been struggling with the emergence of ethno-nationalists and right wing loonies within ten years. Wouldn't surprise me if they, too.
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Feb 10, 2021 18:33
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Goatson posted:This is deeply dishonest. The Russians occupied and annexed the Baltic states against their will, and installed satellite states in post-war Europe that collapsed almost immediately when the Russians weren't there to enforce their rule. drat, what historical event could've possibly led the soviets to occupy the land between them and germany for no reason at all?
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Feb 10, 2021 18:41
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Dreddout posted:drat, what historical event could've possibly led the soviets to occupy the land between them and germany for no reason at all? the molotov-ribbentrop pact?
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Feb 10, 2021 18:43
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The USSR was so imperialist it held a referendum among it's constituent parts that led to it's breakup and dissolution.
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Feb 10, 2021 18:44
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https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/outrage-as-ss-men-hold-anniversary-celebration-in-estonia-552327.html all the baltic states have huge issues with official pro-nazi stances and tallinn isn't the outlier, despite all the outrage that riga got/has been getting for their annual ss parade
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Feb 10, 2021 18:45
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Dreddout posted:drat, what historical event could've possibly led the soviets to occupy the land between them and germany for no reason at all? The Molotov-Ribbentrop pact
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Feb 10, 2021 18:46
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Dreddout posted:The USSR was so imperialist it held a referendum among it's constituent parts that led to it's breakup and dissolution. arguably this one is true, given the consequences
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Feb 10, 2021 18:47
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Badactura posted:the molotov-ribbentrop pact? That's a cute gotcha but really would you have rather the soviets let the nazis occupy all of poland? Because that was the alternative to not playing the realpolitik game.
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Feb 10, 2021 18:48
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a 'lesser evil' if you will
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Feb 10, 2021 18:54
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Zombiepop posted:I make things easy for myself since im lazy, im an anarchist at heart, i think socialist policies have a possibility to work in current society and that ends up with me voting for the leftist party every 4 years. Calling america third world is really insulting to actual third world countries that suffer because of american hegemony. "First world" has nothing to do with living standards and everything to do with your position in the global power structure. In reality america is the definitive first world country and our austerity state serves as the blueprint for where the other first world country's capitalists are planning on dragging you
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Feb 10, 2021 18:56
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to be fair almost no one uses 'first-world'/'third-world' etc with their original meanings in mind. His meaning is clear from the context.
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Feb 10, 2021 18:58
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Kaedric posted:a 'lesser evil' if you will Sadly when a revanchist fascist power rises on your doorstep you have to resolve yourself to lesser evils to defeat it The alternative was laying down and allowing nazi germany ethnically cleansing eastern europe. Do you really wanna die on the hill of that scenario being an equal evil to signing a piece of paper both sides knew was a temporary state of affairs?
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Feb 10, 2021 19:00
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Dreddout posted:Sadly when a revanchist fascist power rises on your doorstep you have to resolve yourself to lesser evils to defeat it nah dude I was just shitposting cause it made me chuckle
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Feb 10, 2021 19:01
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Kaedric posted:to be fair almost no one uses 'first-world'/'third-world' etc with their original meanings in mind. His meaning is clear from the context. I know his meaning and it's still serves as a way for other members of the global north to extradite themselves from America, to pretend as if their country isn't subservient to the US
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Feb 10, 2021 19:01
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Dreddout posted:That's a cute gotcha but really would you have rather the soviets let the nazis occupy all of poland? My grandfather was a Karelian survivor. To him Molotov-Ribbentrop meant either abandoning his home or being purged by the soviets because Karelia and other Ugrian minorities were problematic for the Russians. Please do not play this game yourself.
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Feb 10, 2021 19:01
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Dreddout posted:That's a cute gotcha but really would you have rather the soviets let the nazis occupy all of poland? I wouldn't rather any kind of historical counterfactual because I am not Harry Turtledove
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Feb 10, 2021 19:03
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Stupid nazi-loving Soviets going and signing a pact with Hitler, why didn't they think to forge a pact with France and Britain instead huh?
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Feb 10, 2021 19:05
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Wheeee posted:Stupid nazi-loving Soviets going and signing a pact with Hitler, why didn't they think to forge a pact with France and Britain instead huh? they tried to and got rebuffed. then the brits helpfully carved up pieces of europe for the nazis 
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Feb 10, 2021 19:08
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Feb 10, 2021 19:12
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didn't the Soviets repatriate a bunch of communists to Germany under the terms of the pact
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Feb 10, 2021 20:29
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Pomeroy posted:There's not a whole lot of reading to do, I can sum it up here: This is a well taken point, and with a nights sleep im thankful to everyone for the discussion and sorry i was at times, a dumb
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Feb 10, 2021 21:56
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How many anarchists does it take to change a light bulb who knows, anarchists never changed anything
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Feb 11, 2021 00:17
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I'm ML and have a good faith question for anarchists - tons of anarchist friends but I can't really approach poo poo like this without being called a tankie so The endgame of anarchism is to peacefully coexist alongside/within capital, correct? Are their schools within anarchism that require capitalism to end before a non-hierarchical stateless society becomes possible? Does anarchism project an end to capitalism or prescribe methods to further that end along?
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Feb 11, 2021 00:23
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Deified Data posted:The endgame of anarchism is to peacefully coexist alongside/within capital, correct? Are their schools within anarchism that require capitalism to end before a non-hierarchical stateless society becomes possible? Does anarchism project an end to capitalism or prescribe methods to further that end along? I don’t think all anarchist tendencies have the same “endgame” but even so there are maybe two that want to “coexist peacefully alongside capital” (and one of those is anarchy-capitalism which isn’t really anarchism) (I think the other is anarchism-transhumanism which is just nerd poo poo) the majority of them want to end capitalism, and most of those have at least a sketch of how they’d go about ending it
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Feb 11, 2021 00:28
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awful app shat the bed and made me double post. how dare you
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Feb 11, 2021 00:28
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Deified Data posted:I'm ML and have a good faith question for anarchists - tons of anarchist friends but I can't really approach poo poo like this without being called a tankie so most anarchists texts i've read do actually want or at least expect capitalism's downfall, either by violent revolution as carried through by anarchists teaming up in a big insurrection/war or at its most peaceful down around the ears of anarchists who are prepped and ready to live in a post-capitalist way
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Feb 11, 2021 02:02
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Stinky Wizzleteats posted:This is a well taken point, and with a nights sleep im thankful to everyone for the discussion and sorry i was at times, a dumb No worries
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Feb 11, 2021 03:22
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