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I'd go as far as to say anything that includes capital at all crosses the hard line into Libertarianism the Bread of Anarchism is an unconditional end to all forms of domination and coercion. capitalism cant coexist with that. If you start from the bottom up its a lot easier to extrapolate on what a utopia could eventually look like. there's absolutely no single orthodoxy though. Jellidelic has issued a correction as of 03:56 on Feb 11, 2021 |
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Feb 11, 2021 03:41
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Feb 11, 2021 03:52
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Love a bootman
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Feb 11, 2021 04:07
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Love to go online and quote russian santa clauses at people
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Feb 11, 2021 04:21
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ya bakunin is like a D tier anarchist
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Feb 11, 2021 04:55
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Deified Data posted:I'm ML and have a good faith question for anarchists - tons of anarchist friends but I can't really approach poo poo like this without being called a tankie so None of the leftist school of anarchism want to coexist with capital. They all want it abolished, and only live amongst it in an antagonistic sense. The anarcho-syndicalist branch has one of the better explained methods for speeding along the end of capitalism. That is to organize all the workers to seize the means of production directly. Form a union and fire the boss, then run things democraticly.
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Feb 11, 2021 07:22
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can you imagine how bad an anarchist pandemic response would be? good lord
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Feb 11, 2021 07:31
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Decentralization would probably reduce the chance of there being pandemics at all
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Feb 11, 2021 07:46
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exmarx posted:can you imagine how bad an anarchist pandemic response would be? good lord so like, do people have the mistaken assumption that anarchism means literally no decision making groups, no centralization at all? It's the end of UNJUST hierarchy, not literally all hierarchy.
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Feb 11, 2021 07:50
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because anarchists couldn't figure out how to fly planes or whatever?
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Feb 11, 2021 07:50
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idk jet fuel seems kinda extractivist and domestic air travel is extremely stupid for a lot of reasons
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Feb 11, 2021 07:51
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bubonic plague killed a lot of decentralized people but it took hundreds of years and they didnt have germ theory
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Feb 11, 2021 07:55
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Kaedric posted:so like, do people have the mistaken assumption that anarchism means literally no decision making groups, no centralization at all? It's the end of UNJUST hierarchy, not literally all hierarchy. would the top of the anarchist hierarchy passing an "anarcho law" to stop people leaving their homes for non-essential purposes be unjust in your opinion
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Feb 11, 2021 07:59
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iirc the ELZN did/is doing something like this in response to COVID: a prohibition against people traveling between villages
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Feb 11, 2021 08:00
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Jellidelic posted:I'd go as far as to say anything that includes capital at all crosses the hard line into Libertarianism isn't your self-admitted gameplan to scrape out a slightly less miserable existence under capitalism while waiting for third-world people to come save you?
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Feb 11, 2021 08:04
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Ferrinus posted:iirc the ELZN did/is doing something like this in response to COVID: a prohibition against people traveling between villages not to open the "are the zapatistas anarchist" can of worms, but the ezln isn't anarchist
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Feb 11, 2021 08:05
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exmarx posted:would the top of the anarchist hierarchy passing an "anarcho law" to stop people leaving their homes for non-essential purposes be unjust in your opinion without a state-financial complex that has every motivation to extract as much value from people as they can get away with, there wouldn't be anything competing with the priority of keeping everybody safe and healthy.
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Feb 11, 2021 08:05
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exmarx posted:would the top of the anarchist hierarchy passing an "anarcho law" to stop people leaving their homes for non-essential purposes be unjust in your opinion is that how you think 'anarcho laws' would be passed or come into being?
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Feb 11, 2021 08:11
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exmarx posted:not to open the "are the zapatistas anarchist" can of worms, but the ezln isn't anarchist oh, i agree. a lot of anarchists claim them as a working model or at least something gesturing at that model, though, and i bet would get behind the enforcement of a "no traveling between villages" or even a "no leaving your home" model so long as it was done by the community after democratic deliberation or something
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Feb 11, 2021 08:12
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Jellidelic posted:without a state-financial complex that has every motivation to extract as much value from people as they can get away with, there wouldn't be anything competing with the priority of keeping everybody safe and healthy. you know what would be even better? a centrally organized effort to keep everyone safe and healthy backed by the means to enforce compliance.
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Feb 11, 2021 08:15
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Jellidelic posted:without a state-financial complex that has every motivation to extract as much value from people as they can get away with, there wouldn't be anything competing with the priority of keeping everybody safe and healthy. what if i just want to go to my friend's house Ferrinus posted:oh, i agree. a lot of anarchists claim them as a working model or at least something gesturing at that model, though, and i bet would get behind the enforcement of a "no traveling between villages" or even a "no leaving your home" model so long as it was done by the community after democratic deliberation or something yeah, i suppose it's just that once you're dealing with the required amount of organised, multi-level decision-making that's totally abstracted from the views of individuals on the ground... it's hard to make the distinction between that and 'a state'???
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Feb 11, 2021 08:25
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exmarx posted:yeah, i suppose it's just that once you're dealing with the required amount of organised, multi-level decision-making that's totally abstracted from the views of individuals on the ground... it's hard to make the distinction between that and 'a state'??? 
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Feb 11, 2021 08:30
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bvj191jgl7bBsqF5m posted:The good anarchist bands: Chumbawumba, Crass this is aestheticizing politics, it's fascism. all music is communist even if it doesn't know it.
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Feb 11, 2021 08:30
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splifyphus posted:this is aestheticizing politics, it's fascism. Courtesy of the Red, White and Blue is my favorite communist anthem
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Feb 11, 2021 08:33
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exmarx posted:yeah, i suppose it's just that once you're dealing with the required amount of organised, multi-level decision-making that's totally abstracted from the views of individuals on the ground... it's hard to make the distinction between that and 'a state'??? to give this a more serious answer, statelessness is actually the communist horizon, since communists understand a "state" as specifically a machine for making sure that one class dominates another. however, state isn't the same thing as government, and at a large enough scale government is going to involve delegated decision-making, the centralization of power, and the judicious wielding of coercive forces just for stuff like keeping the lights on and crops growing. so you could just repaste my image above but have it read "anarchist government" and basically retain the joke
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Feb 11, 2021 08:35
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Ferrinus posted:to give this a more serious answer, statelessness is actually the communist horizon, since communists understand a "state" as specifically a machine for making sure that one class dominates another. however, state isn't the same thing as government, and at a large enough scale government is going to involve delegated decision-making, the centralization of power, and the judicious wielding of coercive forces just for stuff like keeping the lights on and crops growing. so you could just repaste my image above but have it read "anarchist government" and basically retain the joke i used it to mean 'a society under the purview of a government' rather than the formulation they currently exist in, but w/e. it's a good image macro!
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Feb 11, 2021 08:46
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this is how ive been approaching covid... anarchistly failure to keep people safe when you know the risks and safety protocols qualifies as violence. walking around and interacting with a large group, where everybody hasnt expressly consented to that risk, is a violent behavior. knowingly having covid and interacting with people carelessly even more violent. so from there you're expected to react to people engaging in risky covid behavior the way you would react to any violence: intervene and deescelate. it is oka to demand somebody wear a mask and social distance (and isolate if theyre infected) because you are protecting yourself and others from violence.
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Feb 11, 2021 08:57
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Jellidelic posted:this is how ive been approaching covid... anarchistly and what exactly do you do when they tell you to go gently caress yourself because muh freedoms?
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Feb 11, 2021 09:13
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Deified Data posted:The endgame of anarchism is to peacefully coexist alongside/within capital, correct? lol what no? Anarchists are socialist my dude
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Feb 11, 2021 10:19
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Cerebral Bore posted:and what exactly do you do when they tell you to go gently caress yourself because muh freedoms? you expel them from your community, in a worldwide pandemic this would probably involve putting them on an island somewhere, which is different from prison because
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Feb 11, 2021 12:39
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thotsky posted:you expel them from your community, in a worldwide pandemic this would probably involve putting them on an island somewhere, which is different from prison because and lemme guess, if they're unwilling to go you send an armed posse to drive them out, which is different from cops because
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Feb 11, 2021 13:03
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exmarx posted:not to open the "are the zapatistas anarchist" can of worms, but the ezln isn't anarchist their praxis is overwhelmingly anarchist Cerebral Bore posted:and what exactly do you do when they tell you to go gently caress yourself because muh freedoms? ezln maintains a prison, they just very rarely need to use it because they replaced their policing and justice system with a democratic process focused on rehabilitation not retribution. they maintain community police but the key is it is very easy to recall any members of that community police if any infractions mount, and the police is not militarised. they used jail as punishment on some recidivist weed growers a decade ago, as making any inebriants is prohibited in ezln as voted into law by the entire population. there isn't "muh freedoms" in anarchy because there are rules, they just come from the population, not the governor or the capitalist. this is how ezln essentially introduced 'no moving across villages' despite not having what anarchist theory calls a State; the populations agreed it was to the betterment of the entire community.
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Feb 11, 2021 13:18
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dex_sda posted:ezln maintains a prison, they just very rarely need to use it because they replaced their policing and justice system with a democratic process focused on rehabilitation not retribution. they maintain community police but the key is it is very easy to recall any members of that community police if any infractions mount, and the police is not militarised. sounds like a state to me
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Feb 11, 2021 13:28
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Jellidelic posted:this is how ive been approaching covid... anarchistly this is just a way to rationalize why the ends justify the means... but deontologistly
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Feb 11, 2021 13:36
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Cerebral Bore posted:sounds like a state to me it's a method of governance, yes. 'state' has a specific meaning in anarchist theory. if you're gonna play the "heheh sounds all the same to me" card by all means do so, but it just makes you look terrible at theory. hell, even Engels argued for statelessness as final goal where state is defined in the way anarchists define it so you don't even need to sully your brain with more theory if you're ML.
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Feb 11, 2021 13:40
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ultimately, the end theoretical goal of anarchism is the exact same as MLs; anarchists simply think the capabilities of the state to coerce and control the population need to be diminished or eliminated from the start. there are certainly anarkiddies who take that to mean you should completely remove all forms of governance, but that is a minority, just particularly visible online - exactly like bloodthirsty tankies are particularly visible online and are not representative of most communists. in that way, while EZLN is not wholly anarchist because they do make some compromises, their praxis is aimed at empowering an individual's ability to join others to create a society, with methods of coercion and control either removed or inverted to be in the hands of the population. even their army is an inverted structure ridiculously beholden to individual members of the population. if you want to be obtuse you could continue calling that a state, but again, state has a specific meaning in all socialist theory and EZLN's governance is completely different, only superficially performing a similar function. you could call their methods of crime prevention police, but it bears no resemblance to the police controlled by a state and has no ability to repress members of the populace, it just performs a similar function in a wholly different way. dex_sda has issued a correction as of 14:00 on Feb 11, 2021 |
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Feb 11, 2021 13:57
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dex_sda posted:it's a method of governance, yes. 'state' has a specific meaning in anarchist theory. if you're gonna play the "heheh sounds all the same to me" card by all means do so, but it just makes you look terrible at theory. what you described is a polity that claims jurisdiction over a defined area, maintains a monopoly of force and utilizes at least the threat of coercive force to force its inhabitants to follow the common rules. furthermore it also seems to wield its power as an instrument of class dominance, so by any reasonable definition it is, in fact, a state, and just because they practice a bottom-up power structure doesn't make it any less of one also given that global capitalism is in fact not abolished we're pretty clearly not in a state of affairs where material circumstances would allow the state to wither away so you namedropping engels is lust lolworthy
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Feb 11, 2021 14:10
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once again anarchists end up reinventing the state, calling it something different and then getting extremely mad when called out on it
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Feb 11, 2021 14:11
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Cerebral Bore posted:what you described is a polity that claims jurisdiction over a defined area, maintains a monopoly of force and utilizes at least the threat of coercive force to force its inhabitants to follow the common rules. furthermore it also seems to wield its power as an instrument of class dominance, so by any reasonable definition it is, in fact, a state, and just because they practice a bottom-up system of doesn't make it any less of one It has no monopoly of force, is the thing. A single civilian can strip any member of the army of all privileges, instantly, making it ineffective at actually coercing anyone. It exists to quash external threats. And the community police is chosen by individual units; is not militarised, and can be recalled by the population. all the laws are made by the population, and the community police only enforces things in individual communities, just with some laws shared between multiple locations. the bottom-up system with ownership of means of production and without coercion is in fact the very thing Engels argues for in his 'statelessness.' words mean things, especially in leftist theory very deliberate things. ignoring nuance is lib brained as hell. e; fwiw i agree it's the utopian view, which is precisely why zapatistas need to make some compromises. but it doesn't change the fact that their government is very different from regular governments, is socialist, actually classless, and bears way more resemblance to anarchist conceptions than vanguardism. dex_sda has issued a correction as of 14:20 on Feb 11, 2021 |
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Feb 11, 2021 14:14
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dex_sda posted:It has no monopoly of force, is the thing. A single civilian can strip any member of the army of all privileges, instantly, making it ineffective at actually coercing anyone. It exists to quash external threats. And the community police is chosen by individual units; is not militarised, and can be recalled by the population. all the laws are made by the population. the bottom-up system with ownership of means of production and without coercion is in fact the very thing Engels argues for in his 'statelessness.' i'm pretty loving sure that if the chips are down and the army needs to roll out they wouldn't give a single gently caress if one civilian tried to stop the whole thing if not then congrats, your system ultimately lives and dies entirely at the mercy of global capital if they can just bribe one guy to tell the army to lay down its guns once the counterrevolution rolls in and so we once again get back to the fact that anarchism either ends up recreating the state or falling apart under its own contradictions because guess loving what? the preconditions for successfully abolishing the state are not here yet
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Feb 11, 2021 14:20
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