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Once everyone on telly has been vaccinated they'd be stupid not to open back up. Like not in a scientific or moral sense but personally sure why not? What are people gonna do about it?
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Feb 12, 2021 21:02
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mortons stork posted:it is truly astonishing. where is labour. where is literally any opposition, it's mad https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1360268197451202564?s=20
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Feb 12, 2021 21:03
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Something I'm curious as a yank, why is it that y'alls conservative party always seems to have done better with women when it's the reverse in the USA? Is it Labour's legacy of... like... "oi mates, we're for the people who work in coal mines and lift heavy things in stoic manly labor all day" or is there something else going on? I dont think it's TERFism or Thatcher cause IIRC the trend goes back before either of them
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Feb 12, 2021 21:37
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Vlonald Prump posted:Something I'm curious as a yank, why is it that y'alls conservative party always seems to have done better with women when it's the reverse in the USA? Is it Labour's legacy of... like... "oi mates, we're for the people who work in coal mines and lift heavy things in stoic manly labor all day" or is there something else going on? I dont think it's TERFism or Thatcher cause IIRC the trend goes back before either of them It goes back to childhood: Tory men like strong women. They remind them of Nanny in the nursery. But seriously, I think there is a residue of old-fashioned men in the the labour party. Certainly, when I was in the party (2016-2020) our particular CLP was very 'woman-friendly' in that we had women officers, women not afraid to speak in meetings. I was informed by women of wider experience across Wales (where I am), this is certainly not the case, and women are quite often afraid to open their mouths at meetings and if they do, get talked over by men. When I was in the party 1980s-2000 it was in London so it's mostly different there. Labour did have Barbara Castle back in the 1970s and she was the first woman to ever become First Secretary and held a number of Cabinet positions at the time. Jaeluni Asjil has issued a correction as of 21:47 on Feb 12, 2021 |
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Feb 12, 2021 21:41
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Jaeluni Asjil posted:But seriously, I think there is a residue of old-fashioned men in the the labour party. Certainly, when I was in the party (2016-2020) our particular CLP was very 'woman-friendly' in that we had women officers, women not afraid to speak in meetings. I was informed by women of wider experience across Wales (where I am), this is certainly not the case, and women are quite often afraid to open their mouths at meetings and if they do, get talked over by men. When I was in the party 1980s-2000 it was in London so it's mostly different there. That's probably even worse in Conservative Party groups, it's not necessarily relevant to why the voting pattern is different. Trade union legacy probably does have something to do with it, until the feminist movement and neoliberal politics forced the double oppression of women back into political consciousness and the Labour Party shed its historical perspective of being the party of labour to being third way all-politics then there was just less appealing to politically conscious women compared to the patriarchal Tories.
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Feb 12, 2021 21:55
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namesake posted:That's probably even worse in Conservative Party groups, it's not necessarily relevant to why the voting pattern is different. Could also be because the traditional Labour working-class base, women worked long, hard hours in factories or other labour-intensive work and also had the majority of household domestic work and childcare too, leaving little time and energy for politics or education post-age 14/15 (school leaving age only went up to 16 in the 1970s, many kids left with no qualifications before then. I remember in the 1970s the big thing was 'ROSLA' pupils - what to do with all those Raising of the School Leaving Age kids who would previously have left school before O-levels (CSEs were quite a new thing then - this is all pre-GCSE). Middle class and upper class women may have had more domestic help, better education and so forth, and either not worked out of the home or had less physically demanding jobs. These are my speculations based on my memories from 60s/70s and the lives of my grandparents who were born in 1910/11 - one set worked in factories, the other set - grandad worked in a foundry and died of lung disease at a young age and his widow, my nan, had to work very long hard hours doing cleaning for people, sitting late into the night sewing clothes for people - she had been a seamstress in her teens/20s - I haven't researched it.
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Feb 12, 2021 22:10
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ive crunched the numbers and the british are just a small people- little right wing pain piggies high on the shittiest myth of a brutal half imagined past who crave the boots of their betters
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Feb 12, 2021 22:10
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I guess the religious right not being a big thing on y'alls side of the pond probably also has something to do with it I'm wondering if there's something to the idea that the Tories are seen as representing white collar interests and Labour purely blue collar interests while the US Dems are increasingly the "pan-urban" party irrespective of profession
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Feb 12, 2021 22:12
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gonadic io posted:I wonder what their plan is if future vaccination rounds are needed. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owI7DOeO_yg redleader has issued a correction as of 22:16 on Feb 12, 2021 |
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Feb 12, 2021 22:13
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Vlonald Prump posted:I guess the religious right not being a big thing on y'alls side of the pond probably also has something to do with it That's definitely not the perception and not really the voting base for Labour or the Tories. Tory voters are middle class and retired of any strip but voters with higher educational without proportional incomes go to Labour. Labour is attacked for being the party of lefty students and benefit scroungers while the Tories pretend to be for the regular office worker and small business person. Brexit added a whole new political aspect to party perception but didn't actually mean much change in what the Tories did, although the influence on Labour did piss off a lot of people.
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Feb 12, 2021 22:25
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Vlonald Prump posted:I guess the religious right not being a big thing on y'alls side of the pond probably also has something to do with it I don't think that's it anymore. God alone knows why - I can't fathom it - tories seem to me to be thought by many of the 'forgotten white working class men' to represent 'the common working person - the downtrodden and forgotten white working class man' and also the ultra wealthy. Labour are seen to be more 'Islington chattering classes' (Islington is an area of London which has many faces - from very wealthy to some of the most poverty stricken parts of the UK - Corbyn's constituency of Islington North is one of the poorer parts.) Labour is seen to be far too interested in gender and identity politics and 'luvvies'. People unfamiliar with London's patchwork blanket of poverty and wealth use 'Islington' as shorthand for well-off bankers, IT workers, buy-to-let owners, able to buy Starbucks and Pret-a-Manger every day (the 'avocado toast and croissants' set).
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Feb 12, 2021 22:26
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Tory/Labour is mosty an age difference and women have higher life expectancy?
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Feb 12, 2021 22:31
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genericnick posted:Tory/Labour is mosty an age difference and women have higher life expectancy? Nah older British men are also poo poo.
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Feb 12, 2021 22:36
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women are more likely to be public sector workers on a fixed salary, men are more likely to be private sector workers subject to negotiated salary and less perceived stability. that means that men have a coerced private-sector interest (you want the business to do well so they're less squeezed in negotiations) whereas women, relatively speaking, don't back in the day, women were much more homebound and had a greater proportion of housewives, who are a bedrock of social conservativism for a great number of reasons, some of which are obvious and others less so. in the US case there's a lot of insane culture war weirdness going on, and a total war on social stabilitywelfare and security will be a problem for groups interested in stability (public sector employees and housewives both having this interest)
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Feb 12, 2021 22:38
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my guess would be that the recent swing gender-wise is reflected in this - it's a period of instability, and so you want to avoid changing horses midstream. it's sort of a bush 2004 effect imo
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Feb 12, 2021 22:41
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Jaeluni Asjil posted:Islington hello I live here and last week under the cover of night somebody left an impressively girthy turd smeared across the buttons on the ground floor intercom to my apartment block, and then tagged the wall next to it. Islington elite! 
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Feb 12, 2021 22:52
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pasokification speed run baby https://twitter.com/LeftieStats/status/1360290656938315783
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Feb 12, 2021 23:09
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PawParole posted:pasokification speed run baby This needs a little more analysis I think- the collapse of UKIP but most other parties holding their vote share is very weird. UKIP voters either became non voters or Tories before now so may be they really really just wanted Brexit and have stopped caring but the overall situation is very different.
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Feb 12, 2021 23:16
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namesake posted:This needs a little more analysis I think- the collapse of UKIP but most other parties holding their vote share is very weird. UKIP voters either became non voters or Tories before now so may be they really really just wanted Brexit and have stopped caring but the overall situation is very different.
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Feb 12, 2021 23:36
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Based on that poll, they've freed themselves from the EU, and now wish to free themselves from urbanity. I'd say some would agree with that but would have very different ideas about what the word 'urbanity' means.
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Feb 13, 2021 00:08
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labour is also whiter than the tories as far as high profile people go
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Feb 13, 2021 01:09
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The Tories do have a type of meritocracy where they allow the biggest and most effective psycho to float to the top, because deep down they do respect power and personal ambition. Whereas Labour have always been more fixed on external perceptions and have a fair constituency of members who will never not vote for a white man because that's what's 'electable'
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Feb 13, 2021 01:25
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PawParole posted:pasokification speed run baby #LibDemFightback
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Feb 13, 2021 01:31
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PawParole posted:pasokification speed run baby most of the people saying the polls are wrong are saying Labour is embracing Trans community has turned off women. Also when people counter this bullshit, they just say too many antisemites, and yeah. Labour is hosed.
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Feb 13, 2021 01:32
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Vlonald Prump posted:Something I'm curious as a yank, why is it that y'alls conservative party always seems to have done better with women when it's the reverse in the USA? Is it Labour's legacy of... like... "oi mates, we're for the people who work in coal mines and lift heavy things in stoic manly labor all day" or is there something else going on? I dont think it's TERFism or Thatcher cause IIRC the trend goes back before either of them labour is pretty much a boys club, every time theres an "important" leadership election - which is basically every one of them, the women get muscled aside by comparison the tories have now had two women prime ministers, its extremely embarassing for labour and we're gonna see rishi or patel be PM before labour ever nominates someone who isnt a white guy imo e: the tories i guess institutionally have more practice at being lead by women at this point too, its part of their party culture now and isnt yet for labour Communist Thoughts has issued a correction as of 01:45 on Feb 13, 2021 |
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Feb 13, 2021 01:43
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https://twitter.com/AaronBastani/status/1360263937795710986?s=20 LABOUR collapsing
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Feb 13, 2021 03:39
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is starmer going to be sacked after labour eats poo poo or no
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Feb 13, 2021 03:49
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Lol Labour expects me to vote for Starmer. After what they did to the jam man. Get hosed
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Feb 13, 2021 03:54
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Alan_Shore posted:Lol Labour expects me to vote for Starmer. After what they did to the jam man. Get hosed
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Feb 13, 2021 04:55
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Communist Thoughts posted:labour is pretty much a boys club, every time theres an "important" leadership election - which is basically every one of them, the women get muscled aside Still, the fact that the first female Tory PM happened literally so long ago that women born back then can reasonably run for leadership and yet none have won is kinda nuts, ignoring whatever happens outside the UK. Maybe the whole "The Labour right is for people without the connections to be (lazy) Tories" is what does it. The Tories can be confident in their position in the social hierarchy, so they'll allow the women and minorities to rise up through the ranks of the party if they possess what Tories consider talent, but the Labour right just tries to keep the field as small as possible to ensure less stiff competition.
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Feb 13, 2021 07:26
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Lemonde diplomatique has an article out on Labour, i subscribed and reposted it here, because the paywall is unbreakable. Keir Starmer’s retreat The current Labour leader was to unite a divided party which lost heavily in the 2019 general election, to provide a convincing alternative to Boris Johnson. With economic policy diluted and the party’s left silenced, that hasn’t happened. In the first line of the first song on Sir Keir Starmer’s favourite album, Orange Juice’s You Can’t Hide Your Love Forever, Edwyn Collins sings, ‘You must think me very naďve. Taken as true — I only see what I want to see.’ The last year, in which Starmer’s hugely successful bid for the Labour Party leadership turned into a campaign to purge much of his own support, has been a case study in the uses of naivety. In his leadership bid at the start of 2020, Starmer offered the majority of Labour’s membership almost everything they wanted: as supporters of Jeremy Corbyn, most had shared in the rollercoaster ride from the party’s high showing in the June 2017 general election to its humiliating defeat in December 2019, with the Conservatives helped in the media by Labour defectors. Starmer offered them a platform of ‘Ten Pledges’, the social-democratic core of Corbynism: the renationalisation of the railways and utilities, a Green New Deal, the abolition of tuition fees, rent control and a social housing programme. But these would now be advocated not by an eccentric anti-imperialist but an establishment figure: founder of a human rights law chambers, a knighted Queen’s Counsel and former Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP). This could then unify the party and create a powerful electoral machine that would win the next election. This appeal saw off, with immense ease, a cowed leftwing campaign from Rebecca Long-Bailey and an increasingly rightwing one from Lisa Nandy. Starmer won the votes of around half of those who had backed Corbyn in the internal elections of 2015 and 2016. Significant Corbynite figures, such as Momentum founder Laura Parker and Corbyn’s campaign director Simon Fletcher, publicly backed Starmer. Labour's general secretary, David Evans, suspended Corbyn's membership within hours, but the grounds were unclear: for claiming the antisemitic incidents were themselves overstated, or for bringing the party into disrepute? Nine months later, Starmer was apparently staking his leadership on not allowing Corbyn even to sit as a Labour MP. The agenda that brought Starmer to power had been shredded. It was obvious even at the time that at least some of Starmer’s strategy was manipulative. During the leadership hustings on 18 January 2020 in Liverpool, the most leftwing city in Britain, Starmer declared that he wouldn’t speak to Rupert Murdoch’s Sun newspaper. This was welcomed by the city’s Labour base, which had boycotted the paper since its biased coverage of the Hillsborough disaster in 1989 (1). The same evening, he strongly implied to journalist Ayesha Hazarika that he would speak to the Sun as leader. His first campaign video, soon after Labour’s defeat in 2019, presented him as a foot soldier in the battles of the 1980s and early 1990s, when older leftwing members cut their political teeth. There was grainy footage of struggles he had been involved in, like the print unions’ strike against Rupert Murdoch in 1986 and the McLibel trial of two animal rights activists against McDonalds in the 1990s; his opposition to the 2003 war in Iraq was also showcased. But after that there was nothing, especially post-2008, when Starmer went from liberal human rights lawyer to DPP, ruled on criminal prosecutions in England and Wales and in some cases took harsh, illiberal decisions. Party for Remain, voters for Leave He was elected MP for a safe London seat in 2015, and in 2016 became shadow Brexit secretary in a party whose membership is largely made up of Remainers, but whose voters in the North of England were often strong Leavers, as shown in the 2019 election. Partly as a result of Starmer’s stand, Labour went into the general election advocating a second referendum on leaving the EU. Once leader, he dropped this demand. So is all of this merely an example of duplicity, someone who is primarily interested in power for its own sake? That depends in part on one’s interpretation of Labour’s continual internal battle over antisemitism allegations. The antisemitism scandal played little part in Starmer’s leadership campaign; at a hustings held by the affiliated Jewish Labour Movement, Long-Bailey and Nandy improbably declared themselves to be Zionists, while Starmer refused to do so. But his first statement as leader mentioned only the issues of the pandemic and the ‘stain’ of antisemitism (2). Both have defined his leadership. He has mostly kept to his early policy of refusing to criticise the government for its handling of the pandemic (it has vied with that of Belgium as the worst in Europe), occasionally threatening to put the government ‘on notice’ when it has become too obviously delinquent. Since his criticism of the government has been muted, his attacks on the left seem all the more conspicuous. The first, in June, was the dismissal of Rebecca Long-Bailey as shadow education secretary for sharing on Twitter a newspaper interview by actor Maxine Peake in which she ascribed the knee-on-neck technique used by Minneapolis police on George Floyd to their training by Israel’s secret services (3); Peake subsequently repudiated the claim, which appeared in an article mostly devoted to her support for Labour. Starmer, who had declared a ‘zero-tolerance’ policy on antisemitism, sacked Long-Bailey within hours for ‘sharing an antisemitic conspiracy theory’, despite her offer of a public retraction. Starmer, like all candidates, had agreed to a list of pledges from the Board of Deputies of British Jews and promised to dismiss anyone accused of antisemitism, no matter how questionable the allegation. However, this was not extended to allies in the parliamentary Labour Party such as Steve Reed, accused of making antisemitic comments about the tycoon Richard Desmond, or Rachel Reeves, who has been criticised for her repeated praise of pro-Nazi interwar MP Nancy Astor. After Long-Bailey’s dismissal, sources in the Labour leadership briefed journalists that she had clashed with Starmer over her strong support for teachers’ unions, which were then resisting proposals to reopen schools closed by the pandemic. Antisemitism crisis escalates The situation escalated with Corbyn’s suspension in October after the long-awaited Equalities and Human Rights Commission (EHRC) report on antisemitism in the party. An internal report that the Corbyn leadership had intended to submit to the EHRC had earlier been leaked to the press; the document argued, on the hard evidence of staffers’ WhatsApp conversations and emails, that many of those Labour staffers who had claimed to be the greatest opponents of antisemitism had been the least concerned with doing anything about complaints. The EHRC corroborated some of this, but its major findings were that Labour had acted unlawfully, through the active antisemitism of former London mayor Ken Livingstone and a Lancashire councillor; through the leadership intervening in the complaints process to block an investigation into Corbyn’s Facebook comment on a London mural featuring antisemitic caricatures, and, later, to speed up Livingstone’s expulsion; and through failing to train staffers properly to handle antisemitism cases. These criticisms gained widespread acceptance in the party, including from the left. Though the report was grim, the EHRC did not back up any of the wilder claims it provoked in the press, such as that Corbyn was an ‘existential threat’ for Jewish people; these reached a nadir when Conservative commentator Simon Heffer claimed on LBC radio on 10 July 2019 that Corbyn would ‘reopen Auschwitz’. Unsurprisingly, though tactlessly, Corbyn claimed in a statement generally welcoming the report’s findings that the ‘scale of the problem had been ‘dramatically overstated’ by ‘our opponents inside and outside the party’ and by ‘the media’ (4). Starmer would surely agree, unless we are to conclude that he served in the shadow cabinet of a politician who was an existential threat to British Jews. Labour’s general secretary, David Evans, suspended Corbyn’s membership within hours, but the grounds were unclear. Was it for claiming that the antisemitic incidents were themselves overstated, or for bringing the party into disrepute? Evans’s ineptitude was compounded when a panel of Labour’s National Executive Committee (NEC), representing all wings of the party, unanimously reinstated him. Corbyn is again a Labour member, but cannot sit as a Labour MP. Move to ban discussion Dozens of groups affiliated to Labour, notably local constituency Labour parties (CLPs), large trade unions and Labour’s youth wing, have issued statements supporting Corbyn. In response, Evans has moved to ban discussion of the matter and suspend CLPs. This has led some unions to consider disaffiliation from Labour, a response which Tony Blair’s leadership took years to elicit. Given the wide support for the EHRC report’s findings, the question is not its acceptance, but whether branding all opposition to this purge as implicitly antisemitic is a hindrance, not a help, to the report’s implementation. What would party unity entail? An internal report into the 2019 election disaster, ‘Labour Together’, suggested points of agreement: greater emphasis on professionalism and patriotism to reassure the right, and enough emphasis on community organising and a leftwing economic programme to keep on board young socialists in organisations like Momentum and The World Transformed. The leadership’s interpretation of the report seemed simple: defer to the Tories on law and order and nationalism, and retain the centre-left economic line represented by shadow chancellor Anneliese Dodds, formerly part of John McDonnell’s shadow Treasury team under Corbyn. But given the government’s state-guaranteed incomes and sharp public spending increases in response to the pandemic, it is getting harder to spot the differences in economic policy. It is the decision to drop everything but a mild version of Labour’s economic line that has caused the largest splits in the party under Starmer. He has criticised the government’s chaotic outsourcing of a Covid-19 test and trace system to logistics corporations, and can claim that mild pressure from Dodds provoked some of chancellor Rishi Sunak’s more progressive measures, yet while Labour still plans to renationalise the railways, its positions on housing and the Green New Deal have already been significantly diluted. Starmer’s dismissive approach Other actions have contributed to the discontent. Starmer displayed a dismissive approach to Britain’s Black Lives Matter protests, when he praised the police and referred to the events as a ‘moment’; he later said he regretted that statement and took ‘unconscious bias training’ (5). That same approach was also clear in the lack of response to a report by the Labour Muslim Network into a culture of Islamophobia in the party. Most of the very few socialists in Starmer’s shadow cabinet resigned after voting against a government bill on overseas operations that would allow crimes committed by British forces to remain unpunished, and another on covert human intelligence sources that would block prosecution of members of the secret services for acts committed while spying. The official Labour line on both was abstention, a remarkable position given Starmer’s background as one of Britain’s most prominent human rights lawyers. Labour’s current confrontation with the left is based upon the mostly correct precept that divided parties don’t win elections. Boris Johnson proved that when he became Conservative leader, by immediately purging the pro-Remain wing of his party and proroguing parliament. In word and deed, he proved there was one policy, overwhelming all others, ‘Get Brexit Done’. Starmer might well be thinking similarly, but there is no clarity as to what this reshaped, cleansed Labour Party will stand for. So far, it has been a mildly critical adjunct of the government. It proposes to demobilise its canvassers, drive out its most committed activists and alienate the trade unions, for a still undefined purpose, under a leader whose politics appear utterly gaseous: a human rights lawyer who enforces abstention from votes on war crimes; a Remainer who now backs Brexit; a unity candidate who has begun a purge. The polls have been unimpressive, but these shifts have been applauded in the media. Starmer’s real naivety may be a belief that this benediction will be enough to win him power.
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Feb 13, 2021 07:45
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Thanks for bolding the funny parts
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Feb 13, 2021 11:59
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A Buttery Pastry posted:It is kind of extra embarrassing, given that presumably their voters are more attentive to what happens outside the UK, whether out of some internationalist outlook, pro-EU sympathies, or (recent or not) ancestry outside the UK. Having had (elected) female heads of government/state isn't the rule or anything, but like, the country where the largest ethnic minority in Britain came from had one more than five decades ago, one of Labour's own is literally married to a former head of government, and of course there's currently six of them in the EU, one of them being very prominent and basically seen as the ruler of the EU (for good and bad). Hell, you have the PM of New Zealand making the news repeatedly in a very positive fashion too, and even the Americans managed to nominate a woman for the presidency. It's also cos the trade unions have always been run by sexist shites and Labour is half right wing shits and half big trade union shits. Then a bunch of left wing members banging on the windows
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Feb 13, 2021 12:35
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Dravs posted:Thanks for bolding the funny parts It's a good article. Apparently getting paid for writing doesn't rot your brain if you do it about a foreign country and behind a paywall. PawParole posted:In word and deed, he proved there was one policy, overwhelming all others, ‘Get Brexit Done’.
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Feb 13, 2021 12:39
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lol https://twitter.com/flying_rodent/status/1360545763454025731?s=20
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Feb 13, 2021 12:55
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Alan_Shore posted:Lol Labour expects me to vote for Starmer. After what they did to the jam man. Get hosed
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Feb 13, 2021 12:57
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in labour's specific case, the only leadership contest since blair that hasn't basically been a coronation after a certain point was the 2010 miliband brother's war, and those two had been building their support for a long time corbyn was the only one offering a clear way forward in 2015, and starmer was always the front-runner in 2020. the labour left had been trying to build up laura pidcock, but she got ousted and the by all accounts less impressive RLB ended up getting trounced by starmer, who was the man of the hour of despair my point being, yes labour has clearly had a problem with fostering leadership-grade female or BAME candidates for various reasons, but from where i'm sitting the actual leadership elections seem to have been decided on ideological grounds, not because of misogyny in the electoral process now, why labour's had such a hard time producing leadership-grade non-white-bloke candidates is a different question, and i'd speculate there that anxieties about electability and a desire to appeal to tradition (since they're by default suspect there and the tories aren't, they have to worry a lot more about it) absolutely play a part. might see sadiq khan do a successful leadership bid from a soft-right position in the foreseeable future, but i can't see any other obvious candidates to break the dread straight-white-man hold on power
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Feb 13, 2021 13:30
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good lord, tories propose making covid into a bioweapon for the poor of all the world and all keith does is shuffle around on the floor like the worm he is
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Feb 13, 2021 13:31
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it does help to remember that sunak is inconceivably wealthy and that patel is a straight-up psycho racist when considering how they got where they are in the tory party, though. modern racism is more than sophisticated enough to accept someone with a foreign name and relatively dark skin so long as they are willing to espouse the right policy - indeed, that specific combination us great for them since they can point to it and say 'hey we aren't actually racist you're racist for demanding loyalty from minority people!', which they really want to do because racism being Actually Bad is still an axiom of western politics that nobody wants to explicitly challenge
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Feb 13, 2021 13:36
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V. Illych L. posted:in labour's specific case, the only leadership contest since blair that hasn't basically been a coronation after a certain point was the 2010 miliband brother's war, and those two had been building their support for a long time My CLP had a guy in the leadership hustings say 'we can't put a woman up against Johnson', and the chair sputtered but said nothing. Starmer then won the vote. Coincidentally, our female membership is in free-fall at the moment.
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Feb 13, 2021 13:54
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