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lol https://twitter.com/thetimes/status/1360558614470156293?s=20
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Feb 13, 2021 13:21
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Jakabite posted:Given that we are not getting to a point when COVID is eliminated entirely any time soon, when do perma-lockdown goons want to start looking at opening up? Like honestly quite a few of you seem to be perfectly happy and find ridiculous the idea that anyone might at some point in the near future want to resume something like normal life. And yes, sorry to say it, but the vast majority of people including me understand that opening up will mean some deaths that wouldn’t happen if we stayed in lockdown until next year. To the vast majority that’s a price worth paying. I’m not saying open up now obviously, but there comes a point when you have to and the fact that that means that some people will die is just the nature of viruses. This seems almost unbelievable selfish though? Like "You should be okay dying for things to be normal again" is something that only villains think, it is something that if you said out loud makes you sound like a loving super villain. We could though, couldn't we? There is nothing stopping us from checking folks at the airport and making sure that they don't have it. It's just that people in charge don't want to. You seem more eager for people to reconcile themselves with the world than accept the idea that the world should be reconciled to people. Why? TBH there should be vaccines and more stuff put in place to make sure no-one gets anything, and then we can start re-opening stuff. However I think that staying in lockdown as long as necessary might actually be a good shout. Lock down is loving awful, but I'd sooner inconvenience myself horribly like this. If I were in a different situation I may well disagree, and I do not mean this to be a moral judgement. But it does need looking at at least a bit. Josef bugman fucked around with this message at 13:25 on Feb 13, 2021 |
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Feb 13, 2021 13:21
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Jakabite posted:Given that we are not getting to a point when COVID is eliminated entirely any time soon, when do perma-lockdown goons want to start looking at opening up? Like honestly quite a few of you seem to be perfectly happy and find ridiculous the idea that anyone might at some point in the near future want to resume something like normal life. And yes, sorry to say it, but the vast majority of people including me understand that opening up will mean some deaths that wouldn’t happen if we stayed in lockdown until next year. To the vast majority that’s a price worth paying. I’m not saying open up now obviously, but there comes a point when you have to and the fact that that means that some people will die is just the nature of viruses. I look forward to you applying this line of thinking to other tory positions.
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Feb 13, 2021 13:22
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imo we should vaccinate everyone under 50 and open everything up
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Feb 13, 2021 13:23
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To clarify, this was two months after she had been convicted, so it is actually as bad as it looks.
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Feb 13, 2021 13:23
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lol christ, 'the vast majority agree with me, if you don't then you're a goon who doesn't go outside anyway, death is inevitable so give me back my starbucks and cineworld'
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Feb 13, 2021 13:27
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Jakabite posted:unless you’re a goon who doesn’t go outside anyway. yes this is me and you can gently caress off imo
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Feb 13, 2021 13:27
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Incredible follow up to smithers begging the times to be nice to him
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Feb 13, 2021 13:27
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Jakabite posted:And we can’t quarantine new arrivals indefinitely or close borders indefinitely given that we’re the second largest travel hub in Europe, if not the largest. So we get to say, June, there’s zero covid(which I’m honestly doubtful is possible at this point particularly given the Tories), then what? Indefinite arrival quarantine? I was pretty firmly in the "lockdown until Covid is beaten, save as many lives as possible" camp, but I hadn't thought about your aspect of the argument before. How the gently caress can we possbily countenacne losing our status as *second largest travel hub in Europe* ? Good god, open up now and kill everyone, we can't fall down that league table!
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Feb 13, 2021 13:28
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Some people are going to die because of austerity, but you see most people think it's necessary, that's a price worth paying, we just have to accept that, and if you don't you're probably some sort of loony lefty who wants to destroy the economy.
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Feb 13, 2021 13:28
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Communist Thoughts posted:Incredible follow up to smithers begging the times to be nice to him It owns lol as does this other posed photo of him https://twitter.com/flying_rodent/status/1360566046013480962?s=19
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Feb 13, 2021 13:28
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Jose posted:It owns lol as does this other posed photo of him Haha come hither smithers wow
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Feb 13, 2021 13:33
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Communist Thoughts posted:Maybe I'm misreading but are you saying you'd rather people die needlessly than lockdown til May as part of a zero covid thing? No, I'm saying that a zero COVID thing isn't going to happen, and we'd last all of five minutes after lockdown ended with zero COVID. If I thought that the government would ever actually do the testing at airports thing with a good test and trace I'd be totally down for it. What I'm against, and what I feel a lot of the thread is arguing for, is locking down pretty much without end in the name of zero-COVID permanently. I'm not saying anyone should be 'okay with dying'. Let's boil it down to a binary choice: we stay in lockdown literally forever and not one single person more (after like June or whatever) dies of COVID, or we open up at some point, with great test and trace, a fully vaccinated population and airport quarantine and all that good poo poo. By choosing the second option, or literally any other option than the first, you're going to kill people. I'd wager you'd still not pick the first one though. I also don't see how this applies to other Tory policies even remotely. More generous and humane welfare, a properly funded health system, etc. aren't about a balance of risks - they're about doing the thing that objectively benefits everyone except a tiny tiny mega wealthy minority. Lockdown on the other hand is massively detrimental to literally everyone but does save lives. There does come a point when the lives saved aren't worth everyone else's quality of life. That point for all of us is much much further along than it is for your average right wing ghoul, but that point does exist and I think many in the thread are wilfully remaining blind to that reality. You can only say that isn't the case, as supervillain as it sounds when you write it in such stark terms, if you agree we should all take an enormous quality of life hit permanently whether it's one life saved per year or 120000.
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Feb 13, 2021 13:35
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Communist Thoughts posted:I do think it's likely we get what they want though and just declare covid over and attempt to open up again, I just highly doubt that results in what they expect
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Feb 13, 2021 13:37
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Scikar posted:Did you mean a specific post in the UKMT? I can't remember one but for this topic George Monbiot is usually pretty good. Also good at checking himself for previous stuff - he reversed opposition to nuclear when he realised there's basically no chance of stopping climate change without it for example, and often calls out landlords, land ownership etc etc as root causes of inequality. Probably a bit too trusting of the police and XR though. It was here. Not a long post but incisive. I have also come around to nuclear. My wife was quite involved in XR strategy but removed herself when she realised it was perpetuating the same power structures that got us into this mess and that its views on race (well, some key players’ views) etc were intolerable. There wasn’t the acknowledgement of the clear link between social and environmental justice. It’s one of those orgs where there is supposedly no hierarchy but what that really means is no explicit hierarchy, so you get power without accountability.
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Feb 13, 2021 13:39
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I think a sufficiently organised and powerful group capable of making demands can get an effective zero covid strategy implemented either by forcing the government to do so or taking sufficient power from the government to do so itself. Once that's in place people won't have to be in a stay at home lockdown except in local short term cases. If your position is that the government is unstoppable and evil/incompetent then you're actively detrimental to people trying to make things better and should stop talking.
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Feb 13, 2021 13:40
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the way of life so many people are in such a rush to get back to is environmentally unsustainable anyway, covid is a good reason to revise how things are done imo
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Feb 13, 2021 13:46
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namesake posted:I think a sufficiently organised and powerful group capable of making demands can get an effective zero covid strategy implemented either by forcing the government to do so or taking sufficient power from the government to do so itself. Once that's in place people won't have to be in a stay at home lockdown except in local short term cases. No, I'd totally go for this, but a sufficiently organised and powerful group doesn't exist, and I don't think we shouldn't be able to discuss the world outside of zero COVID, an unbelievably unlikely strategy, without people saying 'yeah but zero COVID' constantly. Also agree with crispix that this a good time to revise how we do things.
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Feb 13, 2021 13:47
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Jakabite posted:Given that we are not getting to a point when COVID is eliminated entirely any time soon, when do perma-lockdown goons want to start looking at opening up? Like honestly quite a few of you seem to be perfectly happy and find ridiculous the idea that anyone might at some point in the near future want to resume something like normal life. And yes, sorry to say it, but the vast majority of people including me understand that opening up will mean some deaths that wouldn’t happen if we stayed in lockdown until next year. To the vast majority that’s a price worth paying. I’m not saying open up now obviously, but there comes a point when you have to and the fact that that means that some people will die is just the nature of viruses. very cool that being afraid to die of a deadly virus that you are susceptible to is now "actually goons just like to stay indoors all day thats why they want the lockdown!!!!!"
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Feb 13, 2021 13:47
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crispix posted:the way of life so many people are in such a rush to get back to is environmentally unsustainable anyway, covid is a good reason to revise how things are done imo I completely agree but it is an opportunity that the government is not just ignoring but actively avoiding.
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Feb 13, 2021 13:47
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ItohRespectArmy posted:very cool that being afraid to die of a deadly virus that you are susceptible to is now "actually goons just like to stay indoors all day thats why they want the lockdown!!!!!" Yes because I'm exclusively or indeed at all talking about people who are susceptible. E: And if you aren't picking up on the strong 'well I would happily stay inside forever unlike those selfish bastards who want to eventually go back to -scoffs- their PACKAGE HOLIDAYS and, eugh, CINEMAs' vibe then I just dunno what to say.
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Feb 13, 2021 13:49
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Just to Circle back to this, these guys are playing a terrible game of Monopoly. Clustered around one half of the board like that, as soon as someone gets near Go, someone will have to stand up to move their piece any further. Hell, with the dice over there, someone will have to stand up just to pick them back up and roll them around all that useless junk in the middle.
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Feb 13, 2021 13:49
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therattle posted:I completely agree but it is an opportunity that the government is not just ignoring but actively avoiding. i've been fighting the dickhead management where i work since last summer to enable maximum remote working where it's possible and it's made a good difference, you can do things on that sort of level
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Feb 13, 2021 13:51
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Also the whole 'pre-existing condition' thing can gently caress right off as well, especially when it's extended into 'they would have died anyway' reasoning. Anyone debating that should head over to ms demeanor on tumblr. Her partner had an existing heart condition, but they were expecting many more years together, likely long enough for him to get on a long-term transplant list. If you scroll back far enough you can see how happy they were and the plans they had for the future. Now, he's half his body weight and almost permenantly on oxygen. He's lucky enough to have good enough insurance that his doctors are debating whether or not to put him on the emergency transplant list. Both his life expectancy and quality have been significantly reduced. If you want pret open by summer, then just bear that in mind when you talk about acceptable deaths. Bear me in mind as well, while you're at it. At the moment I have to take an inhaler once a day but can expect to live well into my 80s. Post covid, I'm likely to be dead or have my lifespan significantly shortened with huge care restrictions for the time I have left. Do you want to repeat your argument about why I'm not going to be there when I'm old to my wife? So if I seem like I'm taking it personally, I absolutely am. Bobby Deluxe fucked around with this message at 13:56 on Feb 13, 2021 |
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Feb 13, 2021 13:52
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Jakabite posted:Yes because I'm exclusively or indeed at all talking about people who are susceptible. i am susceptible, do you think that people like me's lives are worth risking so you can go on your holidays? is there a specific number you're willing to give up to go back to normal? hell, at that point why bother locking down in the first place? if we're never gona get to zero covid then those who died simply should've been built different and some people are going to die regardless and god forbid we stop being a travel hub.
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Feb 13, 2021 13:53
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Jakabite posted:Yes because I'm exclusively or indeed at all talking about people who are susceptible. have you considered that vibe is actually "wow people would genuinely rather have hundreds of thousands more people die so they can go on those package holidays" personally i was a pretty big fan of the cinema in the before times.
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Feb 13, 2021 13:54
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ItohRespectArmy posted:i am susceptible, do you think that people like me's lives are worth risking so you can go on your holidays? is there a specific number you're willing to give up to go back to normal? Let me turn that around. Do you think that no one should ever be able to go on holiday again, or go to a pub again, so that your risk doesn't increase at all? Let me be clear that I'm not arguing against zero COVID or continuing lockdown for a good few months longer - I'm arguing against the thread idea that no increase in risk at all is acceptable to allow people to return to normal. E: I also find the idea that lockdown isn't killing people and doesn't carry it's own risks pretty annoying cos my dad killed himself during lockdown. E2: In what world am I arguing for a situation where hundreds of thousands more people die?? I'm saying that there should be a balance of risks and discussion around that outside of 'lockdown until there are literally no more deaths of COVID ever and even one is unacceptable' is actually fine and healthy. Jakabite fucked around with this message at 13:57 on Feb 13, 2021 |
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Feb 13, 2021 13:55
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Jakabite posted:I'm not saying anyone should be 'okay with dying'. Let's boil it down to a binary choice: we stay in lockdown literally forever and not one single person more (after like June or whatever) dies of COVID, or we open up at some point, with great test and trace, a fully vaccinated population and airport quarantine and all that good poo poo. By choosing the second option, or literally any other option than the first, you're going to kill people. I'd wager you'd still not pick the first one though. I don't accept for one second that the situation boils down to this binary choice. A working quarantine system and functional test and trace are why Taiwan and New Zealand are still at single figures for covid deaths IIRC, life is essentially back to normal for folk living in this countries. I don't see any reason why the UK could not do the same once this wave is beaten.
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Feb 13, 2021 13:56
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Scikar posted:I don't accept for one second that the situation boils down to this binary choice. A working quarantine system and functional test and trace are why Taiwan and New Zealand are still at single figures for covid deaths IIRC, life is essentially back to normal for folk living in this countries. I don't see any reason why the UK could not do the same once this wave is beaten. Except for the fact that there is zero political will to do so. I absolutely agree that this is exactly what we should do. But we aren't going to. And discussing things within thos parameters doesn't make you some Mengelian monster.
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Feb 13, 2021 13:58
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Jakabite posted:No, I'd totally go for this, but a sufficiently organised and powerful group doesn't exist, and I don't think we shouldn't be able to discuss the world outside of zero COVID, an unbelievably unlikely strategy, without people saying 'yeah but zero COVID' constantly. Okay so the various countries that have done zero covid or have been capable of implementing measures along zero covid lines is an unbelievable strategy? It's a set of measures which do exist today, that our government hasn't even tried and you're already bargaining down to "Well maybe it's okay if we let the death and injury rates roll on because we can't really expect a proper resolution." poo poo if you want to ignore the death toll if the government just say "well deaths are back in the dozens each day so that's fine." and open the pubs do you actually think people are going to go back to their old habits? That they'll suddenly feel happy and secure to just ignore the virus? They had to be bribed to eat out last year which caused cases to spike when they did - how does that sound acceptable? There has to be a meaningful effective resolution to get people out of the fear and expecting the virus to burn itself out will prolong that by years compared to an active solution. Jakabite posted:Except for the fact that there is zero political will to do so. I absolutely agree that this is exactly what we should do. But we aren't going to. And discussing things within thos parameters doesn't make you some Mengelian monster. You've given up. Thats sad but it happens. Go away.
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Feb 13, 2021 13:59
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Jakabite posted:Except for the fact that there is zero political will to do so. I absolutely agree that this is exactly what we should do. But we aren't going to. And discussing things within thos parameters doesn't make you some Mengelian monster. Okay then, how many people do you think it's acceptable to let die then? IF your position is so rational and realisitc whats the number. How many is your Pret a Manger worth.
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Feb 13, 2021 14:01
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Jakabite posted:What I'm against, and what I feel a lot of the thread is arguing for, is locking down pretty much without end in the name of zero-COVID permanently. I don't disagree with everything you're saying but this seems to be the crux of the argument and is a strawman you've constructed. Nobody wants lockdown forever they just don't want to open up in a stupid fashion. You seem to be saying "well that's what we're getting" which is 100% true but isn't what people are taking issue with. Certainly I don't have a plan. My only hope is either the vaccine works, there's no resistant or worse strains and things resolve that way, or that the government is eventually forced into a zero covid strategy. But saying that means me or people like me want to be lockdowned forever is just stupid and it's offensive cause the reason we don't want things opened up right now is because we want this poo poo to end.
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Feb 13, 2021 14:02
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Jakabite posted:Let me turn that around. Do you think that no one should ever be able to go on holiday again, or go to a pub again, so that your risk doesn't increase at all? Let me be clear that I'm not arguing against zero COVID or continuing lockdown for a good few months longer - I'm arguing against the thread idea that no increase in risk at all is acceptable to allow people to return to normal. the problem is that you're arguing that zero covid is impossible when it really isn't all it would take is the bare minimum effort that was taken in dozens of countries including major travel hubs like hong kong, I don't think the world should stop just to keep me alive but it'd be nice if they put in as much effort as possible to reach that point. I'm sorry to hear about your dad, I've personally stuggled with mental health significantly before lockdown and plenty during and I understand that it is extremely difficult for people but I live in genuine fear that any day now the goverment will decide that covid is over and decide that at risk young people just aren't worth it because well if you're in your 20's you should just be okay and while that is unlikely, it is the tories. I think it's very harsh to categorise this thread, goony as it is as a bunch of shut ins who never want lockdown to end though and I don't think anyone is arguing that nobody should die from covid ever, just that we actually take the virus seriously which will also probably not happen.
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Feb 13, 2021 14:04
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Jakabite posted:Let me turn that around. Do you think that no one should ever be able to go on holiday again, or go to a pub again, so that your risk doesn't increase at all? You can't talk about 'in reality' and ignore the fact that we have a malcompetent government in that reality. Jakabite posted:E2: In what world am I arguing for a situation where hundreds of thousands more people die?? Not sure how you work out what percentage of that would die or suffer long covid, but I'd put good money on it being in the hundreds of thousands.
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Feb 13, 2021 14:04
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Jakabite posted:Except for the fact that there is zero political will to do so. I absolutely agree that this is exactly what we should do. But we aren't going to. And discussing things within thos parameters doesn't make you some Mengelian monster. I did not have you down before now as someone who believes that the political will to do anything arises spontaneously and outside human influence, that would somewhat invalidate protesting, right? There's a reason we tell centrists to get to gently caress when they say "better things aren't possible". If it's genuinely impossible to have any effect on the policy then why does it matter to you what any of us here think?
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Feb 13, 2021 14:05
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Jakabite posted:Except for the fact that there is zero political will to do so. I absolutely agree that this is exactly what we should do. But we aren't going to. And discussing things within thos parameters doesn't make you some Mengelian monster. You're saying that no political will exists for anything but Mengelian monstrosity or perma-lockdown, and then arguing for the former. Please at least take ownership of your support for policy that poo poo, and don't try to frame it as a morally virtuous position to take.
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Feb 13, 2021 14:08
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ItohRespectArmy posted:I think it's very harsh to categorise this thread, goony as it is as a bunch of shut ins who never want lockdown to end that's actually me, i've had the time of my life this last year suddenly everyone else is living as i always have (due to mental illness) and suddenly i can relate to everyone because they're just staying in of a weekend and going for walks by themselves too sometimes i still wonder if it's all a dream 
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Feb 13, 2021 14:10
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crispix posted:that's actually me, i've had the time of my life this last year atleast somebody is enjoying it, all I've done is clear out my steam backlog and watch all those prestige tv shows everyone told me to watch.
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Feb 13, 2021 14:11
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Maybe I've gotten a little carried away defending my point here. I do fully support Zero Covid as a strategy and fair play to the people working on that campaign. I've actually done a bit of copy writing for it myself. I think it just gets my goat to see some goons absolutely demonise people who, without any ill will in the world, are hopeful that the vaccine might allow them to get back to their lives. Hell, most people won't even have heard of a zero Covid strategy. Wondering if you might be able to go on holiday or to the pub this year doesn't make you some awful selfish elite bastard who doesn't care about other people. I think that's what got to me. Apologies to any goons who are susceptible, I didn't mean to imply you're disposable. Jakabite fucked around with this message at 14:24 on Feb 13, 2021 |
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Feb 13, 2021 14:13
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Do any of you covid to zero people have school age kids here? I’m honestly curious.
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Feb 13, 2021 14:13
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