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This whole thing perfectly represents the Democratic Party. "Wow, this thing that a lot of people want is really popular. Lets say we want that too!" *Later* "Well, we didn't actually expect to have to deliver no that thing. So, lets just walk it back a bit." Like holy gently caress, this poo poo is exactly why it's so easy for people to go all 'dems bad'. This, basically: https://twitter.com/wordgirly/status/1360647036589211655?s=20
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Feb 13, 2021 19:16
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| # ? Jun 9, 2024 16:10 |
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Lot of people suddenly pretending having witnesses would change the outcome now that there definitely won't be witnesses.
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Feb 13, 2021 19:18
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https://twitter.com/SykesCharlie/status/1360654218940592128
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Feb 13, 2021 19:19
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The Dems are kings of "This is probably a good thing but make sure everyone is disappointed first." it wont change poo poo but also at least twist the knife if you're going down you loving morons
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Feb 13, 2021 19:19
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Angry_Ed posted:Lot of people suddenly pretending having witnesses would change the outcome. Outcome isn't the only thing that matters, would have given people poo poo to throw at republicans for a long rear end time.
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Feb 13, 2021 19:19
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Yeeeeep. This is the worst possible outcome for the Democrats.
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Feb 13, 2021 19:19
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Angry_Ed posted:Lot of people suddenly pretending having witnesses would change the outcome.
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Feb 13, 2021 19:19
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I'm incredibly pissed off.
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Feb 13, 2021 19:19
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Angry_Ed posted:Lot of people suddenly pretending having witnesses would change the outcome. It's no so much that, I don't think anyone believe 2/3 would vote to convict. It's more that it's the typical Democrat play of offering something that is popular, and then walking it back when asked to deliver.
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Feb 13, 2021 19:20
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Telsa Cola posted:Outcome isn't the only thing that matters, would have given people poo poo to throw at republicans for a long rear end time. Ah yes, "poo poo to throw at Republicans" a thing that has worked never since Reagan.
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Feb 13, 2021 19:20
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Angry_Ed posted:Lot of people suddenly pretending having witnesses would change the outcome. Nobody here is pretending that, afaik, at least not seriously. The trial was predetermined from the moment it began. The point is that Republicans were knocked flat from the witness vote, and it gave Dems a chance to drag more information on what happened in daylight while scoring potential political points. It's one thing if they hadn't held the vote at all - what they essentially did was vote to fight, and then immediately back down.
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Feb 13, 2021 19:20
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Angry_Ed posted:Ah yes, "poo poo to throw at Republicans" a thing that has worked never since Reagan. That seems to be hard thing to quantify but go off.
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Feb 13, 2021 19:21
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Social Studies 3rd Period posted:Nobody here is pretending that, afaik, at least not seriously. The trial was predetermined from the moment it began. The point is that Republicans were knocked flat from the witness vote, and it gave Dems a chance to drag more information on what happened in daylight while scoring potential political points. It's one thing if they hadn't held the vote at all - what they essentially did was vote to fight, and then immediately back down. Sorry did you just invoke "political capital"?
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Feb 13, 2021 19:21
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I don't know if the Democrats had anything to gain from calling witnesses but it's pretty plainly loving obvious the Republicans thought they had a lot to lose. gently caress I'm not even going to watch closing arguments. gently caress these loving quitter pieces of poo poo.
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Feb 13, 2021 19:21
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Angry_Ed posted:Sorry did you just invoke "political capital"? Why have the witness vote at all?
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Feb 13, 2021 19:22
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Telsa Cola posted:That seems to be hard thing to quantify but go off. One only needs to look at Impeachment I to see how it doesn't translate to electoral victory.
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Feb 13, 2021 19:22
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Velocity Raptor posted:It's no so much that, I don't think anyone believe 2/3 would vote to convict. It's more that it's the typical Democrat play of offering something that is popular, and then walking it back when asked to deliver. But could you [schumer] kindly tell us why you took the L so casually??
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Feb 13, 2021 19:22
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Angry_Ed posted:Lot of people suddenly pretending having witnesses would change the outcome. its less that and more that it would have maybe hurt the GOP more, because people would have seen sworn testimony about how trump didnt care if pence died and etc. but we have seen that, we saw it live. i do agree they hosed that up bad, but i also sorta get why they did. they were only gonna get her as a witness and thats it. they wernt gonna get trump or any of his staff or mccarthy without massive shitshow that would have led to nothing. plus everyones mind is made up. end it now with the clips you have and let the GOP make their obvious bad faith acquittal. no one outside us grognards is gonna give a poo poo about the witnesses a week from now. but they will remember the GOP crowing like assholes about how they saved their shithead king. we arnt gonna get new info until the various FBI and big investigations are done.
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Feb 13, 2021 19:23
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Angry_Ed posted:One only needs to look at Impeachment I to see how it doesn't translate to electoral victory. Mmm yes Im sure turnout would have even better if the dems didn't go through with the first impeachment hearings even with their base wanting it.
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Feb 13, 2021 19:23
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The people who voted for you wanted you to go after Trump and when you actually had the opportunity to go after Trump you blinked and bailed. Good luck getting people to turn out in the next election with "yeah but witnesses would have meant we had to do work."
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Feb 13, 2021 19:25
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Angry_Ed posted:Lot of people suddenly pretending having witnesses would change the outcome now that there definitely won't be witnesses. this. Nothing would've changed the outcome of this trial short of every GOP member of the Senate being killed by the mob. Everyone screaming and wailing over this is acting like it would've made any difference and I just don't see it. It was never going to convince any of the GOP senators beyond the Romney types to convict. Instead of fighting a battle you know you'll lose its better to focus on actually passing bills and putting Trump in the rear mirror and letting the SDNY/GA AG/etc. take care of his crimes. I suppose we now know that impeachment is literally pointless though as no one is ever getting convicted for any reason.
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Feb 13, 2021 19:25
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Requesting a 6-hour probe because holy poo poo I'm just frustrated and need a break (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 13, 2021 19:25
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Telsa Cola posted:Mmm yes Im sure turnout would have even better if the dems didn't go through with the first impeachment hearings even with their base wanting it. Not what I said but thanks for playing. What I am saying is that it doesn't matter if they called all the witnesses in the world, there is no way "having more poo poo to throw at Republicans" would depress the Republican base enough or convince enough of that same base that yes, Trump is a criminal who should be impeached. Especially in midterm elections where I could've sworn you have to run for things not against things. The outcome was already known, pretending like getting testimony from more than the one person who wanted to testify would make all the difference in the world (and give Democrats the mythical "political capital") is folly.
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Feb 13, 2021 19:27
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axeil posted:this. Maybe instead of talking about how witnesses wouldn't have done anything you could look at the people who voted for Dems being super pissed off about this and see that this is a terrible look for Dems election chances in the future. At the very least witnesses would have kept this in the news cycle for longer, which in itself is a win for Democrats.
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Feb 13, 2021 19:27
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Rabble posted:The people who voted for you wanted you to go after Trump and when you actually had the opportunity to go after Trump you blinked and bailed. Hmm, yes, this will be more prevalent in peoples' minds than whatever Dems and the Biden admin do for covid relief. This will be the pressing issue over the vaccine rollout. Voting on considering witnesses and then not calling any is a dumb unforced error, but I don't understand the apoplexy here.
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Feb 13, 2021 19:27
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Yeah, nobody was expecting witnesses to change the outcome. And in fact this was the reason I thought, yesterday, that the JHB wouldn't change anything--because it doesn't actually change any of the fundamental realities of the process or the outcome. But losing something hurts more than never having it in the first place. Give somebody  and they'll feel a little better, take away and they'll feel a little worse, but do one then the other and they won't be back where they started because they'll feel the loss more keenly than they felt the gain.That's where we are right now. If they'd just started the day going to the vote people would feel better than if they hadn't felt like they had reason to hope for a couple hours earlier in the day.
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Feb 13, 2021 19:27
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So does Lindsey Graham change his vote again now or what
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Feb 13, 2021 19:28
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axeil posted:this. ehh, i get why people are pissed. the dems got an actual victory and the chuds were screaming with rage and genuinely scared and than the dems dropped the sword and gave a speech instead. giving people a glimmer of people hope and than ripping it away even if there was some actual smart/"smart" reasoning is loving lovely. but yeah i agree.
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Feb 13, 2021 19:28
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SubG posted:Yeah, nobody was expecting witnesses to change the outcome. And in fact this was the reason I thought, yesterday, that the JHB wouldn't change anything--because it doesn't actually change any of the fundamental realities of the process or the outcome. It's this, for me. I acknowledge that yeah, political capital is a bit silly of an argument to some degree, with a slightly cooler head. But Dems teed up a fight, stepped up to the line - and then basically backed off.
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Feb 13, 2021 19:29
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https://twitter.com/jbarro/status/1360657237673472004
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Feb 13, 2021 19:29
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Rabble posted:Maybe instead of talking about how witnesses wouldn't have done anything you could look at the people who voted for Dems being super pissed off about this and see that this is a terrible look for Dems election chances in the future. I predict the number of people whose only reason for voting D was "convict Donald Trump" is negligible compared to the people who want them to do things that are actually doable like COVID relief. Yeah for example it's more likely people will remember that some Republicans were tricked into voting for wintesses, which also doesn't mean anything either to be honest.
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Feb 13, 2021 19:29
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FBS posted:So does Lindsey Graham change his vote again now or what This actually works even better for him because now he can go "We wanted to call witnesses but then you didn't".
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Feb 13, 2021 19:29
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Dapper_Swindler posted:its less that and more that it would have maybe hurt the GOP more, because people would have seen sworn testimony about how trump didnt care if pence died and etc. but we have seen that, we saw it live. You're assuming the witnesses would actually say that though and not go "hmmmm well I don't recall" I will grant there is an argument for making the GOP sit there and try to defend it but fundamentally it's pointless as GOP voters aren't seeing/caring about this and its not like someone being able to cut an ad against Mike Lee is going to change the electoral outcome in his next election. It massively sucks our country is so broken, but given that its better to change the battlefield (i.e. COVID relief, other bills) than a quixotic quest.
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Feb 13, 2021 19:30
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Rea posted:Hmm, yes, this will be more prevalent in peoples' minds than whatever Dems and the Biden admin do for covid relief. This will be the pressing issue over the vaccine rollout. I'm sure I'll calm down about this later but this is a huuuuge unforced error. Democrats giving up on an actual victory because it's pointless and a waste of time is not how you get people to stand for hours to vote for you.
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Feb 13, 2021 19:31
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https://twitter.com/jonathanchait/status/1360657369294925827
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Feb 13, 2021 19:31
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axeil posted:this. This is my feeling—it’s not like we’re dealing with a Watergate-era voting populous where the existence of new damning evidence suddenly will heavily tip the odds on impeachment or even provide new, great political fodder. Country is hosed—a substantial minority would want Trump as forever president even if he himself went into the Capitol to hang Mike Pence on Jan 6. Might as well move on and get done what you can while you can because you might not have this kind of legislative capital for a long, long, looooooong time (if ever again).
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Feb 13, 2021 19:32
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Rabble posted:I'm sure I'll calm down about this later but this is a huuuuge unforced error. Democrats giving up on an actual victory because it's pointless and a waste of time is not how you get people to stand for hours to vote for you. You still haven't actually quantified an actual victory that would've resulted from calling all the witnesses as opposed to one (or just getting her testimony on record)
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Feb 13, 2021 19:32
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Dapper_Swindler posted:ehh, i get why people are pissed. the dems got an actual victory and the chuds were screaming with rage and genuinely scared and than the dems dropped the sword and gave a speech instead. giving people a glimmer of people hope and than ripping it away even if there was some actual smart/"smart" reasoning is loving lovely. but yeah i agree. I think people are reading too much into "the GOP was screaming with rage" I think they just want this to be over because it forces them to be in the Senate and it's personally irritating to them. Rabble posted:Maybe instead of talking about how witnesses wouldn't have done anything you could look at the people who voted for Dems being super pissed off about this and see that this is a terrible look for Dems election chances in the future. Are you seriously arguing this should've been done for "news cycle" purposes? How much of an impact did the first trump impeachment news cycles have on the 2020 election? No one is going to be campaigning on this in 2022. gently caress, even weridos like us probably aren't going to remember this in 2022. Conversely, if this held up COVID relief (and granted I don't know if it would), that would have a measurable negative impact on people's lives. poo poo, weren't people in here screaming about how this is all pointless and Dems should just SEND OUT THE CHECKS last week? (Not saying you in particular said that, just that it was a widely held belief in here). axeil fucked around with this message at 19:35 on Feb 13, 2021 |
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Feb 13, 2021 19:32
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Rabble posted:I'm sure I'll calm down about this later but this is a huuuuge unforced error. Democrats giving up on an actual victory because it's pointless and a waste of time is not how you get people to stand for hours to vote for you. Again, whether or not the Dems called witnesses in in the impeachment trial in 2021 will not matter to people even 0.01% as much as how the pandemic looks in 2022 based on economic action and the federal government's vaccination strategy. We're all extremely online and extremely political. The vast, vast majority of voters aren't.
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Feb 13, 2021 19:33
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Alright so if calling the witnesses wasn't important, why did they do the impeachment at all?
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Feb 13, 2021 19:34
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