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Ambaire posted:We've already seen deathsquitos get a huge nerf due to 'popular outcry'. Disclaimer: I still haven't gotten far enough in the game to encounter them. They'll still one-shot you if you don't have full iron armor and there's already a vocal contingent of players calling for those things to be un-nerfed lmao
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Feb 14, 2021 01:19
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Ambaire posted:Valheim was also on itch.io for about 2.5 years before releasing on Steam. Maybe all the itch.io players of it were hardcore masochists who loved that kind of grind. MonkeyforaHead posted:I do have an extensive thread discussing it in their Suggestions subforum, half of which is other players shouting me down to 'git gud' or wait for an easy mode to be patched in. (???) I think the actual devteam is something like 4 people so the odds of them even gleaning anything useful is dubious, but, I tried.
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Feb 14, 2021 01:19
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pentyne posted:Pathologic 2 Correct. Please enjoy.
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Feb 14, 2021 01:33
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OgNar posted:This isnt a problem with an adaptor, I needed the same and just bought one off amazon and it worked fine. Hey thanks, I ended up just getting these + the Sennheisers.
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Feb 14, 2021 01:33
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pentyne posted:Pathologic 2 welcome to the Russian literary tradition, enjoy your stay
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Feb 14, 2021 01:38
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pentyne posted:Pathologic 2 Any choice is right if it is willed.
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Feb 14, 2021 01:40
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Ambaire posted:Valheim was also on itch.io for about 2.5 years before releasing on Steam. Maybe all the itch.io players of it were hardcore masochists who loved that kind of grind. I'm convinced that a lot of EA games really suffer from feedback from people who have been playing for years and want the difficulty cranked up to keep it interesting. Compounded by new players being unlikely to start giving feedback on a game they aren't really invested in. E: Still hoping the devs of Star Traders make it a little more accessible for the same reason. So many cool ideas, so punishing if the player steps out of their build's confines or doesn't know what to prep for. Fruits of the sea fucked around with this message at 02:34 on Feb 14, 2021 |
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Feb 14, 2021 02:29
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Fruits of the sea posted:I'm convinced that a lot of EA games really suffer from feedback from people who have been playing for years and want the difficulty cranked up to keep it interesting. Compounded by new players being unlikely to start giving feedback on a game they aren't really invested in. In many cases, EA and the constant player feedback can really do something to improve a game and make sure that glaring design issues are caught before they become a problem down the road. The downside is that it means this kind of thing can also happen.
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Feb 14, 2021 02:32
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Cardiovorax posted:This is pretty much factually correct and it's the acknowledged reason for why e.g. Darkest Dungeon turned out so balls-hard. Every time the devs did anything, the EA crowd bitched and moaned about how it wasn't hard enough until they had eventually dialled it up to a point where it's only barely still accessible to normal people anymore. Why does it seem like so few of these indie devs have any concept of multiple difficulties and options thereof? Instead of changing the entire loving game to suit a tiny subset of the players, just make it a separate difficulty... There's quite a few aspects of Valheim that would greatly benefit from something like this. Make it as granular as ARK's settings, even.
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Feb 14, 2021 02:36
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Personally, I think it's because balancing a game is honestly really hard and especially a small team often just wouldn't have the time or ability to do so multiple times for just one game. A dial that lets you scale the amount of resources necessary for any given object really wouldn't be difficult to implement just as a convenience feature, though. Maybe they'll still do that later.
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Feb 14, 2021 02:37
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As someone who played Merc Kings when it was still in EA up until release, I'm glad they made some changes like telling you where the boss is and smoothing out some of the grind (not all of it tho lol), but I will never get why they took out the most interesting Shell-type ammo and I wouldn't know if they put it back in because it's been so long since I did everything worth doing.
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Feb 14, 2021 02:48
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MonkeyforaHead posted:I do have an extensive thread discussing it in their Suggestions subforum, half of which is other players shouting me down to 'git gud' or wait for an easy mode to be patched in. steam forums are universally cesspits where this happens in every thread containing anything critical about a game. the less you look at them the saner you'll be
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Feb 14, 2021 02:55
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Huh, didn't notice until now that Valheim is published by Coffee Stain (THQ Nordic/Embracer). EDIT: Third most played game on Steam right now, between DOTA 2 and Rust. 270K players in-game. ErrEff fucked around with this message at 03:05 on Feb 14, 2021 |
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Feb 14, 2021 03:00
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I think you guys are vastly overestimating how many people play games on itch.io, never mind give feedback to early access ones. Hell, a lot of you bought that pack with a million games and didn't even look at it twice.
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Feb 14, 2021 03:06
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Det_no posted:I think you guys are vastly overestimating how many people play games on itch.io, never mind give feedback to early access ones.
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Feb 14, 2021 03:12
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darkest dungeon at least added in radiant mode which reduces the grinding.
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Feb 14, 2021 03:29
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Yeah, although Radiant difficulty mostly makes the game faster, not easier. Still, it's at least something.
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Feb 14, 2021 03:31
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Ambaire posted:Why does it seem like so few of these indie devs have any concept of multiple difficulties and options thereof? Instead of changing the entire loving game to suit a tiny subset of the players, just make it a separate difficulty... Darkest Dungeon actually has a really great alternative difficulty setting, even though it wasn't in at launch. They don't call it "Easy Mode", they call it "Radiant Mode" and it basically keeps the combat tough but MAJORLY cuts down on the amount of grind needed to upgrade your stuff and recruit new guys, maintaining the challenge and keeping permadeath a factor but making it significantly less punishing. It's a good setting, I know people who hated the game but eventually gave it a try on Radiant mode and beat it and loved it, and I'm glad the original setting is still around because I enjoy a slow burn like Darkest Dungeon
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Feb 14, 2021 05:09
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One of the nice things about Darkest Dungeon is that it is really easy to mod. My preferred way to play is to use Radiant and modify attack rolls so I get a critical hit 75% of the time. That might sound like it makes the game too easy, but the thing about Darkest Dungeon has always been that it's about attrition much more than about individual fights. The damage bonus this translates to makes fights go by much faster without taking away from the challenge too much, especially at the higher dungeon levels.
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Feb 14, 2021 05:13
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Ripper Swarm posted:welcome to the Russian literary tradition, enjoy your stay I had a literature professor in college who said that in Russian lit, a happy ending is one where all the main characters are dead since they don’t have to be miserable anymore. Cardiovorax posted:I'm not sure where you get that from. The point was that it's not really about how many people play the game, it's about how many different opinions and positions the developer is exposed to. This is why playtesting and especially having a large number of is playtesters is important: it ensures that you don't end up in a spiral where you build everything around a niche group that doesn't represent what the average player would actually want. It’s why I like stuff like XCom pulling metrics way more than community feedback, it really cuts down on the biased sampling.
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Feb 14, 2021 05:31
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Ambaire posted:Why does it seem like so few of these indie devs have any concept of multiple difficulties and options thereof? Instead of changing the entire loving game to suit a tiny subset of the players, just make it a separate difficulty... Indie devs should pull a page from the "controller support" for the original release of Binding of Isaac and at the very least have a post-it note labeled "google Cheat Engine" where the nonexistent difficulty options should be.
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Feb 14, 2021 08:44
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Ugly In The Morning posted:It’s why I like stuff like XCom pulling metrics way more than community feedback, it really cuts down on the biased sampling.
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Feb 14, 2021 08:52
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Ugly In The Morning posted:It’s why I like stuff like XCom pulling metrics way more than community feedback, it really cuts down on the biased sampling. 
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Feb 14, 2021 08:56
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Sorting Algorithms posted:Indie devs should pull a page from the "controller support" for the original release of Binding of Isaac and at the very least have a post-it note labeled "google Cheat Engine" where the nonexistent difficulty options should be. Yeah, I'm aware of the existence of Cheat Engine. Prey (2016) was significantly more fun once I used it to max out the resources and not worry about scavenging for the rare stuff. Just feels wrong, somehow, with Valheim. Although skipping the bronze grind would make it more fun, I think.
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Feb 14, 2021 09:01
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Idgi
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Feb 14, 2021 09:02
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pentyne posted:Pathologic 2 pathologic 2 occasionally has positive emotional catharsis so just be glad you're playing it and not path 1
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Feb 14, 2021 09:03
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Doesn't quite apply in this case, I think, because an important part of that kind of metric (such as through achievements) also consists of measuring which parts of a game people never even reach.
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Feb 14, 2021 09:16
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In this case, all the planes come back and the devs can see which soldiers have their guts blown up.
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Feb 14, 2021 09:17
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nordichammer posted:Idgi If you mean the plane pic it's a funny anecdote from WWII or one of those other wars, idk. Engineers looked at planes that returned from combat, examined bullet holes to see where they got shot at the most, and reinforced those parts on future planes. What they failed to consider at the time was that these were the planes that returned from combat after being shot at in those places, and the real vulnerabilities were in the parts that got shot up on the planes that never returned at all. The pic is meant to be a shorthand for how "metrics" can be actively harmful if applied incorrectly
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Feb 14, 2021 09:18
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Ah gotcha ty
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Feb 14, 2021 09:20
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goferchan posted:The pic is meant to be a shorthand for how "metrics" can be actively harmful if applied incorrectly.
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Feb 14, 2021 09:22
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Fruits of the sea posted:I'm convinced that a lot of EA games really suffer from feedback from people who have been playing for years and want the difficulty cranked up to keep it interesting. Compounded by new players being unlikely to start giving feedback on a game they aren't really invested in. Monster Sanctuary suffered pretty significantly from this. The scaling is nonsensical and the difficulty curve takes a great concept and makes a miserable execution.
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Feb 14, 2021 09:42
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My roommate's entire undergrad psychology major can pretty much be summed up as "are you measuring what you think you're measuring? Here's ways you're probably mistaken." It's an issue, but it's a known one and there are ways to go into it aware of the mistakes. Ideally you listen both to what players are saying AND what they're doing, see where those interact. Just use that to identify problems though, not to define solutions. Generic forums posters aren't good developers. Yes, I am typing that self-aware...-ly? That word got away from me.
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Feb 14, 2021 10:00
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There's a nice German saying that gets drilled into a lot of people during their apprenticeship: "Wer misst, misst Mist." He who measures, measures poo poo
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Feb 14, 2021 10:00
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Cardiovorax posted:Doesn't quite apply in this case, I think, because an important part of that kind of metric (such as through achievements) also consists of measuring which parts of a game people never even reach. It definitely applies pretty well to community feedback. You are much less likely to get feedback from the people who are aren’t engaged by your game for some reason, so the data you get will be biased towards the niche that are heavily invested (which has been your point the whole time!) Stickman fucked around with this message at 10:34 on Feb 14, 2021 |
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Feb 14, 2021 10:18
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Stickman posted:It definitely applies pretty well to community feedback. You are much less likely to get feedback from the people who are aren’t engaged by your game for some reason, so the data you get will be biased towards the niche that are heavily invested (which has been your point the whole time!)
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Feb 14, 2021 10:24
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I think we’re agreeing here but I’m not sure. That image gets thrown out a lot without people understanding what it actually is. Vincent posted:In this case, all the planes come back and the devs can see which soldiers have their guts blown up. I think they were talking about how the community feedback is the type of people that always made it back. Their feedback sucks because top level players give you no information about difficulty for the average player. Ugly In The Morning fucked around with this message at 10:58 on Feb 14, 2021 |
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Feb 14, 2021 10:54
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Cardiovorax posted:Personally, I think it's because balancing a game is honestly really hard and especially a small team often just wouldn't have the time or ability to do so multiple times for just one game. It might be hard to make multiple difficulty levels that feature clever or deep changes to the game, but if you have it in one state and hardcore players say it is too easy and you change something that makes it way harder, put a switch in to select between them and mark it as "difficulty toggle". Job done.
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Feb 14, 2021 11:00
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Gromit posted:It might be hard to make multiple difficulty levels that feature clever or deep changes to the game, but if you have it in one state and hardcore players say it is too easy and you change something that makes it way harder, put a switch in to select between them and mark it as "difficulty toggle". Job done.
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Feb 14, 2021 11:08
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Ugly In The Morning posted:I had a literature professor in college who said that in Russian lit, a happy ending is one where all the main characters are dead since they don’t have to be miserable anymore. ... As to balance - a lot of people tend to believe that feedback from "top players" with experience in the game helps improve balance for casual players as well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1p42KtZOCw
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Feb 14, 2021 11:19
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