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While I think investing in propulsion technology to be useful in the long run, we have more immediate concerns: These rogue GLADIO elements, a sizeable amount of conscious human beings kidnapped to an alien base on Mars, an even larger amount unconscious due to unknown alien technology, new alien ships in said base, etc. We need offensive capabilities in the event any of the potential alien civilizations we have evidence of are still active, not to mention our known hostile elements on Earth. I also think quickly understanding the alien technology on this Martian base will be promising to give us insights to propulsion technology, not to mention potential weapons, defense and understanding to safely activate the cryo chambers our fellow men are being imprisoned in.
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Feb 15, 2021 05:40
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working on an update right now, but first, here's an invite to that Discord server I said I'd make days ago: https://discord.gg/fxtZMRHSFoxfire_ posted:It's hard to do. We haven't had any hull or engine techs since launching Karzeleks (mostly been researching GLADIO-focused internal security). Minerva orbits at 20bKm out, so way too far for something fighter-sized. For the hell of it, here's the current orbital positions of the planets as of the beginning of May 1982.     The Skarbnik is actually beyond the orbit of Saturn right now (you'll get a more detailed update on what the survey ships are up to soon), although none of the gas giants or their moons have actually been visited yet, both ships are still focusing on asteroids.
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Feb 15, 2021 08:01
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Huh, is that the Hale–Bopp comet? Props for early discovery to us, I suppose.
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Feb 15, 2021 08:08
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HiHo ChiRho posted:While I think investing in propulsion technology to be useful in the long run, we have more immediate concerns: These rogue GLADIO elements, a sizeable amount of conscious human beings kidnapped to an alien base on Mars, an even larger amount unconscious due to unknown alien technology, new alien ships in said base, etc. I mean, we're working on all of those. We can't really do much about GLADIO until we finish researching the ELINT tech to break their codes and tap into their radio network. We can't do much about studying the Cydonia site in fine detail until we have Xenology and Troop Transport figured out, which will take years. We're currently researching the fundamentals of railgun tech. It's all in the pipeline, just at the "hurry up and wait" stage. Right now we're just spitballing what to do in the meantime with what we have on hand.
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Feb 15, 2021 17:18
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How many years do our comrades in the technical colleges believe it will be till we can get more viable ships for reaching beyond our solar system up and running?
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Feb 15, 2021 21:52
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https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3943978&userid=166604&perpage=40&pagenumber=2#post509621998 is the last vote, for reference.
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Feb 15, 2021 22:19
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That reminds me, for the next vote, I gotta put up a measure to get my flag adopted. That's the one below for reference (the blue circle is earth, so comintern nations can strip out the star and hammer and sickle to put in their own iconography). Edit: replaced with better colours. NewMars fucked around with this message at 23:46 on Feb 15, 2021 |
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Feb 15, 2021 23:21
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NewMars posted:That reminds me, for the next vote, I gotta put up a measure to get my flag adopted. That's the one below for reference (the blue circle is earth, so comintern nations can strip out the star and hammer and sickle to put in their own iconography). This is a quite good flag.
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Feb 16, 2021 00:56
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NewMars posted:That reminds me, for the next vote, I gotta put up a measure to get my flag adopted. That's the one below for reference (the blue circle is earth, so comintern nations can strip out the star and hammer and sickle to put in their own iconography). PurpleXVI posted:This is a quite good flag. ^ I'd vote to adopt this in a heartbeat, excellent work!
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Feb 16, 2021 01:20
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NewMars posted:That reminds me, for the next vote, I gotta put up a measure to get my flag adopted. That's the one below for reference (the blue circle is earth, so comintern nations can strip out the star and hammer and sickle to put in their own iconography). I personally prefer the old colors but it's still a very good flag.
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Feb 16, 2021 03:03
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Grizzwold posted:I personally prefer the old colors but it's still a very good flag. it's a great flag, agree that the colours aren't quite right(they could maybe be a bit lighter?) but I'm happy to go with it.
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Feb 16, 2021 03:58
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Josef bugman posted:How many years do our comrades in the technical colleges believe it will be till we can get more viable ships for reaching beyond our solar system up and running? We don't even have a proven theory of superluminal travel. Let's not put the tachanka before the horses.
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Feb 16, 2021 04:00
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This is an extremely short update, but it's dealing with a fairly major thing so it seems reasonable. 1982 is one hell of a busy year. It will be finished by the end of this week, though, come hell or high water. May 9, 1982   The XCOM team arrives at Cydonia, linking up with the advance team sent from Barsoom. The Tranquility immediately turns around to return to Earth, where they will take on an additional 250 crew, to replace the lost personnel at Barsoom and provide support to the scout team.  Major Pacho was a logical choice for the command. A veteran of multiple police actions in the aftermath of the Great Revolutionary War, Pacho is a proven expert at improvisation and creative use of available resources, in addition to holding a degree in Xenoarchaeology from Interkosmos Academy. The team will spend a few days field-testing their equipment before they begin exploring the site in earnest. May 11, 1982 Having brought proper climbing equipment, the Cydonia team makes their way down into the 'burial pit' inside the Face to examine the corpses. Many of them are still clothed in synthetic-fabric clothing, most of it ripped, punctured, or in some cases melted. The bodies have been subjected to myriad injuries - some have had little holes burned through them, others have entry and exit wounds consistent with some sort of projectile weapon, still others seem to have suffered blunt physical trauma. A few have no obvious physical injury. It will take weeks, maybe months, to catalogue all of these, and likely years to study all of them in detail, but a brief examination shows, in general, a lot of evidence of quick, violent death. Most notably, every single body is of the same species, and they are all of the same species as the Roswell specimens. May 12, 1982 After months of preparation, the Hawaiian royal family embarks on a state visit to the Japanese Imperial court in Kyoto. There is much pomp and circumstance associated with the event, and it makes for great television, but the ceremony will not be recounted in detail here. What matters is that, accompanying the Hawaiian delegation, official guests of honor of the Queen, are a team of Comintern diplomats, with support from their Hawaiian opposite numbers. After the main events of the day, including a tour of a shiny new Trans-Newtonian mining complex just outside of Kyoto, the diplomats are taken aside. They are expecting to meet with some minor official, and have to work their way up the chain. They are instead surprised to be led into a stately conference room, seated at a table across from the Prime Minister of Japan. Seated silently at the head of the table, in a simple business suit that contrasts starkly with the fancy ceremonial garb he donned for the cameras just hours before, is Emperor Hirohito himself. "Our Hawaiian friends have told us what you have come here to propose," the Prime Minister says, through a translator, after exchanging pleasantries. "The simple truth is that your...organization...controls, through various means, over half of our planet. We would be fools not to consider your offer of trade. There will soon be few others left to trade with! That having been said, I must admit we approach this meeting with some...reservations. Our country has been subject to similar 'offers' of 'trade' in the past. It has been fewer than fifteen years since the special relationship with our American...'friends'...ended." Japan still officially recognizes one of the United States rump governments and in fact hosts its headquarters; to speak of them in such negative terms would be a grave insult and would never happen publicly. He produces a small ingot of grey metal. "Duranium, a product of our foundries. We make more of it every day, just as you do. This is the future. Space is the future. There are but two paths forward for us, and both of them lead to space. We can either go there as your subordinate or we can go there as your equal. I will waste no time bandying words. We will never be a colony again. We are joining you in this 'Trans-Newtonian Revolution', and we are going to space. Those are the terms we offer for any trade agreement." "More specifically, we offer the following: we will ensure that the United Nations formally recognizes the Comintern as a sovereign entity, and recognizes the territorial claims of its member nations. We will withdraw recognition for the United States Government-in-Exile, and will turn over their leadership and their remaining military assets, including twenty-four nuclear-tipped submarine-launched ballistic missiles in working order. We will encourage India to accept the trade agreement our agents tell us you are even now preparing to present to them. We will establish favorable trade relations with your organization and its member nations; goods, services, and," he laughs a little, "capital, will flow freely across our borders. We will freely share technology and information. We will serve as an example to the remaining neutral powers of Earth, encouraging them to do the same." "We will do all of this and more, in exchange for the following: You have access to orbital shipyards, while we currently do not. The Hawaiian Royal Space Agency is already preparing to construct for us one space vessel, contingent on the success of our negotiations here. Your organization will construct for us three more - one survey vessel of your 'Karzelek' class, and two freighters of your 'Berowra' class." Documents are spread across the table as he speaks - photographs of the ships in question, detailed schematics he really shouldn't have access to, cost breakdowns. "They will be purchased from the Comintern's shipyards by the Japanese state on behalf of the United Nations, payment in Trans-Newtonian elements, exact amounts to be negotiated. We have," he smirks, "some quantity of them. The ships will be turned over to the United Nations and will be operated independently of your organization. We will go to space. We will go to space as equals." "If we do not, than we will face a future where the only path forward is as your subordinate, and Japan will have no choice but to fight against that future tooth and nail. It is a fight you will win. Your organization has economic power, military power, political power. You would grind our Empire and all its friends in this world out of existence, if you had to. We have no illusions about that. But it is within our power to make your certain victory a very costly and very frustrating one. To destroy us will cost you a great deal - but to work together will gain both of us a great deal." "The Cold War is over, and we have no interest in resuming it. There is room in this future for both of us. That is all we want - a future, for both of us." Hours of discussion follow, and a few things are clarified - the most important is that this is not a take-it-or-leave-it offer and the Japanese are open to some negotiations, with one thing set in stone, non-negotiable: the Japanese want Trans-Newtonian spacecraft. Any trade deal we make, any diplomatic agreement we make, is predicated on that. They're open to the possibility of them going to the UN, they're open to the possibility of them being operated directly by JAXA, they're willing to negotiate the specifics of type, number, payment - but any agreement made with them must include 'ships' as part of the deal.
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Feb 16, 2021 09:50
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gently caress it, let's take their deal. Let's go one up on their deal, and suggest a conference with the Hawaiians, Indians, and the Japanese about joint human space defense. Share with them all of our findings about the Roswell aliens and the Cydonia outpost.
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Feb 16, 2021 09:56
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Yeah I think it's cards on the table time
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Feb 16, 2021 10:23
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Fivemarks posted:gently caress it, let's take their deal. Let's go one up on their deal, and suggest a conference with the Hawaiians, Indians, and the Japanese about joint human space defense. Share with them all of our findings about the Roswell aliens and the Cydonia outpost. Agreed. If there's anything that would convince them that we should not go it separately, but together, proof that there's a potential humanity-ending threat out there should do it.
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Feb 16, 2021 10:35
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I'm inclined to say to hell with them. You know what they're telling us? They're telling us they want an empire. They see space as a place to extend to, a place to colonize. Lunagrad is not some SSR and the nations of the stars will not be the subordinates to the states of earth. If they have the way to it, they'll just like a toad in a pond and draw in everything, making the heritage of mankind into an imperial periphery, a new kind of colonialism for the space age. And you know what they say to us? They say "we think the UAWR are the vassals of france, or china, or the soviets." They say that for everyone, from NOMAD to the Outer Banks to the Californian Republic. If we let this slide, we legitimize that. We say that being a member of the comintern makes you a subordinate, not an equal. We say that we're just a façade for the big three to rule behind. Just as importantly: those photos, the agents in the trade department? An almost implicit acknowledgement that they've been supporting Gladio. Kind of obvious, duh, but they're just straight up insulting us. Most importantly of all: they think they can buy us, too. Are we just the new face of tyranny? No! We're the comintern, the community of mankind.
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Feb 16, 2021 10:37
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I agree with NewMars to an extent, but I don't think anyone wishes to have a big war, or to start a cold one. If we can do some level of trade that benefits the people of Japan more so than their rulers, then that is something we should pursue. We should see how far we can go to ensure the betterment of all peoples, even those living under liberal or worse regimes.
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Feb 16, 2021 10:49
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NewMars posted:
I suppose it depends on what we achieve by showing them the potential for alien violence among the stars. If they agree this means a united front, and it feels as though diplomatic pressure and good treatment over years might bring them into the Comintern fold? Give them some line to run with. If it feels like this just makes them more determined to be space emperors? Deny them.
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Feb 16, 2021 10:53
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If we don't deal with them now, we'll have to deal with them when they're a spacefaring empire who are still bourgeoise capitalists, now flush on imperial ambition. But that being said, I would rather avoid a war too. I've got a proposal then. How about this: make the trade deal contingent on the repealing of anti trade union laws, anti-communist programs and the adoption of worker rights proposals?
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Feb 16, 2021 10:54
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They say they don’t want a new Cold War, but that’s likely what we’ll get if we say yes. They clearly view us as a threat, while (allowing for disagreement within the huge and disparate Comintern) our attitude towards them is at best suspicious. That won’t go away if we bring them into the Trans-Newtonian space age with us. At the same time, if we say no, it buys us a war of some kind. I think if we don’t reject them outright we should do our best to promote this as a gesture towards the United Nations and not towards Japan directly.
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Feb 16, 2021 11:03
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They can have it on three conditions plus the conditions proposed by NewMars: Hokkaido and the Ryukyu Islands are to undergo decolonization and are to be released as sovereign state once arrangements have been made. If the resultant states wishes to the join the comintern then the Japanese will not interfere in any way. The Ainu and Ryukyuans have been their subjects long enough. If they cannot swallow their pride enough to do that then there is no reason to negotiate.
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Feb 16, 2021 11:11
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The Kalmar Union agrees that further demands are necessary before we accept this trade. 'Normal' trade is fine with any nation that are not hostile to ComIntern, but trade of ships and technology on this level I'd say is only for those who are aligned with ComIntern beliefs and values, so if Japan wants to remain independent fine, we won't force them. But if they want ships, technology, and a full partnership? They better embrace leftist ideals in a major way beforehand.
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Feb 16, 2021 11:17
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Pirate Radar posted:They say they don’t want a new Cold War, but that’s likely what we’ll get if we say yes. They clearly view us as a threat, while (allowing for disagreement within the huge and disparate Comintern) our attitude towards them is at best suspicious. That won’t go away if we bring them into the Trans-Newtonian space age with us. At the same time, if we say no, it buys us a war of some kind. I think if we don’t reject them outright we should do our best to promote this as a gesture towards the United Nations and not towards Japan directly. We can afford to view them with suspicion because we have the stronger hand. In truth I do not believe that Japan or any other of the old "nation states" can really compete with us even as a combined force, and as such they act as if we are already the aggressor. It is what they would do in our place. However we can show that we are not like them. The arguments against giving them space flight is that they will set up empires. Whilst that could be so we cannot truly prevent them from launching spaceflight of their own. They will do so with the help of the Hawaiians and will no doubt reach some level of space flight eventually. We can extend a hand towards the people of Japan at the same time that we are dealing with their rulers in a more "hard nosed" manner. I will leave the negotiation to those amongst you who are more understanding of these matters, but as one additional item. It is interesting how much Japan seemingly wishes to divest themselves of the United States in almost all ways. It would be extremely interesting to have a fly on the wall to imagine how much difficulty they are causing. Josef bugman fucked around with this message at 11:24 on Feb 16, 2021 |
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Feb 16, 2021 11:18
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I do want to make it clear that the absolute last thing the UAWR wants is a war. What we want is guarantees of an end to leftist suppression within the nation of Japan. Plus the decolonization thing, that's good too.
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Feb 16, 2021 11:22
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NewMars posted:I do want to make it clear that the absolute last thing the UAWR wants is a war. What we want is guarantees of an end to leftist suppression within the nation of Japan. Plus the decolonization thing, that's good too. I don't believe that they are suppressed? From what we know: Mister Bates posted:Japan, which was almost entirely undamaged by the war, has managed to chart a careful course. They have mostly appeased the Japanese Communist Party and other socialist groups (a significant minority in the Japanese political landscape) by enacting sweeping social and economic reforms and pursuing a policy of official neutrality with the Comintern, while at the same time massively expanding the JSDF, taking in exiles from America and other capitalist powers, and reinforcing the power of the central government. The Japanese mainland is effectively unassailable militarily, and their economy remains fairly strong (they're pretty much the only remaining non-Comintern power with a developed high-tech industrial sector). What's left of the United Nations is headquartered in Osaka.
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Feb 16, 2021 11:27
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We mustn't compromise with capitalists and imperialists. What we should do is delete them as soon as possible and welcome the Japanese and Hawaiian people into the Comintern.
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Feb 16, 2021 11:35
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Remember that they have nukes, lots of them, apparently. No war with nuclear powers, again, please!
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Feb 16, 2021 11:42
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NewMars posted:Remember that they have nukes, lots of them, apparently. No war with nuclear powers, again, please! Then we tell them to stick their proposition where the sun don't bloody shine and come back to them when we have TN anti-missile ships, stations or troops.
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Feb 16, 2021 11:49
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I don’t think war is a good idea, especially not at this time. Incidentally, if we share information about Mars with Japan, are we prepared for them to demand access to the facility as well?
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Feb 16, 2021 11:51
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Sanev.Khan posted:Then we tell them to stick their proposition where the sun don't bloody shine and come back to them when we have TN anti-missile ships, stations or troops. How many lives should all sides lose in order to justify this? If we can reach some manner of agreement that involves the creation of more free people then that is all to the good and simply responding with force is not the only option available to us.
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Feb 16, 2021 11:51
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Cards on the table time. We can't afford another war now, hot or cold or in 50 years time with a Space IJN colonizing the system with potentially two alien threats to humanity.
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Feb 16, 2021 11:54
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Sanev.Khan posted:Then we tell them to stick their proposition where the sun don't bloody shine and come back to them when we have TN anti-missile ships, stations or troops. The logic of deterrence comes into play here—if they see us building missile defenses and recognize that their advantage could be erased, they’ll see it as a sign of our plans to attack and use the weapons while they still can.
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Feb 16, 2021 11:55
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Pirate Radar posted:I don’t think war is a good idea, especially not at this time. Incidentally, if we share information about Mars with Japan, are we prepared for them to demand access to the facility as well? You know what? No. Remember, they are one nation. They are not a superpower, they are not a representative, they are a single nation. And this is why, despite everything, it may very well be best to turn them down flat. The comintern is the community of all of earth, that's why it has spaceships. Giving ships to them already says that a nation doesn't need to be part of the comintern and may very well splinter us.
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Feb 16, 2021 11:55
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Josef bugman posted:How many lives should all sides lose in order to justify this? And how many will we let their capitalists kill in their own country and abroad when they, as capitalism always does, export misery to other poorer countries? They are also "reinforcing the power of the central government" which I would call definitely not good in a literal empire. The proposal to research/design/build armed spaceships was already passed, they'd be capable of shooting down incoming missiles. In the old Aurora, they could've also been used against ICBMs, I don't know how that'll work here since ICBMs are technically gone from the game. When we have absolute space superiority and the capability to destroy Earth targets, we could just force them to surrender. The alternative is of course that we let capitalism dirty space forever, I'd put that as a "hard no". I'd put that as worse than a space war with space Japan in fifty years.
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Feb 16, 2021 11:57
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That smirk regarding having lots of TNE is making me suspicious. Either Japan is so bereft of normal resources (coal, iron, etc.) because they're sitting on the motherlode of TNEs instead, or they've been able to secure additional sources for those materials somehow. Either way it would behoove us to investigate further before we agree to anything. After all Japan going into space is not the end of the world as long as we ensure they treat their workers fairly and do not establish new oppressive regimes amongst the stars. But if they're being backed by Gladio or other capitalist/imperialist power structures in secret and have long term plans to bring down the new socialist future we are embarked upon then we must stop them. Even if it may eventually mean War.
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Feb 16, 2021 12:04
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Sanev.Khan posted:And how many will we let their capitalists kill in their own country and abroad when they, as capitalism always does, export misery to other poorer countries? The other nations are, with the exception of a very small number, based in Comintern nations. Very few nations have the ability to project force beyond their borders at this point in time because, well, hundreds of thousands have died in horrific wars already. I do not think that it is right to throw away the lives of brave and good comrades at a problem that can be solved, at least in part, through negotiation and diplomacy. They will reach space. The Hawaiians will work with them and will prevent us from having space superiority for the simple reason that we would be attacking people from space. It is all well to claim that we can do these things, but I do not believe it is the best use of the potential that we possess here. The points that I appreciate and believe are good starters for negotiation are the release of Japan's occupied areas, and the idea that we can help them but we will not simply "grant" them space flight. We will help their people, not the ones in charge. It would be not unexpected that Japan may end up in the situation we were in with Luna but will respond far more poorly then we can simply swoop in to assist their voyagers through space.
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Feb 16, 2021 12:06
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Eeeh, the UAWR is for detente, the three points from before, plus decolonization. That's the official stance.
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Feb 16, 2021 12:09
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If they reject that offer it would only be because they seek present glory instead of future prosperity. Their response will show us who they are and what they stand for.
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Feb 16, 2021 12:10
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Josef bugman posted:I don't believe that they are suppressed? From what we know: If this is the case, then switch demands to more sweeping, intensive reforms: collective bargaining, baseline protections, guaranteed minimum income, basically all the good stuff that tips the scales against capitalism.
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Feb 16, 2021 12:17
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