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Jaeluni Asjil posted:<RANT> Nothing can ever be delivered to do something good or positive, it has to be to stop someone doing something or, worse, getting away with something. See voter ID to solve a non-issue as opposed to ID that actually allows you to do something good you couldn't before like digitally sign documents. e: 1990 - British companies ship parts of a big tube to Iraq but can't come up with any good reasons why Iraq wants big tube technology. Guavanaut fucked around with this message at 15:45 on Feb 17, 2021 |
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Feb 17, 2021 15:42
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Julio Cruz posted:by far the biggest political society at my uni was Conservative Future, but then I went to Exeter so CENSORED, for their CONSERVATIVE OPINIONS, you might say ...yes, those Conservative opinions
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Feb 17, 2021 15:45
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Gonzo McFee posted:So does anyone know the legality of being hit with an eviction notice during an eviction ban? Can they just gamble that it'll all be by soon so the eviction date will be legal or do they have to wait until there is an actual lifting of the eviction ban? if your "friends" are trying to evict someone during a loving pandemic then I might suggest they stop being friends pretty loving sharpish
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Feb 17, 2021 15:46
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Every person I lived with or talked to about politics in Uni was a communist or socialist. Though I did overhear a conversation in the library in 2019 with one person saying that she struggled knowing who to vote for, though if David Cameron was still around she could have at least had an easy choice because he is handsome. I was eavesdropping this conversation because it was funny and as far as I could tell she was completely serious.
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Feb 17, 2021 15:47
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Julio Cruz posted:if your "friends" are trying to evict someone during a loving pandemic then I might suggest they stop being friends pretty loving sharpish Ah well you see they aren't my friends, they are in fact my letting agency who won't answer the loving phone and that's just not what friends do to each other.
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Feb 17, 2021 15:49
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Say what you will about Cameron, he definitely hosed a dead pig.
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Feb 17, 2021 15:49
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Guavanaut posted:Say what you will about Cameron, he definitely hosed a dead pig. so did ian hislop lol
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Feb 17, 2021 15:58
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Chatrapati posted:if David Cameron was still around she could have at least had an easy choice because he is handsome. Sorry what the gently caress kind of freak a: thinks cameron is handsome and b: picks him over ed loving milliband on that metric? I don't even particularly like milliband but if we're going by rate at which I would kick people out of bed he's certainly doing better than loving cameron. Granted corbyn's old so maybe that's a limiting factor but he's also ripped so he still wins out over cameron.
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Feb 17, 2021 15:58
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OwlFancier posted:You could try to do that, yes, but I don't think you would manage to achieve enough to change the result. I think that a lot of people quite sincerely believe (and possibly not incorrectly) that in a choice between appeasing the brexit brigade and... not doing that, remaining in the EU is decidedly the better choice. Borrovan posted:Important to put in context imo that we're only so sure now that a second referendum was such a terrible idea with the benefit of hindsight. Personally, I thought it was a bad idea, until it became apparent that there was absolutely no way the centrists would allow a soft Brexit/customs union/whatever. That was the most likely way of stopping a hard Brexit, and when it became apparent that that was impossible, it was either digging our heels in knowing that we'd get whatever Boris wanted regardless, or a long shot at a 2nd ref. Imo the long shot was a fair gamble because of how much we stood to lose, even if it was very unlikely to happen, and (with the benefit of hindsight) worked out very badly for us. OwlFancier posted:I mean... I'm sure when they polled it the labour party was overwhelmingly remain... At what point do you accept that the desire to be a part of the EU for whatever reason is a central value for the labour party? Given that it also tracks very strongly with age and we supposedly want to capitalize on the political energy of the young I don't really see how you can flick a switch and say "ok we want the anticapitalism but you have to make nice with the kippers because they won" i'm sorry, this is the same behaviour i called out upthread - these are all variants on "brexit is a racist endeavour" - which, again, no one was arguing was incorrect. but the sociopolitical reality of the situation was that argument needed to be made before we lost the vote, and i'm sorry - the characterization that this was hindsight and that oh who could have possibly known is also very revisionist. here i am in 2019 CoolCab posted:it is seriously melting my brain that people are looking at an election where the leave party utterly dominated and deciding now is the time for labour to go hard remain. why do you think may just spent several years trying to pin labour to remain - because it's loving unpopular. i am far from a loving political genius but apparently my ability to read the words written on the walls is unusual but it's two years later and we'd still lose another referendum. i would argue in a sense we did on december 13th, 2019, eight months after this post. i do not say this because i wanted to leave nor because i have any affiliation to the brexit party (????) but the dull, observable reality of citizens in a democracy is that they react negatively to their vote being negated. and given one of the champions of the people's vote has currently purged corbyn from the party, voted for the brexit deal and otherwise has behaved exactly like it was a partisan pain point to remove a rival rather than anything relating to ideals about the EU, i have to be critical here. i don't find it all that functional to dig up much more of me saying this but there's plenty. the youth broke hard for a policy that was electoral suicide - and hey with hindsight i can add, demonstrably - and it's part of the role of parties and leaders to blunt that on occasion - it was the archetypical good-for-the-members hated-by-the-electorate policy. otherwise we would not have parties. i literally cannot envision a worse electoral outcome for the party than what has happened and if you'd like to pull a hillary 2016 and point to the scoreboard you ran up in places it was irrelevant then i will be even more critical.
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Feb 17, 2021 15:59
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Gonzo McFee posted:Ah well you see they aren't my friends, they are in fact my letting agency who won't answer the loving phone and that's just not what friends do to each other. Have they given you at least 6 months' notice? Edit: here's the process they need to follow, so check they haven't missed anything and have used the correct form etc https://england.shelter.org.uk/housing_advice/eviction/section_21_eviction/section_21_eviction_process Niric fucked around with this message at 16:03 on Feb 17, 2021 |
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Feb 17, 2021 16:01
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Who are these people that go to university thinking "ah, I will be able to debate fellow great minds on the issues of the day in intellectual discourse"? I mean, conservatives obviously but it's such a loving wild mindset to be going into uni with. It sounds like they would be happier in Mensa. Jamie Loftus did a podcast about her brush with them, it's on spotify. (Spoiler alert, it seems to be a magnet for these conservative, "debate me" shitlords at various points of the neo-reactionary pipeline).
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Feb 17, 2021 16:02
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Julio Cruz posted:by far the biggest political society at my uni was Conservative Future, but then I went to Exeter so Private Speech posted:England today is the kind of place where you can be raped (or indeed your children can be raped) by an agent of the state and have no legal recourse available. * With complete impunity anyway
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Feb 17, 2021 16:02
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If you don't like people campaigning for things they like but which keep losing elections I don't think leftism is for you.
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Feb 17, 2021 16:03
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OwlFancier posted:If you don't like people campaigning for things they like but which keep losing elections I don't think leftism is for you. no, i think needing to genuinely respect people's decisions and agency, even when i disagree with them, and analyse them from a perspective of class and address them from that direction, is what makes me a leftist. that's why i could easily have persuasive conversations with voters who voted leave but we needed if we had ever any hope of winning a government - i had quite a few of them in 2017 and 2019, and i can assure you in a quantifiable sense the single biggest difference was the absolute fury about the perception that their vote was being ignored in 2019. the amount of times that i heard that they needed to vote conservative for their 2016 vote to count was staggering, or that with labour we'd have an endless succession of referenda until "we got the result we wanted". part of respecting the working class is listening to them and trying to guide them based on what you hear - not telling them what to do. anyone would resent the latter - you resent the latter.
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Feb 17, 2021 16:10
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Which therefore puts them wholly at odds with the people who want to participate in the labour party...? I thought I explained it pretty thoroughly that not wanting to accomodate those people is entirely reasonable and if the overwhelming majority of people in the labour party membership want to die on that hill it is their prerogative? It is them or us, and I see no reason to fault us for not wanting to pander to them, my only regret is that their stupidity won't make more of them suffer. If I am picking between those two materially opposed groups to respect, I am picking the people who don't think nigel farage is their ideal politician. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 16:20 on Feb 17, 2021 |
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Feb 17, 2021 16:13
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My upstairs neighbours recently had an extremely loud party with multiple guests arriving through the night, to the point where people were stopping outside the house wondering whether to call the police. And I snitched them to their landlord during an unrelated call where she asked if they're quiet. Now I feel bad but at the same time kinda justified tbh.
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Feb 17, 2021 16:14
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Isomermaid posted:Who are these people that go to university thinking "ah, I will be able to debate fellow great minds on the issues of the day in intellectual discourse"? I mean, conservatives obviously but it's such a loving wild mindset to be going into uni with. CoolCab posted:i'm sorry, this is the same behaviour i called out upthread - these are all variants on "brexit is a racist endeavour" - which, again, no one was arguing was incorrect. but the sociopolitical reality of the situation was that argument needed to be made before we lost the vote, and i'm sorry - the characterization that this was hindsight and that oh who could have possibly known is also very revisionist. here i am in 2019 That might have been a very dangerous road to go down though, with unforseen consequences, but I do wish they'd stop making it quite so tempting all the loving time: https://twitter.com/alexandreafonso/status/1361950213934616579
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Feb 17, 2021 16:15
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Sov cit lady ended up with a suspended sentence and a manageable costs order.
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Feb 17, 2021 16:17
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Private Speech posted:And I snitched them to their landlord during an unrelated call where she asked if they're quiet. As long as you CC'd in the GMC I think you're probably fine.
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Feb 17, 2021 16:19
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OwlFancier posted:Which therefore puts them wholly at odds with the people who want to participate in the labour party...? I thought I explained it pretty thoroughly that not wanting to accomodate those people is entirely reasonable and if the overwhelming majority of people in the labour party membership want to die on that hill it is their prerogative? given the champion of that particular cause is currently very happily on that hill and the one person who was willing to see it as a total mistake died there, i have to question that implication. in fact, i would characterize it very differently - that a bunch of liberals picked up a poisoned chalice, wrote about a thousand op eds about how "Only By Drinking This Great Chalice Can We Truely Represent The People's Will" and a bunch of saps followed it. oh, then refused to drink from it after it had done its factional job at which point the commentariat switched to "You Know Maybe Drinking This Poison Might Have Some Problems" and "Drinking This Chalice Was A Lovely Ideal We'll Return To Soon." e: follow back poison chalice
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Feb 17, 2021 16:22
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OwlFancier posted:Granted corbyn's old so maybe that's a limiting factor but he's also ripped so he still wins out over cameron. CoolCab posted:i'm sorry, this is the same behaviour i called out upthread - these are all variants on "brexit is a racist endeavour" - which, again, no one was arguing was incorrect. but the sociopolitical reality of the situation was that argument needed to be made before we lost the vote, and i'm sorry - the characterization that this was hindsight and that oh who could have possibly known is also very revisionist. here i am in 2019 e: Necrothatcher posted:Sov cit lady ended up with a suspended sentence and a manageable costs order. Borrovan fucked around with this message at 16:29 on Feb 17, 2021 |
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Feb 17, 2021 16:26
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That makes zero sense given that labour members were strongly remain all the way up to the referendum and subsequently. I don't get where this idea comes from that people cannot sincerely believe that the EU represents some sort of internationalism and also constitutes a left wing influence on the UK compared to the tories. Because compared to the brexit platform both of those things are true. These are overwhelmingly people who grew up with the EU, probably went to university and met people from europe, probably have people they talk or watch online from europe, maybe they just like europe. You don't need to go to this effort to try and paint the true working class who we must listen to as the ones who supported johnson and farage.
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Feb 17, 2021 16:26
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CoolCab posted:e: follow back poison chalice "Poisoned ewer" was right there, man.
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Feb 17, 2021 16:36
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Isomermaid posted:Who are these people that go to university thinking "ah, I will be able to debate fellow great minds on the issues of the day in intellectual discourse"? I mean, conservatives obviously but it's such a loving wild mindset to be going into uni with. Me? I grew up on the Isle of Man, and I really hoped that going to university would put me in contact with people who actually enjoyed talking about maths and physics. Was pretty disappointed TBH. I was also in MENSA as a kid, although this was before the internet so I wasn't aware of how lovely they were. Got some pretty decent books of logic puzzles but that's about it CoolCab posted:no, i think needing to genuinely respect people's decisions and agency, even when i disagree with them, and analyse them from a perspective of class and address them from that direction, is what makes me a leftist. that's why i could easily have persuasive conversations with voters who voted leave but we needed if we had ever any hope of winning a government - i had quite a few of them in 2017 and 2019, and i can assure you in a quantifiable sense the single biggest difference was the absolute fury about the perception that their vote was being ignored in 2019. the amount of times that i heard that they needed to vote conservative for their 2016 vote to count was staggering, or that with labour we'd have an endless succession of referenda until "we got the result we wanted". Yeah, as someone else who had a lot of doorstep conversations in the run up to 2019, Labour's policy was absolutely unsellable, whatever other merits it may have had. Not sure what the right direction would have been but what we ended up with was toxic to just about everyone. e: Jedit posted:"Poisoned ewer" was right there, man. Poisoned var.
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Feb 17, 2021 16:38
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Full Brimming Piss Envelope
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Feb 17, 2021 16:43
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Borrovan posted:
i guess i am most objecting to the characterization it missed. it didn't, at all - it hit the target right between the eyes. that many of the people voting for it didn't even know who it was aimed at was part of the problem. OwlFancier posted:That makes zero sense given that labour members were strongly remain all the way up to the referendum and subsequently. again! this is not an argument about the actual, literal experience we both lived through where such a policy was suicidal and in fact dramatically worsened brexit but instead it's about the character of the brexit referendum - like, if you'd like a time machine so you can go argue with them i entirely support the effort? the belief that we could have run it again, and would have won it loving somehow - in sharp contrast to literally birthing a political party called Brexit to run against Labour candidates the microsecond we even vaguely came out in favour of another referendum - is more important. which of course the labour right understood far better than you did, apparently.
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Feb 17, 2021 16:45
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In general I think that the second option was not the best and we should have stuck with the somewhat ambiguous stance that we had in 2017 whilst also doing down the Tory version as insane and the lib-dem one as based on nothing. I don't think that that idea appealed to most Labour members though.CoolCab posted:the belief that we could have run it again, and would have won it loving somehow - in sharp contrast to literally birthing a political party called Brexit to run against Labour candidates the microsecond we even vaguely came out in favour of another referendum - is more important. which of course the labour right understood far better than you did, apparently. You do realise that they would have run against Labour anyway, right? Like you seem to be placing a lot of belief in the honesty of Nigel Farage here.
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Feb 17, 2021 16:47
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CoolCab posted:again! this is not an argument about the actual, literal experience we both lived through where such a policy was suicidal and in fact dramatically worsened brexit but instead it's about the character of the brexit referendum - like, if you'd like a time machine so you can go argue with them i entirely support the effort? You are completely ignoring the entire point, it doesn't loving matter what you or I think. The second referendum and remain position in general was a position pushed by the membership. It passed at conference twice, it is what labour members wanted, by every quantifiable measure. You and, as far as I am concerned, the leadership also, do not have the authority to tell the membership what it should or shouldn't want. And your apparent greater concern with pandering to brexiters than with people in the party who wanted to remain identifying the current leadership and the liberals as their enemies as clearly as the right, on the basis that they sold out their entirely legitimate political desires, does not do you any favours, though I would be lying if I said I was surprised. People had the right to have their platform represented, whether it was going to win or not. That is the entire point of being involved in a political party. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 16:55 on Feb 17, 2021 |
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Feb 17, 2021 16:52
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Niric posted:Have they given you at least 6 months' notice? Three, but they can't enforce it unless the eviction ban comes off so basically so long as Covid is here it's a polite request. https://twitter.com/siennamarla/status/1362058784739311618 https://twitter.com/siennamarla/status/1362062791952240641 lmao
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Feb 17, 2021 16:52
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Josef bugman posted:In general I think that the second option was not the best and we should have stuck with the somewhat ambiguous stance that we had in 2017 whilst also doing down the Tory version as insane and the lib-dem one as based on nothing. I don't think that that idea appealed to most Labour members though. It was also proving electorally disasterous - the 2019 Euro and Local elections were both very bad for Labour and saw Lib Dems and Greens do very well. It was pretty clear strategic ambiguity had run its course at that point and the PLP and membership (not to mention the majority of Labour voters) were simply not going to go for a harder brexit stance. Don't forget that this is the time period of all the votes as well, it was clear at this point that soft brexit was not going to pass a commons vote and the possible options were polarising to hard brexit or remain after another referendum. Also the remain turn for Labour was there before Keith ever piped up - people who say he was responsible for the turn to a second referendum are simply stating bad history.
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Feb 17, 2021 16:55
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If you thought that Labour could have won with a remain/second vote stance then it's reasonable to defend that, but if, as CoolCab believed and turned out to be true, that those policies would torpedo Labour then continuing to defend them as the right thing seems like a Bad Idea. It doesn't matter if you're right if you lose. It doesn't matter if you win if you're wrong. You have to be right and win to make a positive difference, but you might not be able to be right about everything. I'd argue the EU is one of the those issues that Labour could be 'wrong' on and go full 'better Brexit' because it isn't anywhere near as important as the raft of issues they're far more right on.
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Feb 17, 2021 16:56
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Gonzo McFee posted:lmao
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Feb 17, 2021 16:57
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Gonzo McFee posted:Three, but they can't enforce it unless the eviction ban comes off so basically so long as Covid is here it's a polite request. Big ol' pinch of salt, obviously, but if I'm right then the best practical advice is to ignore it to delay them correcting their mistake
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Feb 17, 2021 16:59
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Jakabite posted:If you thought that Labour could have won with a remain/second vote stance then it's reasonable to defend that, but if, as CoolCab believed and turned out to be true, that those policies would torpedo Labour then continuing to defend them as the right thing seems like a Bad Idea. It doesn't matter if you're right if you lose. It doesn't matter if you win if you're wrong. You have to be right and win to make a positive difference, but you might not be able to be right about everything. I'd argue the EU is one of the those issues that Labour could be 'wrong' on and go full 'better Brexit' because it isn't anywhere near as important as the raft of issues they're far more right on. Okay, the thing is though that they might have been bad politics but they might have been the correct thing to do. The highlighted bit is exactly the same as all the centrists on twitter, but from the opposite side. I don't think it's necessarily even an incorrect point to make, but just because you are willing to jettison certain things doesn't mean a lot of people are in the same boat. That's fair. It's just unfortunate and I do think that if the Lib-dems had had another leader they might have shown an ounce of nounce and we'd not be in the mess atm. Ahh well, what could have been. Josef bugman fucked around with this message at 17:03 on Feb 17, 2021 |
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Feb 17, 2021 17:01
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Josef bugman posted:In general I think that the second option was not the best and we should have stuck with the somewhat ambiguous stance that we had in 2017 whilst also doing down the Tory version as insane and the lib-dem one as based on nothing. I don't think that that idea appealed to most Labour members though. did he in 2017? (he didn't) OwlFancier posted:You are completely ignoring the entire point, it doesn't loving matter what you or I think. The second referendum and remain position in general was a position pushed by the membership. It passed at conference twice, it is what labour members wanted, by every quantifiable measure. You and, as far as I am concerned, the leadership also, do not have the authority to tell the membership what it should or shouldn't want. And your apparent greater concern with pandering to brexiters than with people in the party who wanted to remain identifying the current leadership and the liberals as their enemies as clearly as the right who sold out their entirely legitimate political desires, does not do you any favours, though I would be lying if I said I was surprised. people have every right to have their platform represented and i have every right to be critical of it - much like if current labour pushed the Abolish Labour Permanently and Have The Membership Boiled policy because otherwise they might lose support in the cities my reaction would be "we wouldn't win any additional elections if we didn't exist, and were boiled". We could talk about the legitimacy of our desire to be boiled until the cows came home it - even if Nigel Farage came out and said "boy if Labour boiled themselves I can't envision the conservatives coming back from that", even if every paper put out an op ed about how not being boiled was holding back the youth's future - none of these things would be relevant to the reason i am critical. and boy howdy it would be really dishonest to describe kier starmer as a liberal or somehow less than entirely truthful, lmao
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Feb 17, 2021 17:01
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just rename the labour party the no corbyns club
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Feb 17, 2021 17:01
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This "remain/2nd ref was all a liberal plot" rubbish also entirely ignores the fact that whatever the outcome of a 2nd referendum it was also intended to create a mandate for a labour brexit deal because a major point of contention at the time was that there were a million possibilities of what brexit could be because the first referendum was a complete shitshow of promising everything to everyone. The idea of negotiating a deal and then putting it to a vote would have been extremely important to neutralize the (as others have pointed out) heavily insurgent remain/libdem effort in the event that labour won. And don't come out with "they should have just made up a brexit deal and run on that" because the entire point is they couldn't do that because it would depend on the outcome of negotiations with the EU. Politics certainly gets a lot easier if you just completely ignore all the actual things that happened that might weaken your argument. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 17:04 on Feb 17, 2021 |
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Feb 17, 2021 17:01
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https://twitter.com/BBCBreaking/status/1362043007881592837 Reckon he drove himself there?
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Feb 17, 2021 17:02
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more like ian pissplop  put that on your hilarious, biting, satirical, top BBC topical panel comedy show!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Feb 17, 2021 17:05
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CoolCab posted:and boy howdy it would be really dishonest to describe kier starmer as a liberal or somehow less than entirely truthful, lmao Do you think that it was all a trick played on the membership? Your apparent take is that the Brexit party couldn't possibly have run against Labour if they had also been for Brexit, appears to ignore the wishes of the membership of a party that is trying to democratise because it gave the wrong result and believes that the Lib Dems and Greens would not have picked up people in the shuffle if Labour had changed tack? I know it's not really possible to prove a negative and we have to live in the world as it exists, but do you not see how this might sound a little naive to people? Josef bugman fucked around with this message at 17:11 on Feb 17, 2021 |
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Feb 17, 2021 17:07
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