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Right now it costs us nothing to at least continue talks and allow for comintern diplomats to make counter-proposals; the deal on the table now is just their initial offer, and we should at least see how far we can go with it and how many more concessions we can push for. The worst that happens is that we end up back at the current status quo.
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Feb 17, 2021 14:58
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It wouldn't cost us anything to string them along a little while with negotiations, giving us time to get some scanners in place to verify their stocks of TNE materials, and preferably until after the initial meeting with the Indian government to gauge their reaction to us, see if we actually need Japan's 'good word' to make headway with them.
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Feb 17, 2021 15:10
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We should also consider whether we want to pause and wait until our Indian delegation makes contact before continuing any conversation. It may not make sense to have two parallel agreements as opposed to a common framework. The other vague notion I'll present to the body: on further reflection, the real question at the heart of our relationship with Japan is whether we can escape the security dilemma we are currently trapped in. They correctly see the status quo as an existential threat--without our assistance to bootstrap their space program ASAP, the half decade lead we have will guarantee our enduring strategic hegemony. Their proposal is a viable short term release valve, but it won't actually solve the underlying dilemma. The next time we make a leap and start outpacing them again, we would have to assume they would start making threats again. So aside from communist revolution, how do we escape the security dilemma?
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Feb 17, 2021 15:24
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That was one of the reasons I suggested the decolonization of Ryukuan and Ainu lands by Japan. That sort of thing won't happen overnight. It will take years and it will tie Japan up with it more than it will us and it shows that anyone else seeking to get in our good graces is going to have to sacrifice some of their imperial ambitions, which will be a blow to the prestige and pride of the capitalists who run things. It will quickly sort the hardliners from the moderates and "progressives", alienating them from each other and allowing us to sort which ones can be more easily swayed to our line of thinking over the years. Yes it sucks for the Japanese worker that we cannot simply deliver them from the thrall of capitalism now but a war of attrition will do that and worse to both them and us. Until such a time that we can decisively counter any threats of nuclear hell, we should and must negotiate. That does not mean we're not going to make their capitalist masters get anything easily.
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Feb 17, 2021 15:37
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The other reason the deoclonization demand is important, and why it should actually be very publicly reported on as a demand the Comintern made, is because Japan's whole line of diplomatic attack is going to be "You're just another empire!" So it is good to have them on the record as refusing to dismantle their own empire.
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Feb 17, 2021 15:43
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We should tell the Japanese to go shove off. They chose to dictate demands to us from the mouth of a war criminal, and the Comintern wants to give them everything they want? I'm sorry, if the Comintern is seriously going to capitulate with them this way, then the Comintern is already betraying the people and the revolution.
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Feb 17, 2021 16:00
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Fivemarks posted:We should tell the Japanese to go shove off. They chose to dictate demands to us from the mouth of a war criminal, and the Comintern wants to give them everything they want? I'm sorry, if the Comintern is seriously going to capitulate with them this way, then the Comintern is already betraying the people and the revolution. Fivemarks posted:gently caress it, let's take their deal. Let's go one up on their deal, and suggest a conference with the Hawaiians, Indians, and the Japanese about joint human space defense. Share with them all of our findings about the Roswell aliens and the Cydonia outpost. Can anyone here make up their minds?
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Feb 17, 2021 16:04
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Asterite34 posted:Can anyone here make up their minds? I thought about it and remembered that I'm not in a place that will ban me for promoting genocide for saying that Colonialism is bad. Also gently caress the Japanese claims of being colonized. They got to undergo a massive economic and social boom under the American Nuclear Aegis. If that's what colonization is, then that's a better loving deal than any other colonized people have ever gotten.
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Feb 17, 2021 16:07
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Fivemarks posted:I thought about it and remembered that I'm not in a place that will ban me for promoting genocide for saying that Colonialism is bad. Also gently caress the Japanese claims of being colonized. They got to undergo a massive economic and social boom under the American Nuclear Aegis. If that's what colonization is, then that's a better loving deal than any other colonized people have ever gotten. Fair enough, and that's not a BAD stance to have, but good Lord I feel like I'm being gaslighted with multiple mutually exclusive extremist views one after another for the past two days, often from the same people hours apart.
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Feb 17, 2021 16:10
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New Afrika will not support collaboration with the Capitalists and Imperialists of Japan. Given how we had to fight off a genocide attempt and free some of our ethnic nationals from concentration and death camps, we're firmly on the hardline side of things. No capitulation to imperialist demands. If they want to negotiate, they can negotiate, but what they've offered isn't a negotiation, its an ultimatum.
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Feb 17, 2021 16:14
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Asterite34 posted:Fair enough, and that's not a BAD stance to have, but good Lord I feel like I'm being gaslighted with multiple mutually exclusive extremist views one after another for the past two days, often from the same people hours apart. Wait! That’s it! What if we gaslight Japan?
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Feb 17, 2021 16:15
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Pirate Radar posted:Wait! That’s it! What if we gaslight Japan? So, we act tsundere to them?
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Feb 17, 2021 16:17
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Fivemarks posted:New Afrika will not support collaboration with the Capitalists and Imperialists of Japan. Given how we had to fight off a genocide attempt and free some of our ethnic nationals from concentration and death camps, we're firmly on the hardline side of things. No capitulation to imperialist demands. If they want to negotiate, they can negotiate, but what they've offered isn't a negotiation, its an ultimatum. Mister Bates posted:Hours of discussion follow, and a few things are clarified - the most important is that this is not a take-it-or-leave-it offer and the Japanese are open to some negotiations, with one thing set in stone, non-negotiable: the Japanese want Trans-Newtonian spacecraft. Any trade deal we make, any diplomatic agreement we make, is predicated on that. They're open to the possibility of them going to the UN, they're open to the possibility of them being operated directly by JAXA, they're willing to negotiate the specifics of type, number, payment - but any agreement made with them must include 'ships' as part of the deal. The only inflexible demand they are making going by this is that we sell them ships (potentially any ships, we could possibly make an agreement to sell them older designs) - which to be honest I'd imagine they will develop themselves at some point in the future, likely soon. We don't know how feasible it would be for them to keep pace with us, technologically or in the case of TNEs (I'm guessing that even if they do have a larger than average amount of them, it's probably dwarfed by the comintern's total resources on and outside of Earth). Disproportionation fucked around with this message at 16:36 on Feb 17, 2021 |
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Feb 17, 2021 16:30
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Disproportionation posted:which to be honest I'd imagine they will develop themselves at some point in the future, likely soon. We don't know how feasible it would be for them to keep pace with us, technologically or in the case of TNEs The Comintern's manufacturing (TN) sector currently employs nearly twice as many people as there were total in OTL Japan in 1985. Anything we offer them would take them decades to get on their own, probably, barring GM fiat. I doubt they can offer us anything that'd take the Comintern multiple decades to get. One of Aurora's basic rules on planets with a colony cost of 0 like Earth is 5% of the population works in agriculture, 70% in service and 25% in manufacturing/TN, adjusted a bit for lower populations. Japan alone couldn't even staff as many labs as we have, not to mention all the needed mines and factories to build the shipyards and ships, and the refineries for fuel. With the rest of the non-Comintern (though it seems the Arab League doesn't side with them? Some of them are in the Comintern already after all), maybe it'd all fit, but we have a five year headstart, started with I think more than they'd have right now, and the government of their most populated country, India, just caved in to demands of their communist and socialist parties. If they lose India, they'll be in an even worse shape.
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Feb 17, 2021 18:06
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Sanev.Khan posted:The Comintern's manufacturing (TN) sector currently employs nearly twice as many people as there were total in OTL Japan in 1985. Anything we offer them would take them decades to get on their own, probably, barring GM fiat. I doubt they can offer us anything that'd take the Comintern multiple decades to get. One of Aurora's basic rules on planets with a colony cost of 0 like Earth is 5% of the population works in agriculture, 70% in service and 25% in manufacturing/TN, adjusted a bit for lower populations. Japan alone couldn't even staff as many labs as we have, not to mention all the needed mines and factories to build the shipyards and ships, and the refineries for fuel. This is a fair point, even in the optimistic view, Japan's industry and science output is absolutely dwarfed by the Comintern's collective resources, anything they offer is either a drop in the bucket OR will utterly cripple their economy to try and match. As funny as it would be for them to break their own backs trying to impress us, massive economic depression caused by payments to a foreign power don't exactly breed a friendly demeanor. Thankfully, we may be able to broaden this a bit Mister Bates posted:Hours of discussion follow, and a few things are clarified - the most important is that this is not a take-it-or-leave-it offer and the Japanese are open to some negotiations, with one thing set in stone, non-negotiable: the Japanese want Trans-Newtonian spacecraft. Any trade deal we make, any diplomatic agreement we make, is predicated on that. They're open to the possibility of them going to the UN, they're open to the possibility of them being operated directly by JAXA, they're willing to negotiate the specifics of type, number, payment - but any agreement made with them must include 'ships' as part of the deal. The United Nations can be a double-edged sword, here. Japan and its puppets dominate the Security Council, but the UN's largest member is India, followed by Pakistan, and we may have more cordial relations with them given recent events. Getting them in on this deal as a joint Comintern-UN venture might serve to dilute Japan's influence with another power in play that might not appreciate being spoken for by another. We have a meeting with them soon, we can put off making a decision until we feel out their thoughts on the matter.
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Feb 17, 2021 18:18
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I think that trying to tell what others think is a good idea. War should, obviously, be off the table but I can't say I disagree with what a lot of folks are saying about creating new things. I'd just really rather not have anything like the sabre rattling we saw earlier. Disagreement and even some level of friction should be fine, but I think no-one is in the right place for conflict.
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Feb 17, 2021 18:27
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Don't forget war is off the table, unless they shoot first, since we passed the act a while back that prevents us from striking first. Well that or the act is repealed beforehand, but that'll take a little while.
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Feb 17, 2021 18:38
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Antilles posted:Don't forget war is off the table, unless they shoot first, since we passed the act a while back that prevents us from striking first. Well that or the act is repealed beforehand, but that'll take a little while. Plus Japan might rope the rest of the world into this with them, and I'd rather not have to deal with the second global nuclear war in 15 years if it can be avoided.
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Feb 17, 2021 18:49
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From a background standpoint we should absolutely be more freaked out about the whole nuke thing btw, given the severe cultural trauma everyone is bound to have. Anything that removes nukes off the table is a big deal.
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Feb 17, 2021 18:54
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Telsa Cola posted:From a background standpoint we should absolutely be more freaked out about the whole nuke thing btw, given the severe cultural trauma everyone is bound to have. I agree, anything that removes nuclear weapons from the grubby hands of capitalists too greedy to be trusted with them, is a big deal.
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Feb 17, 2021 18:59
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PurpleXVI posted:I agree, anything that removes nuclear weapons from the grubby hands of capitalists too greedy to be trusted with them, is a big deal. Yeah, like last time, when they started a global nuclear war by dropping nukes on Vietnam, and then on French rioters. So really the big trauma should be about capitalists, not nukes.
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Feb 17, 2021 19:09
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Sanev.Khan posted:I don't consider counter-revolutionaries willing to make deals with capitalists and offer them gifts to be "left" at all. If you refuse to oppose capitalism and imperialism, you aren't left. And I don't consider 'comrades' who are bloodthirsty ideologues who constantly advocate for wars of expansion and conquest, and obsessed with the tracking down and murdering of a nebulous enemy 'elite', as any better than a loving fascist. Go home and polish your guillotine, leave it to the rest of us to do the actual diplomacy and building of a future where we don't just all kill each other, and stop acting like anything short of destroying the rest of the world that we've managed to cobble together into a functioning society is a betrayal of the highest order. I swear, swap the colours around and go back 20 years and you'd have fit right in with the old American anti-socialist fanatics who saw ~Godless Communists~ behind every tree. It's shameful.
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Feb 17, 2021 20:01
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zanni posted:And I don't consider 'comrades' who are bloodthirsty ideologues who constantly advocate for wars of expansion and conquest, and obsessed with the tracking down and murdering of a nebulous enemy 'elite', as any better than a loving fascist. Yeah, the bloodthirst this event has spurred is really, really turning my stomach.
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Feb 17, 2021 20:05
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zanni posted:And I don't consider 'comrades' who are bloodthirsty ideologues who constantly advocate for wars of expansion and conquest, and obsessed with the tracking down and murdering of a nebulous enemy 'elite', as any better than a loving fascist. Zurai posted:Yeah, the bloodthirst this event has spurred is really, really turning my stomach. See, the thing is, I don't think anyone here wants to kill, really. We'd love for there to be a peaceful, negotiated solution. We just do not trust that a compromise at this stage won't set the stage for much worse conflict later on. When has a capitalist society ever accepted the existence of a communist society? When have they attempted anything but to cripple or destroy it, no matter how peaceful and democratic it was? If we hand them technology now, they'll weaponize it and turn it on us as soon as possible. And we don't trust that the capitalists would ever negotiate with us in good faith besides. Not to mention that a compromise with a capitalist society is effectively accepting the existence of a non-inclusive caste society next door, simply because we don't want to get our hands dirty doing something about it. If we consider ourselves communists, I'd say we have a duty to attempt the liberation of every sapient being we encounter. If we can force a bloodless surrender? Great. If we can convince them that we've got the better way of life? Perfect. But we have to be prepared for the fact that capitalists would rather drop nukes out of spite than accept a more equal society.
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Feb 17, 2021 20:18
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PurpleXVI posted:See, the thing is, I don't think anyone here wants to kill, really. We'd love for there to be a peaceful, negotiated solution. And how many people here grew up in a Socialist Utopia free from the influence of the  Pernicious Capitalist? People change, sometimes even without the Nuclear Sword of Damocles hanging over their heads. And I for one am not quite so eager as some of my colleagues to throw my countrymen into the radioactive meat grinding of World War loving Four solely in the name of IdEoLoGiCaL PuRiTy in the face of literally the first major polity to not obsequiously kiss our rear end the minute we show up on their doorstep. Jesus Christ, people.
Asterite34 fucked around with this message at 20:28 on Feb 17, 2021 |
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Feb 17, 2021 20:25
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PurpleXVI posted:See, the thing is, I don't think anyone here wants to kill, really. We'd love for there to be a peaceful, negotiated solution. There are most definitely people here who see ANY compromise as a 'betrayal of the Revolution' and would rather see everyone even remotely suspect shot. PurpleXVI posted:But we have to be prepared for the fact that capitalists would rather drop nukes out of spite than accept a more equal society. Of anyone on God's green Earth, I am positive that the Japanese are not going to drop nukes on us without warning.
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Feb 17, 2021 20:38
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PurpleXVI posted:See, the thing is, I don't think anyone here wants to kill, really. We'd love for there to be a peaceful, negotiated solution. Then people need to stop rattling sabers and demanding humiliating capitulation. Let's not Interwar Germany them, please.
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Feb 17, 2021 20:38
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Zurai posted:Then people need to stop rattling sabers and demanding humiliating capitulation. Let's not Interwar Germany them, please. I mean, if they consider it "humiliating capitulation" to accept basic human rights(food, shelter, education, freedom of association, religion, organization, etc.) for all citizens and to de-colonize minority populations, then are they really a government we can strike a good faith deal with?
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Feb 17, 2021 20:40
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We could just turn down their deal and let them struggle on their own.
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Feb 17, 2021 20:46
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PurpleXVI posted:I mean, if they consider it "humiliating capitulation" to accept basic human rights(food, shelter, education, freedom of association, religion, organization, etc.) for all citizens and to de-colonize minority populations, then are they really a government we can strike a good faith deal with? I mean... DO they? We haven't even made a counter-offer yet! Mister Bates, I'm appealing to the worldbook here, how monstrously capitalist and anti-revolutionary IS Japan these days anyway, for us to be so pissed off at them? I recall them being carefully neutral to us previously.
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Feb 17, 2021 20:47
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zanni posted:And I don't consider 'comrades' who are bloodthirsty ideologues who constantly advocate for wars of expansion and conquest, and obsessed with the tracking down and murdering of a nebulous enemy 'elite', as any better than a loving fascist. I wouldn't call a literal emperor (which by the way is meeting us, not any elected official) to be nebulous. I find it really sad so few of us seem to care about all the women, lesbians, homosexuals, bisexuals, transexuals, queers, others, poor, homeless, mentally ill, and people of colour who are getting killed in those countries for absolutely no good reason other than that capitalism requires at-odds with each others oppressed underclasses to keep functioning and enriching the already obscenely wealthy. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 17, 2021 20:57
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Again ultimately, I really only see two ways this plays out. Either we negotiate with them in good faith and try to sway them over time to our thinking, or we try to gently caress them over and draw them into conflict. PurpleXVI posted:I mean, if they consider it "humiliating capitulation" to accept basic human rights(food, shelter, education, freedom of association, religion, organization, etc.) for all citizens and to de-colonize minority populations, then are they really a government we can strike a good faith deal with? Proposals/demands in this thread have ranged from slight-medium restructuring and decolonization to what is essentially the complete transformation of their society. While the latter may be the end goal its a lovely demand to start with.
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Feb 17, 2021 20:59
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Speaking for myself, the hawkish wing doesn't take the threat of nuclear war lightly. Nor do we gleefully anticipate confrontation. But even if we took Japan's initial proposal without a single concession or counteroffer, we'd only be buying time. As others have pointed out, even if we gift them some ships, our head start into the stars and the sheer demographic/geographic imbalance between our multi-continental bloc and a single nation means it is only a matter of time before we're once again in a position of potential hegemony and they'll start making threats again. They want to be our equals, but to reiterate--if they put their entire population and economy into research labs, they couldn't support our current level of R&D investments. If we want to take this deal, we should go into with open eyes and have a contingency for the next crisis--and a plan or a SCYTHE to eventually resolve our fundamental disagreements.
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Feb 17, 2021 21:04
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Sanev.Khan posted:I wouldn't call a literal emperor (which by the way is meeting us, not any elected official) to be nebulous. We literally talked with the elected Prime Minister of Japan. Hirohito was just also in the room. Sanev.Khan posted:I find it really sad so few of us seem to care about all the women, lesbians, homosexuals, bisexuals, transexuals, queers, others, poor, homeless, mentally ill, and people of colour who are getting killed in those countries for absolutely no good reason other than that capitalism requires at-odds with each others oppressed underclasses to keep functioning and enriching the already obscenely wealthy. I am a transgender lesbian myself. Don't use marginalized identities as a 'gotcha' to justify your bloodthirst for killing anyone you feel like killing, it's disgusting. And don't call people 'queers', my god.
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Feb 17, 2021 21:08
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Sanev.Khan posted:I find it really sad so few of us seem to care about all the women, lesbians, homosexuals, bisexuals, transexuals, queers, others, poor, homeless, mentally ill, and people of colour who are getting killed in those countries for absolutely no good reason other than that capitalism requires at-odds with each others oppressed underclasses to keep functioning and enriching the already obscenely wealthy. Yes, let's start needless wars that'll get all those poor, abused comrades killed even faster. Such a shame our only options are to kill them directly through war or indirectly by leaving them at the mercies of the capitalists, there simply are no other alternatives, none whatsoever.
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Feb 17, 2021 21:08
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Sanev.Khan posted:I wouldn't call a literal emperor (which by the way is meeting us, not any elected official) to be nebulous. I'm sure they'll appreciate you liberating their glowing piles of rubble.
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Feb 17, 2021 21:08
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punched my v-card at camp posted:Speaking for myself, the hawkish wing doesn't take the threat of nuclear war lightly. Nor do we gleefully anticipate confrontation. But even if we took Japan's initial proposal without a single concession or counteroffer, we'd only be buying time. As others have pointed out, even if we gift them some ships, our head start into the stars and the sheer demographic/geographic imbalance between our multi-continental bloc and a single nation means it is only a matter of time before we're once again in a position of potential hegemony and they'll start making threats again. They want to be our equals, but to reiterate--if they put their entire population and economy into research labs, they couldn't support our current level of R&D investments. You do realize that you just argued that nothing will fundementally change, yes? I'm having a hard time seeing that as a down side. The only way they can resolve that power imbalance is either them getting a suprise boost from something or becoming more tied to us. That being said, I don't think anyone is opposed to a "Japan tries to screw with us" contingency plan. Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 21:14 on Feb 17, 2021 |
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Feb 17, 2021 21:11
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PurpleXVI posted:I mean, if they consider it "humiliating capitulation" to accept basic human rights(food, shelter, education, freedom of association, religion, organization, etc.) for all citizens and to de-colonize minority populations, then are they really a government we can strike a good faith deal with? Kodos666 posted:Japan decolonizes Hokkaido and Ryuko, the former being granted the Kuril-island chain as well as the southern tip of the Sakhalin peninsula as a gesture of mutuality by the Russian SFSR. Japan has owned Hokkaido for like 500-600 years at this point (originally settled between 1330 and 1450, Wikipedia isn't clear), and Ryukyu for more than a thousand ("In the early 8th century, the northern end of the island chain was formally incorporated into the Japanese administrative system.") Further, most Ainu do not actually live on Hokkaido. Emperor Hirohito is revered by the Japanese people. He's more well-regarded than Queen Elizabeth, despite any crimes he may have authorized during WW2 (it's not entirely clear how in control he was, and he was a figurehead even back then with the Prime Minister being in direct control of the nation). Deposing him will NOT endear us to the Japanese populace. Both of these terms were proposed explicitly to make Japan reject them. They're humiliating for humiliation's sake, and work counter to a peaceful transition. PurpleXVI posted:If Japan wants to get into space, they definitely have to consent to Comintern weapons inspectors and signing a treaty agreeing to bring no weapons into space, nor producing any weapons in space. This is blatant humiliation. It's literally what America did to them after WW2. LITERALLY. Actually, it's even worse, because we're not letting them have even the fig leaf of a self-defense force. Crazycryodude posted:
And then there's this.
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Feb 17, 2021 21:18
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Zurai posted:Japan has owned Hokkaido for like 500-600 years at this point (originally settled between 1330 and 1450, Wikipedia isn't clear), and Ryukyu for more than a thousand ("In the early 8th century, the northern end of the island chain was formally incorporated into the Japanese administrative system.") Further, most Ainu do not actually live on Hokkaido. I will say, those clauses are mostly there for them to object to, so we can take them off or modify them as a show of 'compromise'. It's a hardline diplomatic tactic more than anything else.
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Feb 17, 2021 21:21
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And why are we playing hardball with someone who feels so desperate that they're threatening to lose a war to us? Seriously. Japan already feels like they have their backs to the wall and our boots on their necks, waving our dicks at them isn't going to change anything.
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Feb 17, 2021 21:23
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