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Rockit posted:Sure but this seems like a big obstacle to doing all that no? It is a big obstacle, but like to fix the legislature you would need to do the constitutional amendment to both expand the length of the legislative session AND eliminate the cap so that is your two already. Then you have to pass budget legislation to account for increased staffing...which I am not sure they can do in the same year, think that has to be done during the budgetary session? Not sure on that. Then you also have to pass legislation to give all Reps a raise because you are taking them away from the job that actually supports their families. It is just....a cascading confederacy of stupid you have to change in a very short timeframe with a very narrow majority. Plus, in VA there is a weird hatred among the electorate of even considering to change any of those things. Like it is outright bizarre the opposition to the things listed above. Furthermore, we only really know how things are going to go in the future of VA in this year's state elections so there are a lot of balls in the air that the party has to juggle right now and it just....can't all get done. This year determines if the gains we made in the past few years are permanent or the backlash will make us lose ground. It is pretty dicey because a lot of the electorate doesn't even know what Right to Work even is let alone how it fucks them. And educating them on that is a real obstacle that requires a lot of resources that just....arent there right now. The big focus of this legislative session has been criminal justice reform and a lot of really good things have come out of it because that is what the activist corps is really pressing the legislature on due to the momentum of BLM. All good things! It is just...hard to fit every priority into that timeframe.
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Feb 19, 2021 00:55
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:Is it really, honestly confusing that people will spitefully gently caress over someone who cuts in line? only when they try to claim that they really really wanted to do the thing the person was cutting in line to do and now they can't and it's his fault
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Feb 19, 2021 00:55
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Discendo Vox posted:Carter taking a giant poo poo on the entire legislative schedule in order to attract attention to himself from people deliberately ignorant of the legislative process does have a bearing on whether those other issues pass. This has been explained at least three times. No details have been given on the disruption of the schedule change themselves and him feuding with people for stupid but separate reasons doesn’t mean those people agree with you on this.
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Feb 19, 2021 00:55
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Harold Fjord posted:only when they try to claim that they really really wanted to do the thing the person was cutting in line to do and now they can't and it's his fault They don't 'really really want to', that the VA dems are persuadable but not proponents is literally the basis of the discussion.
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Feb 19, 2021 01:00
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Discendo Vox posted:Carter taking a giant poo poo on the entire legislative schedule in order to attract attention to himself from people deliberately ignorant of the legislative process does have a bearing on whether those other issues pass. This has been explained at least three times. Nah I agree that changing the order of the schedule is bad, I'm questioning the narrative that killing the bill was an appropriate response and that people feeling slighted is more than just an excuse to vote against it anyhow. If what you're saying is correct, and everyone really wanted to repeal RTW, then it should be a slam dunk next year right because surely all those people who were forced against their will to kill it by impolite rescheduling will pass it themselves yeah? Idc what his party says because they've been trying to get rid of him from day 1 of course they say he's bad, maybe the DSA has good reasons for thinking he's bad but the only evidence offered so far is proof of them bullying him and mocking him for being divorced so unless there's more context that makes them look like the bad guy (more context would be appreciated), as for the unions we only have one poster's word on that, it would be nice to have a some info beyond "trust me", not that I think FB is lying but everyone has a perspective, are you required to take my word for everything that happens in Texas because I live here? No.
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Feb 19, 2021 01:00
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:They don't 'really really want to', that the VA dems are persuadable but not proponents is literally the basis of the discussion. I think I'm going to trust his instincts on whether they were persuadable enough to pass it vs bottling it up for a third year in a row.
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Feb 19, 2021 01:01
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Harold Fjord posted:It's certainly been asserted. If they all voted to pass it what bill was going to get left out in the cold? https://lis.virginia.gov/cgi-bin/legp604.exe?201+com+H10N01 I count 144 bills originating in the House (plus another 39 from the Senate/other committees) referred to the Finance Committee. As you're asking us to prove a hypothetical I can't point to a specific one but I can say that with this many bills being considered the calendar is going to be extremely tight and screwing with it can have consequences.
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Feb 19, 2021 01:01
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friendbot2000 posted:It is a big obstacle, but like to fix the legislature you would need to do the constitutional amendment to both expand the length of the legislative session AND eliminate the cap so that is your two already. Then you have to pass budget legislation to account for increased staffing...which I am not sure they can do in the same year, think that has to be done during the budgetary session? Not sure on that. Then you also have to pass legislation to give all Reps a raise because you are taking them away from the job that actually supports their families. It is just....a cascading confederacy of stupid you have to change in a very short timeframe with a very narrow majority. Plus, in VA there is a weird hatred among the electorate of even considering to change any of those things. Like it is outright bizarre the opposition to the things listed above. That’s fair but I’m not asking y’all to do the PR work so you can do it this year, Next year, or even 2024. M4A may not happen by then but that obviously doesn’t mean that all talk about is pointless, right?
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Feb 19, 2021 01:01
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VitalSigns posted:Nah I agree that changing the order of the schedule is bad, I'm questioning the narrative that killing the bill was an appropriate response and that people feeling slighted is more than just an excuse to vote against it anyhow.  (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 19, 2021 01:02
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:Is it really, honestly confusing that people will spitefully gently caress over someone who cuts in line? No, it's expected because people are often assholes, but clearly both people are the rear end in a top hat in this situation if "loving over" the line-cutter means loving over millions of constituents who had nothing to do with him cutting in line but needed the thing he was cutting in line to do to get done.
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Feb 19, 2021 01:02
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brilliant riposte as always DV "this guy says everyone in the state says you're wrong" "oh ok can I get some indication that everyone is really saying that besides one guy's word that they are" "oh ho ho so you think everyone else is wrong and you're right, pathetic"
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Feb 19, 2021 01:05
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Rockit posted:That’s fair but I’m not asking y’all to do the PR work so you can do it this year, Next year, or even 2024. M4A may not happen by then but that obviously doesn’t mean that all talk about is pointless, right? Oh yeah, that's a very legit point. I think the people in VA are super frustrated because a ton of work has already gone into this RTW repeal bill and it all got blown up for effectively no reason (cynically: so Lee Carter can fundraise for his doomed governor's bid)
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Feb 19, 2021 01:06
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The order of votes allows deliberation and vote trading. An item being later in the docket gives its supporters more leverage through earlier votes. So yes, Carter blew up his ability to get RTW passed through the democratic process, and tried to sabotage the same negotiation schedule for everything else, for no reason other than self-aggrandizement. Look, do you think any of us are fans of right to work laws?! Why do you think we are taking this position?! friendbot2000 worked for his campaign! We are pissed because friendbot2000 posted:That bill is dead now just so Lee Carter can say "YOU SEE, THEY ARE BAD SUCCLIBS".
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Feb 19, 2021 01:08
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If that obvious why vital is wrong then you can just say why not relying on people’s say-so is wrong.
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Feb 19, 2021 01:08
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axeil posted:Oh yeah, that's a very legit point. so we're now at the point where he's being accused of singlehandedly killing it on purpose in order to fundraise off it it's interesting that we admit that someone wanted the bill to die, but instead of the obvious believable motive (the leadership doesn't want RTW gone because the rich and powerful business lobby obviously wants it to stay), no the leadership and all the other delegates couldn't want to pass it but were stabbed in the back by the guy who introduced the bill in the first place, but somehow also killing it was a just and righteous punishment of Lee even though killing it is now allegedly what he wanted all along.
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Feb 19, 2021 01:10
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All this drama just proves moving away from virginia was correct, thanks va legislators
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Feb 19, 2021 01:11
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Discendo Vox posted:The order of votes allows deliberation and vote trading. An item being later in the docket gives its supporters more leverage through earlier votes. So yes, Carter blew up his ability to get RTW passed through the democratic process, and tried to sabotage the same negotiation schedule for everything else, for no reason other than self-aggrandizement. I mean, you say that, and then I see a bunch of whining about podcasts and twitter owns? There is some confused messaging here, as far as what your goal actually is, and why precisely the Virginia Legislature voting in favor of right to work legislation is the fault of the guy who brought it to a vote.
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Feb 19, 2021 01:11
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Rockit posted:If that obvious why vital is wrong then you can just say why not relying on people’s say-so is wrong. friendbot2000, axiel, and several other posters have been explaining this to you, multiple times, in detail, for pages. Including explanations of the VA legislative process that you did not know when you entered this conversation. VitalSigns posted:so we're now at the point where he's being accused of singlehandedly killing it on purpose in order to fundraise off it It was not a "just and righteous punishment", it was Lee deliberately making the legislature choose between RTW repeal and the rest of their planned deliberations. There's not a conspiracy against Lee Carter, and it sure as poo poo doesn't include the people who knocked on doors for him posting in this thread trying to explain basic elements of legislative process to you. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 01:17 on Feb 19, 2021 |
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Feb 19, 2021 01:12
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Discendo Vox posted:The order of votes allows deliberation and vote trading. An item being later in the docket gives its supporters more leverage through earlier votes. So yes, Carter blew up his ability to get RTW passed through the democratic process, and tried to sabotage the same negotiation schedule for everything else, for no reason other than self-aggrandizement. Are you saying Lee killed it on purpose too? I don't think you're fans of right-to-work laws, I think that the forces supporting them are wealthy, powerful, and influential, and instead of grappling with that you're creating a narrative where the guy trying to abolish it sabotaged his own work (possibly on purpose) and somehow the other 54 Democratic delegates or howevermany were helpless bystanders irresistibly voting for RTW, totally coincidentally as the business lobby wanted them to do.
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Feb 19, 2021 01:15
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It seems like you don't understand the point of disagreement because the particular details of the Virginia legislative process are interesting but only tangential to the question of whether or not politicians other than Lee Carter are responsible for the votes they cast
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Feb 19, 2021 01:15
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mandatory lesbian posted:All this drama just proves moving away from virginia was correct, thanks va legislators Yea its not like VA hasn't been a massive success story the last few years or anything especially compared to most other states in this Union. Also people are not moving away from VA gently caress off with that. Seriously every non-VA goon barging in here to act shocked how VA does things (and it is stupid yes) should do some research on their own states. You will probably be equally horrified. But this is what progressive groups have to deal with on a day to day basis. Sorry this poo poo isn't easy and that change takes work.
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Feb 19, 2021 01:17
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Discendo Vox posted:friendbot2000, axiel, and several other posters have been explaining this to you, multiple times, in detail, for pages. Including explanations of the VA legislative process that you did not know when you entered this conversation. yeah but Axiel is now accusing Carter of killing it on purpose to cash in on those sweet sweet donations (nevermind that the real ticket to endless donations is supporting business-friendly legislation, not complicated schemes to oppose it to grift unions), so Imma take his assertions with a grain of salt
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Feb 19, 2021 01:17
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Discendo Vox posted:friendbot2000, axiel, and several other posters have been explaining this to you, multiple times, in detail, for pages. Including explanations of the VA legislative process that you did not know when you entered this conversation. Those explanations have then been challenged, on the grounds that they all posit a Virginia Legislature opposed to repealing Right to Work laws before moving on to the assertion that opposition would have evaporated, if only the bad posting man had not tried to force the issue. In response to this challenge, there has been a great deal of breast-beating over how dare people not uncritically accept this assertion, which brings us to now. What leads you to believe that, had Lee Carter patiently waited for the legislature to take up his bill, the people who voted in favor of right to work legislation would have reversed their position.
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Feb 19, 2021 01:18
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Solaris 2.0 posted:Yea its not like VA hasn't been a massive success story the last few years or anything especially compared to most other states in this Union. lol "barging in" this isn't the VA locals thread check the title my state politics are horrific, but I'll say one thing about the Texas GOP, when they want something to happen in our stupidly limited every-other-year session they get it done and call a special session if they need to, you don't see them saying "gee we wanted to pass an abortion ban but ran out of time ohhh well", whenever they say that about something that's how you know it's not a priority
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Feb 19, 2021 01:20
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Solaris 2.0 posted:Yea its not like VA hasn't been a massive success story the last few years or anything especially compared to most other states in this Union.
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Feb 19, 2021 01:24
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axeil posted:Oh yeah, that's a very legit point. The bill was going to die without even getting a vote to leave committee, the same as it had the prior two legislative sessions. Stop pretending that if Lee Carter didn't try to use his one weird trick to force a vote that it would have had a chance at passing. It was going to wither on the vine yet again. The only reason Lee Carter used that parliamentary process was to force a vote on the record. It was voted down because the Virginia Democratic Party doesn't want it to pass.
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Feb 19, 2021 01:24
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Dett Rite posted:Those explanations have then been challenged, on the grounds that they all posit a Virginia Legislature opposed to repealing Right to Work laws before moving on to the assertion that opposition would have evaporated, if only the bad posting man had not tried to force the issue. Again, the order of votes allows deliberation and vote trading. An item being later in the docket gives its supporters more leverage through earlier votes. This is what legislative deliberation is. We can't prove the bill would've passed because Carter sabotaged it. We are pissed about Carter because, yes, him doing this was loving insane, burned his remaining bridges, and has no sensical explanation other than self-promotion to people who don't understand how the legislature works.
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Feb 19, 2021 01:24
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Discendo Vox posted:friendbot2000, axiel, and several other posters have been explaining this to you, multiple times, in detail, for pages. Including explanations of the VA legislative process that you did not know when you entered this conversation. How is “our words were lengthy and from a lot of people ” a good rebuttal to “I can’t take your guys word it.” That’s not pointing to y’alls crentials and why we can inherently take your word for it that’s just fallacious shitposting. Rockit fucked around with this message at 01:29 on Feb 19, 2021 |
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Feb 19, 2021 01:27
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Pobrecito posted:The bill was going to die without even getting a vote to leave committee, the same as it had the prior two legislative sessions. If it didn't even get a vote twice before, this makes the narrative that "we would have voted for it if only he hadn't made us" seem ... hmm ... idk maybe it's mean to force votes, but I kinda get why someone would be skeptical that it would get voted on without extreme measures when Lucy already pulled the football away two seasons in a row, how many times is Charlie Brown supposed to fall for that before he stops playing by her rules
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Feb 19, 2021 01:28
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God i cant believe i have an opinion on the state that i lived in for over 9/10ths of my life, the audacity
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Feb 19, 2021 01:28
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mandatory lesbian posted:God i cant believe i have an opinion on the state that i lived in for over 9/10ths of my life, the audacity That’s nice you had the privilege to move out but do realize a lot of us do not have that option and have worked very hard to improve VA and heck the neighboring states too. I’m sorry you feel VA sucks, but it’s also lovely to move out and then come into a thread full of people trying to make a state less bad and just causally tell them it sucks. Like ok thanks? What do you think we’re trying to do? We’re not running away. We’re here to fix poo poo.
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Feb 19, 2021 01:31
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Rockit posted:How is “our words were lengthy and from a lot of people ” a good rebuttal to “I can’t take your guys word it.” Why do you think friendbot2000, a poster who has posted a lot in this thread and others over many years about being active in pushing the VA legislature on policy is upset with Lee Carter?
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Feb 19, 2021 01:35
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axeil posted:Why do you think friendbot2000, a poster who has posted a lot in this thread and others over many years about being active in pushing the VA legislature on policy is upset with Lee Carter? Obviously they believe this is all his fault. We get it they have been very clear. That doesn't mean they are right. Continuous assertion of correctness does not make it so
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Feb 19, 2021 01:37
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axeil posted:Why do you think friendbot2000, a poster who has posted a lot in this thread and others over many years about being active in pushing the VA legislature on policy is upset with Lee Carter? He’s ignorant and doesn’t follow proper protocols of his job and stirs poo poo like an rear end in a top hat. Doesn’t mean we’ll take their words that other people aren’t to blame on this.
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Feb 19, 2021 01:39
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axeil posted:Why do you think friendbot2000, a poster who has posted a lot in this thread and others over many years about being active in pushing the VA legislature on policy is upset with Lee Carter? Apparently because Lee is abrasive and hard to work with and this causes problems, which is reasonable, but I find the assertion that this somehow takes away everyone else's agency and makes him responsible when they vote for RTW to be a questionable narrative. Idk maybe this is my inherent bias, but I'm immediately skeptical of explanations for why politicians aren't accountable for what they do and why it's someone else's fault if they happen to vote in line with big business, because the explanations tend not to make a lot of sense and not to offer a good reason for the actual vote itself. Maybe that's just me though, maybe this is the one time it's inherently reasonable to vote for RTW in order to teach someone a lesson, and my own biases are preventing me from accepting the explanation. But idk, the explanation seems bad. If the bill never got written in the first place because he was such an rear end in a top hat nobody could be around him long enough to do it, that might kiiinda make sense if it was also impossible to lock him out of writing it somehow, but seems weird that everybody was totally on board then they all changed their minds at the last second to teach him a lesson about scheduling. That sounds more like they expected it to die without making them take an unpopular vote, were mad that they had to publicly vote it down to stop it, and are doing their best to spin that as someone else forcing them to vote for RTW. That explanation also seems to fit the data, and also is a more believable motive than Carter secretly trying to kill it for the twitter likes and labor cash.
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Feb 19, 2021 01:43
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DV, am I understanding right? The issue is that he didn't threaten to withhold votes from good things or agree to vote for bad things to get more votes for his bill so they had to kill it?
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Feb 19, 2021 01:47
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I also think its funny that many states have absolute insane legislative schedules so that they just never have the time to address other issues after they hit their Big Important session topics. Must be awfully convenient for Virginia legislators to be able to say "we only have 30 days, we'll get to X next session" every year. (Note: I'm not blaming the modern Virginia Democratic party for this, obviously that is something that has been in place for quite some time. I'm a Texan and we have an even more insane legislative session that is a 140 day session every two years, which is just utterly hilarious for trying to run a government in the modern era (or it would be if it didn't lead to such horrifying results). It also conveniently makes it next to impossible to be in the legislature if you aren't already independently wealthy.
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Feb 19, 2021 02:04
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Solaris 2.0 posted:That’s nice you had the privilege to move out but do realize a lot of us do not have that option and have worked very hard to improve VA and heck the neighboring states too. Im not ragging on you fwiw, im ragging on the legislators who decided petty personal beefs were more important then voting for a bill that would have helped people.
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Feb 19, 2021 02:22
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I also tend to be inherently skeptical of politicians' promises, especially promises of support to bills that end up not passing somehow even though majority support was promised. It sounds very exciting when your party achieves full control and they all promise to vote for a good thing, but then you learn about things like Hall Passes. A Hall Pass, for those who don't know, is when the leadership gives you permission to vote for something that they're against as long as it doesn't matter. The way this works is say old people want the Protect Old People from Banks Act passed, but the banks of course are donating huge amounts of money to kill it. A legislator might go to leadership and say "hey I know we're voting this down, but I have lots of old people in my district who will hate me if I do, I need you to protect me." And then leadership says "ok we're getting votes together, if we find enough nays, then you can vote yea, but if not we're going to need you to vote the party line." Sometimes you might get say six legislators who are scared to vote against it but you can only spare five, then you take the guy with the least old people and say "you're at the least risk, you have to vote no, we'll make it up to you another way." The POPfB Act fails by one vote and a bunch of people say "well my rep voted for it so he's the good guy at least let's reelect him and pass it next time" and what they don't realize is he was also an available nay vote but just got a 'Hall Pass' and when they reelect him they never figure out why they can't get the bill to pass even though they keep sending a guy who seems like he supports it to the legislature. Sometimes a vote is so unpopular that you can't get enough people willing to go on record with it, so Hall Passes are out. But you can try something else, it's called "Killing It In Committee". That's where you put it at the bottom of the schedule and make sure you never get to it, then everyone gets to say they wanted to vote for it but gosh somehow it never came up! Then voters say "wow too bad but at least my guy supports it so let's reelect him" and what they don't realize is their guy will never let it come up and they can't figure out why they can't get the bill to pass even though they keep electing people who say they support it. When you do the "Killing It In Commitee" thing, sometimes some rear end in a top hat (who probably is a bad lay and can't please 4 out of 5 women in bed), might actually want it to pass and surprise you by forcing a vote. Then you have to vote against it and think quickly to explain why that happened and find someone to blame (easier if the guy who did it is annoying and has a small penis, probably, then you can blame him for ruining the mood and trying to make you do the thing you wanted to do before he tried to make you). But that really sucks, it's much harder to explain away a vote to kill it then to shrug and say "huh we all wanted to but gosh somehow it never came up". You gotta make sure you kill that guy's career after or he'll poo poo in the punch bowl again and who wants that guy at a party. This is all hypothetical, an explanation of where my mind goes when I hear excuses, I don't know any of these legislators personally, maybe FB is right and RTW never passed because they all wanted to but gosh somehow it never came up. It just takes more to convince me of that than maybe some other people, that's all. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 02:33 on Feb 19, 2021 |
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Feb 19, 2021 02:24
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mandatory lesbian posted:Im not ragging on you fwiw, im ragging on the legislators who decided petty personal beefs were more important then voting for a bill that would have helped people. I think that’s Fair and I’m sorry as well for going off on you. I love the DMV area but local politics is emotional and hard....but can also be rewarding! Please everyone here just get involved. No matter how trivial or frustrating or dumb the process may seem it is rewarding and it does make a difference in people’s lives.
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Feb 19, 2021 02:26
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