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Aphrodite posted:The butler gives Harry new information only he had. There's also absolutely no visual indications that the butler was a figment of Harry's imagination, like how we had already seen previously with his visions of his dad.
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Feb 18, 2021 19:17
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Aphrodite posted:The butler gives Harry new information only he had. The butler thing in Spiderman 3 was hilarious. I burst out laughing in the theatre when he basically goes "everything you know is a lie and the lie has been consuming you with hatred and loathing and whoops, I guess I could have done something about that but oh well"
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Feb 18, 2021 19:23
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Speaking of Spiders-Man, I hear Danny Elfman is going to be working with Sam Raimi on Multiverse of Madness. Last I heard, Elfman had sworn never to work with Raimi again after the temp-tracking debacle on Spader-Man 2. I guess Disney either promised him all the money or Raimi agreed to give him free reign. EDIT: Oh, apparently he worked with Raimi on Oz the Great and Powerful since? I wonder how that one flew under my radar. Phylodox fucked around with this message at 19:34 on Feb 18, 2021 |
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Feb 18, 2021 19:25
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Phylodox posted:Speaking of Spiders-Man, I hear Danny Elfman is going to be working with Sam Raimi on Multiverse of Madness. Last I heard, Elfman had sworn never to work with Raimi again after the temp-tracking debacle on Spader-Man 2. I guess Disney either promised him all the money or Raimi agreed to give him free reign. He worked with him on Oz: The Great and Powerful since the blow up. I think they just smoothed stuff over at some point. I remember reading an interview with Raimi years ago when he said something to the effect of "I don't want to speak for anyone but I think we're okay now" when asked about it.
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Feb 18, 2021 19:33
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Madkal posted:Reminds me of Samurai Jack where he absolutely wrecks robots and strange monsters because they don't have souls.  
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Feb 18, 2021 20:37
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Aphrodite posted:It's Peter's idea (because of Aliens), but Tony does all of it. It's splitting totally pointless hairs that I don't actually care about, but I'd say there's a fair difference between being in a situation where you're trapped against your will on an alien starship whose eventual intent is to see the death of half of all life in the universe, and the strongest guy among you is completely powerless and at the mercy of an omnicidal villain. I think it should be fairly uncontroversial for Weapons Manufacturer Man Who Has Never Had A Problem With Killing and Panicking Child Who Is Completely Out Of His Depth to go gloves off and jettison the dude who pretty much singlehandedly pushed their poo poo in. Batman, whose characterization is usually something like The Most Absurdly Competent Genius Olympian Martial Arts Ninja, voluntarily entered a situation he could have probably avoided, or solved with knockout gas or something. The purpose of that scene was to show Bruce doing insane kung fu and brutal takedowns with cool swooping camera shots. It's fine for that to be in the movie, it is an action movie after all, I just don't think that both of these scenarios have identical context and weight, nor are they necessarily useful explanations of the other.
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Feb 18, 2021 23:45
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SlimGoodbody posted:It's splitting totally pointless hairs that I don't actually care about, but I'd say there's a fair difference between being in a situation where you're trapped against your will on an alien starship whose eventual intent is to see the death of half of all life in the universe, and the strongest guy among you is completely powerless and at the mercy of an omnicidal villain. I think it should be fairly uncontroversial for Weapons Manufacturer Man Who Has Never Had A Problem With Killing and Panicking Child Who Is Completely Out Of His Depth to go gloves off and jettison the dude who pretty much singlehandedly pushed their poo poo in. this was kind of my point that Aphrodite was replying to, tbh Spider-man is maybe sort of semi complicit in killing an alien, we can sit down and discuss the surrounding plot, the reasoning, the weight, the circumstances and then we can move on like normal; likewise, we can discuss Captain America killing and his history as a soldier, or whoever doing whatever and the nature of the event as it had occurred only with Batman for some reason will someone instead insist that plowing in guns blazing like late stage Rambo is in fact a perfectly normal interpretation of the character and if you don't like it maybe you watched too many cartoons, it is weird to me nobody's gonna argue that Spider-man should do frequent murder for realism, something about the Batman talk tends to blow nuance and perspective out the window in a way I can't wrap my brain around. The majority of the actual discussion-discussion in this thread has pretty well nailed down what was interesting about a Batman that won't kill, what can be done with it and why it works; the defense for a Batman that totes kills is just, flatly, "well it's a valid interpretation"
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Feb 19, 2021 01:20
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SlimGoodbody posted:It's splitting totally pointless hairs that I don't actually care about, this actually sums it up, if I say poo poo about MCU Spider-man killing a dude you may debate the point but you're not going to make sweeping generalizations about me as a person or anything if I say poo poo about SnyderBats tomatoes will come flying toward the stage, and that rapidly escalates the nature, tone, and scale of the argument (and it's the same argument, every time) there's a tangible difference in how these characters are considered edit: I remember lengthy discussions about whether PS4 Spider-man loves cops too much, and even that politically charged line of discussion never got to a level like some of these arguments do; I think that says something but gently caress if I know what, I think I'm accidentally writing a thesis on Batman as a concept double edit: to be super clear I completely agree with you about the Thanos goon getting spaced, I'm just trying to poke around the larger idea; they're not comparable scenes on their face, but the two extremes in context vs the seemingly reversed tone from what one would expect in discussing them is what interests me Lunatic Sledge fucked around with this message at 01:53 on Feb 19, 2021 |
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Feb 19, 2021 01:30
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I think there is probably a lot to be said by a smarter person than me on the evolution of public feelings over time on topics of wealth, extrajudicial punishment, torture, surveillance, what counts as "necessary" in the scope of mainting social cohesion and control, what counts as "serious" or "realistic" in the realm of fictional adaptations (and the inclination itself to see those qualities as somehow inherently desirable or needed within this context), etc, and how those all relate to Batman as a particularly resonant character I would even argue that Snyder's interpretation is both a subject of that commentary as well as a commentary in and of itself. But I do see a lot of seemingly unexamined assertion and defense of that interpretation as the most/only valid/intelligent one for some reason. I think many people have a lot of ego and longtime personal investment tied into these brands and stories, and it makes it difficult to have conversations about the topic without some positions feeling like direct insults to a person's values, opinions, and intelligence. SlimGoodbody fucked around with this message at 06:44 on Feb 19, 2021 |
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Feb 19, 2021 02:39
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I don't think anyone cares if Spiderman killed Maw or if he "should" kill. when Holland's Spiderman comes under criticism the charge is usually "he's a child, he is a child soldier" and, further, that this is often played for laughs. the specific scene people often mention is the bus drone strike in Far From Home. this perhaps relates to the broader criticism that the MCU can often feel "weightless" when it comes to violence: disposable robo-alien mooks, muted civilian casualties, the ever-present car massacres. to repeat myself from earlier posts, it's not "killing" that's the problem of course, the other explanation is that Avengers Infinity War is just too dull to be controversial. no one hates it enough to get angry; no one loves it enough to rush to its defence I would suggest that if you genuinely want to understand people's motivations you should probably just ask them, instead of constructing a flattering story between yourselves in which you are calm and collected while those other guys are just so dumb and goddamn crazy
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Feb 19, 2021 03:12
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Lt. Danger posted:I don't think anyone cares if Spiderman killed Maw or if he "should" kill. when Holland's Spiderman comes under criticism the charge is usually "he's a child, he is a child soldier" and, further, that this is often played for laughs. the specific scene people often mention is the bus drone strike in Far From Home. this perhaps relates to the broader criticism that the MCU can often feel "weightless" when it comes to violence: disposable robo-alien mooks, muted civilian casualties, the ever-present car massacres. to repeat myself from earlier posts, it's not "killing" that's the problem I mean, I was chalking it up to the characters just having different inherent cores and thus meaning very different things to the fans of them, but thanks I guess edit: like I haven't even gotten to the point where I ask about motivations yet, I'm still working on what questions to ask Lunatic Sledge fucked around with this message at 03:22 on Feb 19, 2021 |
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Feb 19, 2021 03:19
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you should probably ask people the questions first before deciding what it is they have said (and why it's already wrong)
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Feb 19, 2021 03:36
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Lt. Danger posted:you should probably ask people the questions first before deciding what it is they have said (and why it's already wrong) well while we're working on not putting words in each others mouths, you might notice I'm not arguing with you about the criticisms against Far From Home--that's because I don't disagree with you. I've posted a bunch (relatively, for me) in the past about MCU Spider-man drifting further and further from what I personally feel is the core of solo comics Spider-man, leaning harder on Avengers book Spider-man; the child soldier stuff is a lot of that. I thought the drone strike business detracted from the movie a lot, and though the big Mysterio scene is some of my favorite stuff to come out of any superhero film, overall I thought the first half of the film held it back. Your takes on the rest of the Avengers franchise I don't quite jive with, but I'm not going to go ten rounds with you over it; I understand why someone would not like the films. I was working on a big rant to kind of setup and contextualize this question, which I'm not just asking you specifically, but people in general: what, to you, is necessary for Batman to feel like Batman? Like, there was almost unanimous consensus that, say, the Deadpool in Wolverine Origins just... might as well have been called anything else. Deadpool whose powers are more than just superhuman slapstick, Deadpool who can't talk, these are arguably what makes the character Deadpool; if one wants to swap them out, then why make it Deadpool? As the last few pages elude to, a lot of people feel this way about Spider-man and killing--a Spider-man that kills doesn't feel like Spider-man, to the posters in question. So the question at the center of my thought process right now is, what makes Batman, Batman? I have my own personal answer and my own thoughts about it, but clearly, there's a distinction between my answer and other peoples', and that distinction is what I'm curious about.
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Feb 19, 2021 03:48
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Well to me, my Batman is what is often called "Modern Batman", which was kind of kickstarted by Denny O'Neil in the seventies and has kind of been the mainline interpretation ever since then. This Batman is a fairly grim vigilante with controversial elements but has certain rules that he considers vital to his operation, one of which is yes, not killing. His parents are dead, which is why he's Batman and he's also a genius detective, martial artist, escape artist etc. Within this "Modern Batman" interpretation you can have a spectrum of different variations, and I think it's this base interpretation which informs The Animated Series, the vast majority of comics since the seventies, the first two Nolan films, and the Arkham games. There is plenty of Batman media that rejects this interpretation, such as most of the live action films outside of those first two Nolan entries. And there is nothing wrong with doing that, after all Batman prior to his "reboot" in the seventies had adventures in space. In his earliest appearances he sometimes carried a gun and lived in New York not Gotham. But, for me, the things that stick close to the "Modern Batman" framework feel more like Batman, whereas stuff like Burton's or Snyder's feel like alternate visions. But again that's personal feeling, and it isn't really reflective of the quality of the work. I don't like BvS Batman, not just because he's not "my" Batman or whatever, but because he's a shallow and boring character, whereas Burton's Batman, I find incredibly interesting and love those films even though they also feel less like "my" Batman. Point is, I guess we all have our own interpretations of these characters and certain elements speak to us in different ways. I've said many times how the MCU Spider-Man's lack of guilt, or even acknowledgement of Uncle Ben robs a lot of meaning from that character for me. That's just because the atonement elements of Spider-Man speak to me specifically, but it's not important to everyone, and other people value different aspects of Spider-Man so the MCU version works for them. Batman's no kill rule is as important to me as the fact his parents are dead. Now, they could make a Batman film down the line where his parents are still alive, and are in fact supporting characters, and they could have some other reason for Batman being Batman in that version. He could still have all the gadgets, and the suit, and everything else we associate with Batman, but to me that would feel less like the character, even if the film itself is really good. Point is; there is no definite Batman and every person has their own specific idea of what Batman is, and as we've seen it can range vastly. Karloff fucked around with this message at 04:31 on Feb 19, 2021 |
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Feb 19, 2021 04:29
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I had a dream where Batman was a dirty old bum, and I was about to sock him in the face because, well he's a dirty old bum, but then I thought, there's something special about him... I like to think of Batman like with giant eagles wings, and singin' lead vocals for Lynyrd Skynyrd with like an angel band and I'm in the front row and I'm hammered drunk!
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Feb 19, 2021 04:40
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Lunatic Sledge posted:I was working on a big rant to kind of setup and contextualize this question, which I'm not just asking you specifically, but people in general: what, to you, is necessary for Batman to feel like Batman? definitions are post-hoc descriptive aides rather than Platonic prescriptive demands; like all things "Batman" is a fuzzy probability cloud, a phase-space of traits and details that sometimes contradict each other but in aggregate are generally agreed by consensus to formulate "Batman" (and of course that consensus constantly changes as well) it's the same problem you get when defining "male" and "female". or "chair", for that matter in other words, I am open to all interpretations of Batman. and Spiderman, also. they're just characters, they can do whatever, that's the whole point of characters. I am even open to Spiderman being a child-soldier if the film is willing to explore that truthfully and honestly. in this specific context I am not fussed on whether Batman kills or does not kill, because I don't consider "killing" to be a particularly important boundary I suspect that other people who liked BvS are the same, or at least are open enough to a Batman who kills people sometimes in a lethal fight. I suspect these people don't actually have a preference for a particular interpretation of a character and are happy to see what a given writer does with their individual approach. I don't think anyone has argued that Batman in the animated series or other media isn't a "real" Batman because he doesn't kill. nobody has argued that Batman needs to have a "yes-kill rule" to be true to the character. people have argued the opposite - that killing disqualifies Batman from being Batman, and the film is worse for this - but these aren't the people you and SlimGoodbody say are getting mad, insisting on only their view being valid, displaying superficial reasoning etc.
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Feb 19, 2021 06:09
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In summation Batman is a land of contrasts.
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Feb 19, 2021 06:20
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Lt. Danger posted:in this specific context I am not fussed on whether Batman kills or does not kill, because I don't consider "killing" to be a particularly important boundary Lt. Danger posted:nobody has argued that Batman needs to have a "yes-kill rule" to be true to the character. Zack Snyder posted:Someone says to me, "Batman killed a guy." I'm like, "gently caress, really? Wake the gently caress up," I guess that's what I'm saying once you’ve lost your virginity to this loving movie Watchmen and then you come and say to me something about like "My superhero wouldn’t do that," I'm like, "Are you serious?" I'm like down the loving road on that. It's a cool point of view to be like "My heroes are still innocent. My heroes didn't loving lie to America. My heroes didn't embezzle money from their corporations. My heroes didn't commit any atrocities." That’s cool. But you’re living in a loving dream world.
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Feb 19, 2021 06:22
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thank you for demanding me to ask questions, then dodging it to answer completely different questions instead very cool and good, this has been a very productive discussion for the things I said to piss you off this much, I'm genuinely sorry Lt. Danger
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Feb 19, 2021 06:41
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BrianWilly posted:That's kinda weird tbh Did Snyder actually say all that stuff or is this jokey hyperbole posting?
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Feb 19, 2021 06:49
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Appeals to the sanctity of subjectivity are also real tiresome. It's true that many characters can have many interpretations, but not literally everything you choose to do with a character or a story is going to be equally engaging or equally coherent; in critiquing a film and its characters, there's plenty of room to say that certain choices were right or certain choices were wrong, without having to default to the tautology that everything is, like, a matter of opinion, man. When the Nolan Batman showed up, a lot of people -- who may or may not be Batman aficionados -- were pleasantly surprised specifically because it spoke to them in a more satisfying way than the Burton or Schumacher portrayals. And in that case the reverse must also be possible, that there's a way to adapt something in a way that engages people less. SlimGoodbody posted:Did Snyder actually say all that stuff or is this jokey hyperbole posting?
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Feb 19, 2021 06:52
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Wow, that's uh, hmm
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Feb 19, 2021 07:23
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Good news, there's an actually cool comic book movie coming out in 2021.
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Feb 19, 2021 07:47
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Shirkelton posted:Good news, there's an actually cool comic book movie coming out in 2021. Okay, the callbacks to the original movie theme got me.
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Feb 19, 2021 08:25
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One of the best episodes of tv.
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Feb 19, 2021 08:30
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Samurai Jack ftw
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Feb 19, 2021 08:31
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Bruceski posted:Okay, the callbacks to the original movie theme got me. Maybe the only time the 'here's an epic, moody orchestral version of a classic song' has ever worked.
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Feb 19, 2021 08:50
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Shirkelton posted:Maybe the only time the 'here's an epic, moody orchestral version of a classic song' has ever worked. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAwWPadFsOA&t=54s
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Feb 19, 2021 09:09
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Yeah, it rules, also this is a cheap shot but it owns that some low budget videogame adaptation is about a thousand times more diverse than the average big budget action film.
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Feb 19, 2021 09:42
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Wtf how does that look so drat good. Please, please tell me that both MK1 movies will be good and fun and different enough to love both for what they are. Ok maybe the cgi moves aren't great but still. They even call back to MKX style brutal desperation moves.
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Feb 19, 2021 10:09
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that mortal kombat looks too good I am afraid
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Feb 19, 2021 10:20
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I mean, it doesn't look that good, but it looks fuckin' awesome.
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Feb 19, 2021 10:21
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That Snyder quote is the dumbest ducking thing because they’re fictional characters, dude. You don’t have to make them murderous sad sack pieces of poo poo if you don’t want to! Yeah, a real life Batman would probably kill, but you can choose to say he never does when you’re the one writing the story! Snyder’s entire take on superheroes is just the most exhausting overly dramatic poo poo. It’s an ethos based entirely on Alex Ross covers with the saturation set to 15%.
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Feb 19, 2021 10:30
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Hey, that's great, but we're talking about Mortal Kombat (2021) now, please try to stay on topic.
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Feb 19, 2021 10:33
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JEZEBEL > POP CULTURE > REVIEWS > We need to talk about Johnny Cage nut-punching Baraka so hard his head came off.
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Feb 19, 2021 10:34
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Shirkelton posted:Hey, that's great, but we're talking about Mortal Kombat (2021) now, please try to stay on topic. My bad, I nearly missed an opportunity to extol the virtues of Hiroyuki Sanada in a second thread. I don’t really care about Mortal Kombat, but I’ll watch anything that guy’s in.
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Feb 19, 2021 10:36
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White people told me that Asians doing kung fu is racist though
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Feb 19, 2021 10:37
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Big Mean Jerk posted:My bad, I nearly missed an opportunity to extol the virtues of Hiroyuki Sanada in a second thread. I don’t really care about Mortal Kombat, but I’ll watch anything that guy’s in. It's Joe Taslim Hiroyuki Sanada time, baby.
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Feb 19, 2021 10:51
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BrianWilly posted:White people told me that Asians doing kung fu is racist though never listen to white people, he says, white as hell
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Feb 19, 2021 11:05
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BrianWilly posted:White people told me that Asians doing kung fu is racist though Interesting that you would call a movie centring two black, disabled voices 'racist'... 
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Feb 19, 2021 11:14
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