forkboy84 posted:I can't help but worry we are all so loving desperate to get out of lockdown that we're rushing into it far too early. The government already proved they care more about businesses and their bottom line than about people dying so their analysis is suspect, and the opposition don't know the meaning of the word oppose as apparently that doesn't come under forensic analysis. Yeah this is where I'm at too
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# ? Feb 22, 2021 18:46 |
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# ? May 27, 2024 02:39 |
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feedmegin posted:Ah, a sort of nationalist socialism. It genuinely wasn't. The Nazis were openly and explicitly pro-capitalist from day one, and the Strasserites (who honestly weren't that socialist either) were always on the fringe. Mass privatisation, persecution of trade unions, and cuts to welfare were always the order of the day. Hitler's main sales pitch to businesses after becoming chancellor was that democracy was incompatible with capitalism, and therefore should be done away with.
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# ? Feb 22, 2021 19:00 |
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Darth Walrus posted:Hitler's main sales pitch to businesses after becoming chancellor was that democracy was incompatible with capitalism he wasn't wrong
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# ? Feb 22, 2021 19:09 |
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Lol https://twitter.com/TheIDSmiths/status/1363903973267300352?s=09
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# ? Feb 22, 2021 19:20 |
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The govt is absolute poo poo as always but I do think we can be overly pessimistic here. The vaccination programme is actually being delivered quite efficiently and there's no reason to believe that once we hit a certain percentage of the population that'll won't be enough to keep infection rates under control. You don't need 100% vaccination to effectively achieve that.
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# ? Feb 22, 2021 19:35 |
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Darth Walrus posted:It genuinely wasn't. The Nazis were openly and explicitly pro-capitalist from day one, and the Strasserites (who honestly weren't that socialist either) were always on the fringe. Mass privatisation, persecution of trade unions, and cuts to welfare were always the order of the day. Hitler's main sales pitch to businesses after becoming chancellor was that democracy was incompatible with capitalism, and therefore should be done away with. The socialism of Blue Labour is often overstated as well, though a common theme of the types of voters that like Blue Labour type stuff is that they are very unhappy with the economic status quo and want a change, the same as young urban lefties, which is why it's such a bungle that Keith is not going down this path as it's a clear way to unite Labour's base (the answer is that Labour are currently capital's B team)
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# ? Feb 22, 2021 19:37 |
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ThomasPaine posted:The govt is absolute poo poo as always but I do think we can be overly pessimistic here. The vaccination programme is actually being delivered quite efficiently and there's no reason to believe that once we hit a certain percentage of the population that'll won't be enough to keep infection rates under control. You don't need 100% vaccination to effectively achieve that. However, one thing we have had demonstrated quite amply is that anything shy of a thousand dead a day is still "under control" as far as the government is concerned.
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# ? Feb 22, 2021 19:42 |
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Bobby Deluxe posted:You have a good point in that the actions of Israel are really no more problematic than some other countries if you dig down deep enough into their foreign policy. What they're doing to the Palestinians is probably not as bad as what the Chinese authorities are doing to the Uighur people or have been doing for years in Tibet. This makes sense, thank you. ThomasPaine posted:This would be ideal, honestly. This also makes sense, and thanks too. The ethnic element is very confusing to me. As a Jew knowing that there is a place for Jews where we will always be welcome (the ultimate Plan B) is comforting, even if I have no intention of ever living there. I think I have referred to this before, and that it is why Israel gets the reaction from so many Jews that it does - it represents a potential haven if things turn bad. But the idea of a country being limited effectively to one ethnicity also gives me the creeps, and I don't see how you can really maintain that without it becoming a de facto apartheid state. feedmegin posted:That reminds me. Therattle, aren't you South African originally? What was it like growing up under Apartheid anyway? Genuinely curious. Yes I am. I was 15 in 1990 when Mandela was released. I went to all-white schools until the last year of high school, when some black kids could enter. We lived in a liberal/racist household. "Jokey" racism was OK but not "ugly" racism. My parents voted for Helen Suzman, who was for many years the sole anti-apartheid member of Parliament, and they deplored apartheid, but did nothing to end or oppose it and enjoyed the benefits (as did I). Benefits such as a live-in maid and a gardener, who lived in dark, lovely rooms off the back yard. Pretty much the only black people I saw were labourers, maids, gardeners etc. I still have deep unconscious racist impulses which are shaped by that. We were happy when apartheid ended, Mandela was released etc but as I said, they did nothing to make that happen and have done nothing since to make the society better. (For instance, my father loves carpentry and is very good at it. He never volunteered to teach carpentry to unskilled people who could really use it). One of the reasons I left SA when I was 22 is that it is a socially conservative place, Jewish SA included. If you were good with words, for instance, you wouldn't think of being a writer, a playwright, a journalist, etc - you'd become a lawyer. To be considered "alternative" was a bad thing. While there were a number of Jews who were prominent in the anti-apartheid movement most Jews kept their heads down. Post-Holocaust SA was a good place for them to be, and I suspect they enjoyed not being at the bottom of the ladder anymore. There was community pressure to not rock the boat as a result. It was also a very Zionist community (still is). It is also a very macho culture. It felt like there were only two ways to be a man in South Africa (only one of which was acceptable), and neither of them were me. I was uncomfortable in my masculinity there (and for many years alter as a result). I didn't think I was gay but I wasn't a "real man" either, and those were really the only two options. Of course, growing up it all felt pretty normal...
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# ? Feb 22, 2021 19:43 |
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We're gonna need more flags. https://twitter.com/BritainElects/status/1363921669576925185
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# ? Feb 22, 2021 19:46 |
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ThomasPaine posted:The govt is absolute poo poo as always but I do think we can be overly pessimistic here. The vaccination programme is actually being delivered quite efficiently and there's no reason to believe that once we hit a certain percentage of the population that'll won't be enough to keep infection rates under control. You don't need 100% vaccination to effectively achieve that. Yeah that's all true but the percent you need to hit is at least double where we are today nevermind the time lag from getting first jabbed to getting the individual immunity levels needed. Meanwhile all schools are back in two weeks. This is at best a 'running hot' strategy where the hospitals are going to be kept rammed but potentially not collapsing for the next few months. Without there being an obvious 'all clear' moment (or one that is at best at the end of this year) everyone is still going to be extremely nervous about doing anything in large groups which means 'normal' is still far away and the government has decided to up the death toll in the interim to avoid covering the costs of doing otherwise.
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# ? Feb 22, 2021 19:55 |
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therattle posted:As a Jew knowing that there is a place for Jews where we will always be welcome (the ultimate Plan B) is comforting, Has this ever been tested in recent history? Like a mass exodus caused by societal upheaval? Considering how a right wing government normally reacts to a massive influx of immigrants there is no reason to believe that shared cultural heritage will ensure good treatment.
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# ? Feb 22, 2021 19:59 |
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Also the idea that ethnonationalism will keep the would be supreme ethnicity safe is... not very well historically supported. Israel is dependent on international support to continue existing, as all countries are to a greater or lesser degree. You can't escape dependence on the goodwill of other people.
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# ? Feb 22, 2021 20:07 |
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Why is this fucker always late
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# ? Feb 22, 2021 20:07 |
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extremely Worzel Gummidge vibes today
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# ? Feb 22, 2021 20:11 |
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namesake posted:Yeah that's all true but the percent you need to hit is at least double where we are today nevermind the time lag from getting first jabbed to getting the individual immunity levels needed. Meanwhile all schools are back in two weeks. This is at best a 'running hot' strategy where the hospitals are going to be kept rammed but potentially not collapsing for the next few months. I saw a take on Twitter that seemed quite convincing, that the strategy seems to be 'vaccinate the old and people with underlying health conditions then reopen and go back to de facto herd immunity plan amongst the healthy <50s'. That way excess deaths drop off because the vulnerable aren't being infected, and you can open everything back up on the back of that while declaring everything 'back to normal' while ignoring that your whole working age population is getting sick and potentially developing long-covid symptoms as a result until you muddle through finally getting everyone else jabbed. It's easy to spin because deaths are down, business loves it, old tory voters aren't in any danger because they've been vaccinated, it costs far less than doing things properly. Just don't think of the long-term public health consequences. I'm sure the person was just speculating but it would be very on brand. CancerCakes posted:Has this ever been tested in recent history? Like a mass exodus caused by societal upheaval? Considering how a right wing government normally reacts to a massive influx of immigrants there is no reason to believe that shared cultural heritage will ensure good treatment. Also, a cynic might say that Israel's status as a Jewish ethnostate is a mostly performative legitimation of a colonial project that reifies Western neoimperialism. You'll notice that it's a welcoming haven for European/American Jews who have essentially been incorporated into 'whiteness', but considerably less so for others (e.g. Beta Israel), not to mention it provides a very useful base of operations for the USA in the middle east. ThomasPaine fucked around with this message at 20:26 on Feb 22, 2021 |
# ? Feb 22, 2021 20:12 |
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That's barely speculation that's just observation of the government's response, again they only act when the daily deaths start reaching four digits. If that stops happening they will stop doing anything and gently caress you if you get sick, we've always been entirely expendable to keep the olds alive.
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# ? Feb 22, 2021 20:15 |
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https://twitter.com/broderly/status/1363857136749486080?s=19 Where's the birth certificate Keith
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# ? Feb 22, 2021 20:16 |
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ThomasPaine posted:I saw a take on Twitter that seemed quite convincing, that the strategy seems to be 'vaccinate the old and people with underlying health conditions then reopen and go back to de facto herd immunity plan amongst the healthy <50s'. That way excess deaths drop off because the vulnerable aren't being infected, and you can open everything back up on the back of that while declaring everything 'back to normal' while ignoring that your whole working age population is getting sick and potentially developing long-covid symptoms as a result until you muddle through finally getting everyone else jabbed. i’d like to reiterate that it felt that a lot more younger people seemed to be much more sick this time around, and while they didn’t die as often, i can bet they are going to have shed loads of morbidities and a miserable few years ahead so basically we’re going to have a society of superhuman tory voting boomers having a great time on holiday and a pile of wheezing gen x and millennials , too sick to leave the house and vote against this lunatic government
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# ? Feb 22, 2021 20:24 |
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The logic of capitalism doesn't care about individuals who are workers, only about continuity of labour power in the abstract necessary for capital accumulation. The UK is absolutely not going to be a place where labour is in excess demand for the foreseeable future as our lack of economic development over the last decade(+) shows so driving out EU migrants and permanently crippling some percentage of the workforce is absolutely fine as far as Britains broken economy goes. Far better than tax rises or a permanent state structure being created to prevent all the deaths.
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# ? Feb 22, 2021 20:28 |
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https://twitter.com/jasebyjason/status/1363908521742499845?s=21 It absolutely is, isn’t it. Everything’s going to be hosed for ever. Feels like people are just going to gladly accept the inevitable ‘we must pay back the cost of dealing with the pandemic’ turbo austerity that is inevitably going to follow after a brief period of extra spending
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# ? Feb 22, 2021 20:36 |
ThomasPaine posted:I saw a take on Twitter that seemed quite convincing, that the strategy seems to be 'vaccinate the old and people with underlying health conditions then reopen and go back to de facto herd immunity plan amongst the healthy <50s'. That way excess deaths drop off because the vulnerable aren't being infected, and you can open everything back up on the back of that while declaring everything 'back to normal' while ignoring that your whole working age population is getting sick and potentially developing long-covid symptoms as a result until you muddle through finally getting everyone else jabbed. This is literally what's happening
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# ? Feb 22, 2021 20:45 |
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It really seems like something the government really could, and should, be doing even under the strategy it has taken is a concerted effort to get the low uptake communities vaccinated, both in terms of transmissions and fatalities ignoring that area of society just seems like leaving money on the table
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# ? Feb 22, 2021 20:45 |
Answers Me posted:https://twitter.com/jasebyjason/status/1363908521742499845?s=21 Yes. Make your peace with it as best you can
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# ? Feb 22, 2021 20:46 |
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Well the thing is, I'm not sure there will be a period of crippling austerity. The Tories have got into the habit of splashing money around... and they rather seem to like it. I can easily imagine a newly-confident Johnson, boosted by a successful reopening of society, gleefully investing in industries and opening new universities and stuff. Meanwhile, Labour would be stood off to one side, gloomily shaking their heads, muttering about the need for fiscal responsibility and generally coming across as a bunch of joyless gits. Readers of this thread will be familiar enough with what Starmer and Dodds are like and how they view politics: is it really so unrealistic to imagine Johnson cheekily outflanking them on the left?
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# ? Feb 22, 2021 20:49 |
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therattle posted:
I know you probably know this now and are just stating feelings from back then but gender identity and sexual orientation have very little to do with each other. And that same binary stoped me from admitting I was trans in my teens. (And then not feeling I was trans enough stoped me in my 20s)
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# ? Feb 22, 2021 20:50 |
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Also,The Times posted:
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# ? Feb 22, 2021 20:53 |
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I'm seeing a lot less pessimism this time around, loads of people of Twitter are declaring June 21st to be a grand reopening and something to be excited about. These are the same people who were incredibly skeptical of last year's lockdown easing extravaganza. People have just had enough. They're done, totally and completely. If they can use the vaccine to rationalise everything else away and enjoy the prospect of seeing their families and getting pissed together they will. I really can't blame them either. It just crushes me that Johnson and Co are going to get away with it.
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# ? Feb 22, 2021 20:53 |
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Pistol_Pete posted:Well the thing is, I'm not sure there will be a period of crippling austerity. The Tories have got into the habit of splashing money around... and they rather seem to like it. I can easily imagine a newly-confident Johnson, boosted by a successful reopening of society, gleefully investing in industries and opening new universities and stuff. Meanwhile, Labour would be stood off to one side, gloomily shaking their heads, muttering about the need for fiscal responsibility and generally coming across as a bunch of joyless gits. Readers of this thread will be familiar enough with what Starmer and Dodds are like and how they view politics: is it really so unrealistic to imagine Johnson cheekily outflanking them on the left? It's extremely possible but not inevitable. There's plenty of capitalists which benefitted from austerity but will lose when the current cabinet get to pick which industries and areas wins all the government contracts/support instead. These two groups will duke it out in a dynamic public battle, I don't know who will win but the left needs more emotionally grounded arguments which are to the side of more/less government spending to mean whichever side wins there is only conditional public support for their plans unless they can also fulfill the desires the left has created in them.
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# ? Feb 22, 2021 20:56 |
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Answers Me posted:It absolutely is, isn’t it. Everything’s going to be hosed for ever. Feels like people are just going to gladly accept the inevitable ‘we must pay back the cost of dealing with the pandemic’ turbo austerity that is inevitably going to follow after a brief period of extra spending I really struggle to see Boris as austerity PM. There will be spending, it will just be spending on absolutely stupid useless poo poo.
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# ? Feb 22, 2021 20:57 |
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Pistol_Pete posted:is it really so unrealistic to imagine Johnson cheekily outflanking them on the left? https://twitter.com/NJGov/status/1363914272947007493 and Labour are https://twitter.com/llewcid/status/1306530293319446528 because at least it's better than two parties of miserable punitive shits. lol e:
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# ? Feb 22, 2021 20:59 |
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Answers Me posted:https://twitter.com/jasebyjason/status/1363908521742499845?s=21 How long until Sir Boris Johnson?
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# ? Feb 22, 2021 21:08 |
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'Victory Covid Day'
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# ? Feb 22, 2021 21:09 |
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Starsnostars posted:How long until Sir Boris Johnson? He won't be knighted while he's prime minister, so probably another 15-20 years.
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# ? Feb 22, 2021 21:10 |
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Every photojournalist in the country is going to be on the prowl on 23/06 looking to take the defining image of jubilation that epitomises the end of the Covid-era
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# ? Feb 22, 2021 21:10 |
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Better than taking 'all grown up' images of children, although I'm sure they'll figure out a way to combine the two.
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# ? Feb 22, 2021 21:12 |
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multijoe posted:Every photojournalist in the country is going to be on the prowl on 23/06 looking to take the defining image of jubilation that epitomises the end of the Covid-era
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# ? Feb 22, 2021 21:13 |
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Accurate
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# ? Feb 22, 2021 21:14 |
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multijoe posted:Every photojournalist in the country is going to be on the prowl on 23/06 looking to take the defining image of jubilation that epitomises the end of the Covid-era
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# ? Feb 22, 2021 21:15 |
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Answers Me posted:https://twitter.com/jasebyjason/status/1363908521742499845?s=21 Three years is an eternity in politics. Hopefully.
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# ? Feb 22, 2021 21:30 |
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# ? May 27, 2024 02:39 |
Barry Foster posted:This is literally what's happening Posting my own tweet on this again: https://twitter.com/WhatEvil/status/1351976981219389447?s=20 I mean, I'm not Nostradamus or anything, "Tories will do the absolute least for the people they can get away with, leading to 10s of thousands of unnecessary deaths" is not a difficult prediction, but still.
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# ? Feb 22, 2021 21:54 |