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Osmosisch
Sep 9, 2007

I shall make everyone look like me! Then when they trick each other, they will say "oh that Coyote, he is the smartest one, he can even trick the great Coyote."



Grimey Drawer
Just read about Gary's health issues, I hope he's feeling better. Sounds really sucky.

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Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012

Crash Bandicoot 2 is one of the greatest games ever made

ONE YEAR LATER
Apr 13, 2004

Fry old buddy, it's me, Bender!
Oven Wrangler
I watched Deadpool 2 last night and I know that they talked about it on Days of Future Cast but I can't for the life of me find it. Does anyone know what episode it is?

Down With People
Oct 31, 2012

The child delights in violence.

ONE YEAR LATER posted:

I watched Deadpool 2 last night and I know that they talked about it on Days of Future Cast but I can't for the life of me find it. Does anyone know what episode it is?

Episodes 78-79, 'We Ticked Off Yentil Twitter' and 'Tiny GFs'

ONE YEAR LATER
Apr 13, 2004

Fry old buddy, it's me, Bender!
Oven Wrangler
Hey thanks, would you believe that searching the rss feed and patreon brought up jack squat?

C-Euro
Mar 20, 2010

:science:
Soiled Meat
Ooooohhhh Riven WOFF in April is gonna be lit. One of the rare WOFFs where I feel compelled to write in.

Old Swerdlow
Jul 24, 2008
I can’t stop listening to Guillotine since I listened to the latest episode of Unfilmable.

Hyrax Attack!
Jan 13, 2009

We demand to be taken seriously

The Divinity Original Sin 2 mega-sodes are excellent. Gary's enthusiasm for this type of game is infectious, when I played I only got past Act 1 but now I want to revisit.

Nibble
Dec 28, 2003

if we don't, remember me
I never got that much into CRPGs but I knew I had to play this one when they announced it for the show. Towards the end of Act 2 now and really enjoying it.

C-Euro
Mar 20, 2010

:science:
Soiled Meat
DOS 1 has been sitting in my "play this sooner rather than later" pile for a while, gotta get on that so I have an excuse to pick up DOS 2.

Hyrax Attack!
Jan 13, 2009

We demand to be taken seriously

Picked up Hypnospace Outlaw after their recommendation. Looking forward to web browsing in the early 2000s or something? It did sound fun.

A Strange Aeon
Mar 26, 2010

You are now a slimy little toad
The Great Twist

Hyrax Attack! posted:

Picked up Hypnospace Outlaw after their recommendation. Looking forward to web browsing in the early 2000s or something? It did sound fun.

It's a great game, full of awesome discoveries and great music! You're in for a treat.

Spermando
Jun 13, 2009
In the Riven episode, Kole and Gary ramble about syntactic and semantic puzzles and I'm not entirely sure what they mean by that. If I understood correctly, semantic puzzles are about applying meaning to things, like finding purposes for objects, whereas syntactic puzzles are like cracking codes and things? Or is it the other way around?

Nibble
Dec 28, 2003

if we don't, remember me
I think that's right. Specifically with the numbers and colors, you're learning the definitions of the symbols to their real-world counterparts, and then using that to read and input those colors/numbers elsewhere. Semantic then would be like more traditional point-and-click adventure puzzles, where you collect items and are always thinking "where can I make use of this?" and "what do I need to do {x}?"

I'm really curious to see where they land on The Witness. I played it for the first time a year or two ago and was impressed by the elegance of most of the puzzle designs and how well it taught you what you needed to know.

Bug Squash
Mar 18, 2009

Nibble posted:

I think that's right. Specifically with the numbers and colors, you're learning the definitions of the symbols to their real-world counterparts, and then using that to read and input those colors/numbers elsewhere. Semantic then would be like more traditional point-and-click adventure puzzles, where you collect items and are always thinking "where can I make use of this?" and "what do I need to do {x}?"

When I played Myst, I did noticed that almost all the puzzles had a similar basic structure: an encrypted answer, a cypher to decrypt the answer, and a place to input the answer. I think that what I would call the "cypher" is the same as what Gary/Kole called learning the syntax. Just two different ways of conceptualising the same thing I guess.

JollyBoyJohn
Feb 13, 2019

For Real!
Very excited to finally play Prey in anticipation of the woff episode

Hyrax Attack!
Jan 13, 2009

We demand to be taken seriously

Kole showing up to court in a suit and tie to plead no-contest to a traffic ticket, and Gary's prison survival strategy centering around being an excellent Dungeon Master, are both very on brand.

C-Euro
Mar 20, 2010

:science:
Soiled Meat
Love Gary's approach to interviews from this month's Dispatch of "we are both lying to each other about this thing, and that's fine" lol

Also I have a copy of Infinite Jest on my bookshelf that I haven't read, but I got it for free from a friend (who also probably never read it) so that only half-counts against me I think.

A Strange Aeon
Mar 26, 2010

You are now a slimy little toad
The Great Twist

C-Euro posted:

Love Gary's approach to interviews from this month's Dispatch of "we are both lying to each other about this thing, and that's fine" lol

Also I have a copy of Infinite Jest on my bookshelf that I haven't read, but I got it for free from a friend (who also probably never read it) so that only half-counts against me I think.

I'd had a copy for awhile and had read most of DFW's other fiction and non fiction, then I read Infinite Jest a little before Covid hit. Great book, worth the hype, etc.

Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012

What the hell was that pronunciation of moon?

Hyrax Attack!
Jan 13, 2009

We demand to be taken seriously

The Witness episode is a lot of fun, they are roasting the creator good

Beartaco
Apr 10, 2007

by sebmojo
Oh I dunno, they made a case that the game and the dude are intrinsically linked but I got sick of hearing about him pretty quickly. I guess the guy's obnoxious on Twitter or something?

e:
Especially compared to their Hotline Miami episode, which apparently also had developer inserts and got a much more palatable "Yeah the dudes who made this seem unpleasant and I don't necessarily agree with the games theming, anyway..." from the hosts.

Beartaco fucked around with this message at 19:46 on Jun 21, 2021

Sivart13
May 18, 2003
I have neglected to come up with a clever title

Hyrax Attack! posted:

The Witness episode is a lot of fun, they are roasting the creator good
I got like 80% of the way through The Witness (inside the mountain) and it always seems theoretically possible that I should finish it or replay it but maybe I should just listen to this ep and close that chapter in my life.

Nibble
Dec 28, 2003

if we don't, remember me
Imo if you’ve played that much of it, I wouldn’t push yourself to do more. The game’s strengths are in the “aha!” moments it generates while teaching you new mechanics, and the end sections have a lot less of that and a lot more repetition of old mechanics in increasingly difficult combinations.

I listened to the episode and realized I didn’t hear them talk about one of my favorite sections, where you physically walk through a grid area first and then use what you see/hear to solve a puzzle. I think it was a castle/courtyard area. Did they skip that part or did I just totally zone out while listening?

Song For The Deaf
Aug 10, 2006

I HAVE TO USE MY SOUND SWORD NOW.
We talked about the courtyards. That’s a cool area.

Baron von der Loon
Feb 12, 2009

Awesome!
Had The Witness in my library for awhile now and been thinking of giving it a try. How spoiler-heavy is the episode?

Nibble
Dec 28, 2003

if we don't, remember me

Song For The Deaf posted:

We talked about the courtyards. That’s a cool area.

Oh good, I'll have to go back and find it then.

Baron von der Loon posted:

Had The Witness in my library for awhile now and been thinking of giving it a try. How spoiler-heavy is the episode?

There's not much of a story to spoil in the traditional sense, if that's what you mean. They don't talk about individual puzzle solutions, but they do discuss the mechanics for each area, many of which would be more fun to discover for yourself.

Hyrax Attack!
Jan 13, 2009

We demand to be taken seriously

Baron von der Loon posted:

Had The Witness in my library for awhile now and been thinking of giving it a try. How spoiler-heavy is the episode?

It's a great ep but does include end game info, so might want to hold off if you want that to be a surprise.

Beartaco posted:

Oh I dunno, they made a case that the game and the dude are intrinsically linked but I got sick of hearing about him pretty quickly. I guess the guy's obnoxious on Twitter or something?

e:
Especially compared to their Hotline Miami episode, which apparently also had developer inserts and got a much more palatable "Yeah the dudes who made this seem unpleasant and I don't necessarily agree with the games theming, anyway..." from the hosts.

That's a fair point, I thought their goofing on the creator of the Witness was hilarious so I didn't mind but could understand if that's an issue. I think the difference between that and hotline miami's creators is that they might not have the best reputation but don't insert their philosophical views or hour long lectures from their favorite gurus into their games so a casual player wouldn't have any idea what their ideologies are. I didn't know much about the Witness creator going in but it sounded like they had fair points about him making bad design choices such as lack of accessibility for issues like color blindness or excessively frustrating puzzles. And they did praise some of the better puzzles so didn't feel like there was a grudge against him.

Gaius Marius
Oct 9, 2012

Baron von der Loon posted:

Had The Witness in my library for awhile now and been thinking of giving it a try. How spoiler-heavy is the episode?

Skip the EP until you've played it

Beartaco
Apr 10, 2007

by sebmojo
Should elements of games that exclude certain people with disabilities simply not exist, even if they're entirely optional?

Is the developer explicitly "saying 'gently caress you'" to differently abled people by not removing these elements entirely?

A Strange Aeon
Mar 26, 2010

You are now a slimy little toad
The Great Twist

Beartaco posted:

Should elements of games that exclude certain people with disabilities simply not exist, even if they're entirely optional?

Is the developer explicitly "saying 'gently caress you'" to differently abled people by not removing these elements entirely?

I dunno, I mean football is a game, right? Should the elements of the game that exclude certain people with disabilities simply not exist?

Or maybe it's different because it's a video game and doesn't have to exclude anyone, but you'd think given the relative cultural importance of The Witness vs the importance of the NFL, that question has more weight if we're serious about equity.

The game of football doesn't have to exclude anyone either, it's just following traditions that do exclude people with disabilities, the same way careless video game designs do.

Bug Squash
Mar 18, 2009

Paralympic football is absolutely a thing that exists.

What grates so much about The Witnesses design is that there is no need whatsoever for those puzzle elements to be so exclusionary. But Blow felt that a small number of relatively superficial elements were more important than allowing a large number of people to play his game without impairment. On top of the general ickyness of that, it smacks of auteur fart huffing.

A Strange Aeon
Mar 26, 2010

You are now a slimy little toad
The Great Twist
I'm in no way trying to defend Blow who by all accounts sucks, but it just seems to me that it's overstating the case to say that there should never be any game that has a color or sound puzzle for the rest of time, which seems to be the inevitable conclusion of claiming a designer is saying "gently caress you" to those people who are excluded.

People might like to play color or sound puzzles, and game developers might like to create them, so why should they not get them just because certain others can't enjoy them?

I would think a better option would be a configuration setting that could please both groups, rather than just abandoning entire conceptual design spaces. Obviously such an option is not in The Witness, but that's hardly unique to this one game and this one developer.

Bug Squash
Mar 18, 2009

Colour blind options are easy to implement and widely adopted, all can be accomplished without comprising the central core of any puzzle space.

EC
Jul 10, 2001

The Legend

A Strange Aeon posted:

I'm in no way trying to defend Blow who by all accounts sucks, but it just seems to me that it's overstating the case to say that there should never be any game that has a color or sound puzzle for the rest of time, which seems to be the inevitable conclusion of claiming a designer is saying "gently caress you" to those people who are excluded.

People might like to play color or sound puzzles, and game developers might like to create them, so why should they not get them just because certain others can't enjoy them?

I would think a better option would be a configuration setting that could please both groups, rather than just abandoning entire conceptual design spaces. Obviously such an option is not in The Witness, but that's hardly unique to this one game and this one developer.

"I personally have never experienced a disability and thus, it seems to me; I should never have to have my beautiful video games sullied by things that remind me they exist"

A Strange Aeon
Mar 26, 2010

You are now a slimy little toad
The Great Twist

EC posted:

"I personally have never experienced a disability and thus, it seems to me; I should never have to have my beautiful video games sullied by things that remind me they exist"

Is that quote supposed to be a summary of what I posted? I don't think that's accurate, but if I am thinking about this the wrong way, I would like to be corrected.

I think accessibility is very important, especially in technology, but a deaf person watching a video with subtitles that say "music plays" isn't getting the same experience as someone who can hear the actual music, right?

Like, how do you accommodate that? You guys seem to be saying "just don't use sound in your video game, you moron" which doesn't make sense to me. What am I missing here?

WrightOfWay
Jul 24, 2010


Blow could have definitely made the color puzzles color blind friendly but I don't think there is anything that could be done to make the sound puzzles work other than just not having sound puzzles. Which is fair, they aren't exactly a highlight of the game and I don't think you lose anything important from their removal. Is it wrong to make a game with a large emphasis on sound that maybe can't be completed by people with hearing disabilities? I don't think so, even if I don't think The Witness should be that game.

Bug Squash
Mar 18, 2009

Just have a box in the accessibility options for audio description for the heard of hearing. The relevant ambient noises then come up as subtitles. The puzzle would probably be easier for dead people than full hearing people, but that's ok.

Audio description is a little bit of extra effort compared to colour blind options, but nothing compared to the huge amount of effort that went into making the game as a whole.

JollyBoyJohn
Feb 13, 2019

For Real!
The Witness is great, just a marvellous videogame with a brilliant concept, the puzzles were fun and importantly I really enjoyed just exploring the Island, its design and the vibrancy of it's world was one of my favourite parts. For whatever reason the game didn't provoke me into posting on an internet forum about how much of a wanker Jonathan Blow is but that seems to be a common side-effect. You'd think the man was a convicted criminal the way people rag on him.

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Old Swerdlow
Jul 24, 2008
Jonathan Blow sucks poo poo.

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