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no you see the government did secret medical experiments on unknowing citizens for the purpose of suppressing dissent as a joke
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Feb 21, 2021 23:48
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I finished the book on Ewen Cameron today and some maybe more interesting parts than Cameron’s own creepy depatterning and psychic driving was his McGill colleague Raymond Prince, who was funded to study Yoruba healing practices in Nigeria. Prince found that Yoruba practices were equally as effective at healing as the Allan Memorial Psychiatric Institute Cameron worked in, even though they are based in esoteric beliefs. Prince concluded that all of the power came from the strength of the personality of the healer and the submissiveness of the healed. it would actually make sense that most of Cameron’s success in psychiatry came from his personality (his colleagues and many patients saw him as a supra-human figure) since his techniques clearly weren’t helping. In CIA documents, they also mention that Prince, as a contact in Nigeria who would have had to learn Yoruba, would provide a connection for MK Ultra subproject 95, in which Charles Osgood from U of Illinois was trying to understand semantic systems in culture. for all of MK Ultra’s failings when it came to some simple solution to control like hypnosis, it looks like they were always looking at more effective and consistent forms of social control that get shadowed by lsd
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Feb 21, 2021 23:58
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Bathtub Cheese posted:Anticommunism was nothing more than cover for the US’ ulterior motive of quashing third world economic and political independence. Exaggerating the Soviet threat was at best an incredibly convenient bit of mental gymnastics, but more likely a conscious deception. The Cold War’s ostensible purpose was just as spurious as “terrorism” after 9/11 when lined up with what actually happened but it lasted decades lmao. this analysis requires the Third World and Non-aligned Movements to be completely independent of Communist movements. Communists and socialists were the backbone of a lot of formerly colonized countries' political and then economic independence struggles, and it's no coincidence that the end of the Cold War meant their defeat across most of the world it sort of reminds me how communists and anarchist who were purged during the US Red Scares have been mostly forgotten, and the liberals "wrongly" caught up in them are remembered as the true victims.
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Feb 22, 2021 00:01
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Remind me again the difference between Ewen Cameron and Jolly West?
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Feb 22, 2021 00:03
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What do folks think of Shutter Island? The premise is a US Marshal travels to an island housing a “radical new kind of criminal asylum” to investigate an escaped patient/prisoner. Mild Spoilers: the marshal begins to expect some kind of secret government operation going on. medium spoilers: the Marshal meets someone who tells him he’s been dosed with neuroleptics and they’re going to call him insane and trap him there. the most CSPAM part of the movie. major spoilers: the Marshall confronts the head doctor and is told this has all been an elaborate Roleplay along with his delusional belief he fabricated in order to not take responsibility for an actual past trauma. The movie tends to strongly endorse that final spoiler as the truth. What do folks think? Scorsese has touched on conspiracy topics before with his mafia movies, especially The Irishman. fr0id has issued a correction as of 00:06 on Feb 22, 2021 |
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Feb 22, 2021 00:04
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Happy Thread posted:Remind me again the difference between Ewen Cameron and Jolly West? West was constantly supported and used by the CIA. Cameron got one grant and then was shut out by the CIA when they realized his work was a sham.
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Feb 22, 2021 00:08
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Zook posted:I think learning about history is a good comparison, it is educating, and a lot of people find it enjoyable, myself included, learning history doesn't 'do' anything though, and investigating the pedophile cabal shouldn't itself be confused for activism, even if it makes you feel good nobody itt is under the impression that learning about this stuff is activism
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Feb 22, 2021 01:52
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gh0stpinballa posted:nobody itt is under the impression that learning about this stuff is activism
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Feb 22, 2021 02:36
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Zook posted:I think learning about history is a good comparison, it is educating, and a lot of people find it enjoyable, myself included, learning history doesn't 'do' anything though, and investigating the pedophile cabal shouldn't itself be confused for activism, even if it makes you feel good zook? what's a zook? you can't call me a zook
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Feb 22, 2021 03:06
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https://twitter.com/RespectIsVital/status/1363428868636487686
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Feb 22, 2021 03:20
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Feb 22, 2021 03:49
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That's a doozy 
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Feb 22, 2021 04:06
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Is he saying he did the killing?
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Feb 22, 2021 04:11
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Atrocious Joe posted:this analysis requires the Third World and Non-aligned Movements to be completely independent of Communist movements. Communists and socialists were the backbone of a lot of formerly colonized countries' political and then economic independence struggles, and it's no coincidence that the end of the Cold War meant their defeat across most of the world Thanks for pointing that out. I way overstated how "ulterior" the motive could have actually been in the many situations where large communist parties were involved in national liberation struggles. The Cold War amounted to a kind of campaign for imperialist economic conquest, with strident anticommunism as an ideological component of that strategy IMO. Toward the end of the Cold War, the implications of rapprochement with China and the Eastern Bloc's increasing caution toward the West probably weren't lost on the CIA either, and the economic warfare, coups, or color revolutions kept on going after the USSR fell.
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Feb 22, 2021 04:13
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Real hurthling! posted:Is he saying he did the killing? he doesn't seem to name names unless i'm misreading it? definitely says he orchestrated the statue of liberty plot to get rid of his bodyguards, he was present there, and the guy convicted was innocent
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Feb 22, 2021 04:13
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Riot Bimbo posted:That's a doozy
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Feb 22, 2021 04:13
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and yeah that's not really surprising but still sad and awful
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Feb 22, 2021 04:15
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Keep in mind all those murdered Black Lives Matter leaders over the last five years. It keeps happening.
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Feb 22, 2021 04:55
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Or MLK
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Feb 22, 2021 05:04
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thinking bout him
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Feb 22, 2021 15:52
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Real hurthling! posted:Is he saying he did the killing? reading between the lines, I assume that he fully confesses to the killing in the confession he left with his cousin to be released upon his death. this one just basically says "yeah it was me" without details.
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Feb 22, 2021 19:01
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gradenko_2000 posted:Lol these last two pages have been incredible content special shoutouts to the e2ee messaging app theorycrafters freakin pwning the Man
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Feb 22, 2021 19:38
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Feb 22, 2021 21:16
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: - ) ALL
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Feb 22, 2021 22:21
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Fried Watermelon posted:First episode of the Adam Curtis docuseries mentions discordianism and then briefly mentions the letters in Playboy. High Weirdness by Erik Davis. Brilliant book on RAW, Terence Mckenna and PKD. Mike Judge's podcast on the CIA, 1960s/1970s counterculture, discordianism, frigging Lee Harvey Oswald, Thomas Pynchon and such. If you can't be hosed reading High Weirdness then I'd recommend select episodes of Erik Davis' defunct podcast: Expanding Mind. wupwup
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Feb 24, 2021 04:32
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MeatwadIsGod posted:My read of the CIA is that their competence is proportional to their areas of influence. What you see throughout the Cold War is a total misreading of Soviet intentions, politics, culture, etc. because no one in the CIA could speak Russian let alone understand Marxism-Leninism or anything else. They get consistently outclassed by the KGB when it comes to traditional spycraft. But they're incredibly competent when it comes to places where they can exert influence more readily. Within the US and in US-allied western countries they can operate with impunity, create drug networks, etc. Then there's all the countries of the third world where they can orchestrate coups, install brutal kelptocrats, and enrich America's power elite. I'd say that influence will win over competence any day. You really, really don't have to be smart to succeed at things if you have the resources and keep trying dumb poo poo. I look at it this way. Look around at the people in power in any particular country. The president and the congress people, or prime minister and so on. How often are they in any way competent, vs how often are they complete loving idiots? Let's look at the military. How often is the US military competent? How does it constantly lose despite overwhelming resources and tech advantage? How often are CEOs competent? Does being rich prevent Elon Musk from constantly making a full of himself to anyone who can scrape a few braincells together? Yet the business world sees him as a divine genius. If the CIA was legitimately competent, they would be composed of the only competent influential individuals in the whole of the West. That's a hell of an exception. It really does not take much brains to make a mess of things, and that's the main goal of the CIA rather than anything coherent. It does not take much to find the most fascist or chaotic group in any geographic area and give them massive amounts of money. It does not take much doing to have influence if the people you turn to are already fascist and in power. You look at an organization like P2 in Italy, and do you think that people like that need a lot of convincing to be evil? Look how common Nazis are in any militarized system in any country - does it take much doing to set up something like Gladio? Does it take much effort to recruit those people? The CIA's job is incredibly easy, they have functionally infinite resources, and they have a drat large part of any particular country with the same goals. Lack of brain does not mean lack of influence, especially if your goal is chaos. And it does not mean they are any less dangerous. Arguably, being an erratic and insane wrecking ball is more dangerous than someone with restraint.
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Feb 24, 2021 18:45
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When I think hard about the CIAs effectiveness I think about all the poo poo they were doing in the 50s unknowingly insanely blasted on acid. I have a good lol after
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Feb 24, 2021 18:51
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Suplex Liberace posted:When I think hard about the CIAs effectiveness I think about all the poo poo they were doing in the 50s unknowingly insanely blasted on acid. I have a good lol after before that, during bluebird, they spent a bunch of time just trying to hypnotize each other and officemates. i think there's a story where someone claimed to have hypnotized a secretary to shoot another worker with a gun that had blanks in it.
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Feb 24, 2021 18:53
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Succumbing to hypnosis/mind control, only in america.
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Feb 24, 2021 19:04
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Lampsacus posted:If you want a diversion to this sort of history, I highly recommend two things. Thanks, just added that erik davis book to my queue. i just finished graham hancock's latest book and am now craving more psychedelic spirituality/esotericism
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Feb 24, 2021 19:52
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not sure how the idea that hypnosis is fake got started
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Feb 25, 2021 01:31
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Inverted Icon posted:not sure how the idea that hypnosis is fake got started through hypnosis
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Feb 25, 2021 04:12
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I still don’t really get what hypnosis looks like. I think of stage magic or the swinging watch. are there even standardized practices? I know of EEG work to show there’s something special about the trance state
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Feb 25, 2021 04:14
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stage hypnosis is a self selecting sample and 90% of it is picking the audience members who paid to get in that are attention seekers and folks who want permission to act out in public everything else closer to brainwashing or a hustle. its true some folks are highly suggestible but that can boil down a dozen different ways when youre trying to "hypnotize" them. most often its just a matter of pushing the same social pressure points a salesman would use. therapeutic hypnosis is a poo poo show The Saucer Hovers has issued a correction as of 05:00 on Feb 25, 2021 |
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Feb 25, 2021 04:51
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Extreme extreme lol at the concept of agency Apparently practicing hypnotists have a guild, similar to what I imagine the chiropractor guild looks like. This poo poo though is loving CRAY-CRAY https://www.sciencedirect.com/scien...n1mLomzJYixfAmA Some excerpts that may be of interest to the thread: -...with approximately 10–15% of the population displaying low hypnotic suggestibility, characterized by non-responsiveness or response to only a few suggestions, 60–80% displaying moderate responsiveness, and 10–15% exhibiting high hypnotic suggestibility, characterized by responsiveness to the majority of the suggestions including difficult cognitive-perceptual suggestions. -Responsiveness to hypnotic suggestions (hypnotic suggestibility or hypnotizability) can be reliably measured using standardized scales (Woody and Barnier, 2008). The measurement of hypnotic suggestibility typically involves a relaxation-based induction followed by suggestions of varying difficulty and content that usually target motor control, perception, and cognition (Bowers, 1993, Shor and Orne, 1962, Weitzenhoffer and Hilgard, 1962). Suggestions are scored on the basis of overt behavioral responses, although these can be supplemented with self-report scales indexing experiential response to the suggestions (Kirsch et al., 1990, Kirsch et al., 1998, Polito et al., 2013), which can help to discriminate compliant from genuine response to suggestion (Bowers et al., 1988). -Striking examples of this include the reliable efficacy of hypnotic suggestion to attenuate pain in the surgical suite (Agard et al., 2016, Facco, 2016, Faymonville et al., 1995). -Such distortions during hypnotic responding are elevated in high hypnotic suggestibility at a comparable magnitude to disruptions in the sense of agency in passivity symptoms experienced by patients with schizophrenia (Polito et al., 2015) and are perceived as more similar to truly passive than truly voluntary responses (Haggard et al., 2004) -As with most other hypnotic phenomena, the induction of false memories through hypnotic suggestion is most robust with suggestible individuals, although researchers have also reliably induced false memories with medium and low suggestible individuals (Lynn et al., 2009). -Moreover, ample evidence has accumulated for a role of long-range signals from, and interactions with, prefrontal and partial cortices in the implementation of top-down control over lower-level brain regions and corresponding psychological functions (Gazzaley and D’Esposito, 2007, Miller and Cohen, 2001). (wow such ethics) -One fMRI study compared suggested alien control over a motor response with a voluntary motor response in highly suggestible individuals (Walsh et al., 2015). They observed reduced activation in left supplementary motor area (SMA) and increased connectivity between SMA and precuneus and other regions, in the alien control, relative to the voluntary response, condition during a preparation phase when the instructions/suggestions were being given. - For example, one study found that suggestions for autoscopy (a visual hallucination of one’s own body) coupled with a suggestion for disembodiment (the perception of being physically detached from one’s body) was associated with reduced activation in right temporal parietal junction and medial prefrontal cortex relative to a control condition (Röder et al., 2007). This is notable because previous research has shown that direct electrical stimulation of right temporal parietal junction in an epilepsy patient reliably produced out-of-body experiences (Blanke et al., 2002
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Feb 25, 2021 05:26
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The neuro stuff is the only evidence of consistency they have. Alone, it doesn't mean much outside of hey we found some kind of reliable signal in the body that suggests something is actually happening. I guess I'm still just mystified about what it actually looks or feels like to be hypnotized. The confusion isn't helped that these leading researchers in the 50s and 60s were very prominent, a lot of them heading ivy league psychology departments. But at some point, the body of work being done really just falls off. I'd assume because it wasn't accessible enough to be studied or reliable. The conspiratorial interpretation might be that CIA/Military funding was enough to prop up a discipline and when that stopped, it fell out of a favour, though I dunno if I buy it as the core driver.
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Feb 25, 2021 05:46
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Oh man, I'm logged into my university. I didn't realize you needed credentials to read it(some are like that) or I would have chosen different excerpts. In a reliably and controllable way, hypnosis can -paralyze you -forge false memories and/or induce amnesia -deaden you to pain (straight up surgery under hypnosis) -induce hallucinations -select what holds your attention -other stuff that's hard for me to parse but has to do with stuff adjacent to what's already mentiond This is a result of numerous research group efforts ongoing up to the present day. In clinical research, hypnosis is used as a tool to study syndromes and stuff. So, they'll hypnotize someone into an out of body experience, look at the brain scans, and say 'hey, that's the part of the brain we poke to make epileptics feel the same thing!'. In clinical therapy, it's an aid to CBT, with some studies showing like 70% increase in smoking cessation and like compared to control groups only doing CBT. As for the sensation of being hypnotized, there are two stages: induction and suggestion. The induction is what puts you into 'the state'. They don't go into too much detail here that I can pick up, but they do mention that of all the different reported methods of induction, theyre basically indistinguishable in effect. Then, they suggest to you. From here, this is my understandig, which is undoubtable rough. The suggestions can be no stronger than non-hypnotized in effect, but because you're in the induced state, if fucks with how you monitor yourself. So, you have the perception that you're body is acting under an outside agency. For instance, practitioners don't say "move your hand up" they say "your hand moves up" to reinforce the idea that the hand moves under it's own power, separate from the agency of the hand's owner. Reinforcement of this idea can even help put you into the state, with the expectation of being put under the power of hypnosis facilitating hypnotic induction, where researchers noted an increase in suggestibility just with the use of the word 'hypnosis'. Theory and research are often backed up with fMRI data and other brain-imaging techiques. Published 2017, journal impact factor: 8.31 (a serious paper, not a bullshit one)
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Feb 25, 2021 06:25
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I live in and around a lot of it. It works. It doesn't work universally. At the end of the day, a lot of the trick is that, while you can't really incept something someone doesn't want to already do, you can absolutely play around with a lot of variables to stretch and pull what a given person finds acceptable. Like moving a mental overton window, until you're ready to blast fools while in a fugue state, or something more fun than that idk
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Feb 25, 2021 09:28
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So I learned that there was a second attempt on Gerald Ford's life (I had only known about the one by Squeaky Fromme) by a woman who had been an FBI informant who had been 'volunteering' at a charity org set up by Patty Hearst's father after hey kidnapping by the SLA (which was headed by a guy who had previously acted as an informant for the LAPD). lol
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Feb 25, 2021 10:24
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Inverted Icon posted:Oh man, I'm logged into my university. I didn't realize you needed credentials to read it(some are like that) or I would have chosen different excerpts. Riot Bimbo posted:I live in and around a lot of it. It works. That's wild--thanks both for sharing. It just always seemed steeped in esotericism that it felt very difficult to grasp. Historically, it comes from a place where science wasn't just highly quantified approaches as it is now, so hearing about it from those who experience it is really the best way to learn.
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Feb 25, 2021 12:01
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