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Gaz-L posted:How is furlough suiting you, Mr Swanson? Thank gently caress one of you ding dongs is finally getting the bit. It’s like pulling teeth.
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Feb 27, 2021 03:33
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Its Rinaldo posted:I think we're just gonna go round and round on this so I'll just say regardless of the depth of one person's grief I think offering people the option to mind wipe it away is just papering over the crime regardless of how powerful the perpetrator was/is and not a great solution. Like I said in an earlier post, there are no great solutions to this. The least worst one that I can see is that Wanda is persuaded to end the Hex and tries to heal/make things right for the people in Westview that she violated. Maybe Monica gets SWORD to put some kind of "research center" in Westview to help revive what looked to be a pretty lovely local economy. I mean it's grief and loss. There's nothing much messier than dealing with grief and loss.
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Feb 27, 2021 03:47
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Rehabilitation > Retribution Who cares about punitive justice. Make things right in other ways.
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Feb 27, 2021 03:48
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happyhippy posted:Love the stupidity of the Sword compound scene. Robot Hobo fucked around with this message at 04:20 on Feb 27, 2021 |
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Feb 27, 2021 04:17
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happyhippy posted:Love the stupidity of the Sword compound scene. I thought the same thing and assumed it was because the director (forget is name) set up the entire drat thing to manipulate Wanda. Him flat out dropping that she could resurrect Vision had all the subtlety of someone being like "imagined if we kissed?? Haha so funny right! What a joke! Although..." He said in the stinger that they had disassembled and reassembled Vision's body countless times, he clearly set up Vision all splayed out and getting carved up to have an emotional effect. That's almost certainly not his real office. He wanted her to react emotionally and resurrect vision, since that appears to be his whole thing. Hell when I saw the letter with the plot of land I assumed it was another attempt to manipulate her into doing exactly what she did. Great fricken episode. Great pacing, great acting, just overall good reveals, just solid stuff. I still don't know 100% what to believe but I feel like they're building to a satisfying conclusion which I was questioning back in episode 3. Great and fun stuff! edit: damnit beaten by 3 minutes
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Feb 27, 2021 04:20
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Yeah, I think the key thing to remember about that is that its been five years. So either (a) they've just been pulling Vision apart and back together for five years straight and were doing it conveniently at the exact time Wanda showed up or (b) Hayworth orchestrated all of that after 5 years of frustration and failed attempts hoping he could goad Wanda into jumpstarting Vision. You can assume the first if you just assume bad writing, but the latter actually makes narrative and character sense.
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Feb 27, 2021 04:39
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"it doesn't matter if you do bad things as long as you were manipulated into doing it" is not a great lesson and I hope that's not what this show boutta do
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Feb 27, 2021 04:39
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What I really want is for episode 9 of Wandavision to open with an extended "Previously, on Wandavision" segment that explains the entire story in detail up to that point. Done by Ant-Man's buddy, Luis.
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Feb 27, 2021 04:46
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This debate feels like its clashing with philosophical ideas of punitive punishment. Why are we talking about the show saying "its ok what Wanda's done?" The show's spent weeks having her talk to her husband and brother asking if what she's doing is ok. It spent the entire episode last week having her wallow in her guilt about what she was doing. Wanda's unlikely to end up locked in a cage when this is done, but does that mean she's likely to end up being told everything she did was alright? There's space in between and it feels like as soon as the idea of Wanda as the 100% villain got dashed some decided the show's saying she's 100% innocent. Which doesn't feel like the message the narrative has been telling at all.
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Feb 27, 2021 04:49
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Robot Hobo posted:What I really want is for episode 9 of Wandavision to open with an extended "Previously, on Wandavision" segment that explains the entire story in detail up to that point. So, basically a two-hour season finale with one hour completely taken up by Michael Peña doing a full recap filled with divergences, like the Morrissey bit. drat you for making me want that now.
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Feb 27, 2021 04:52
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Robot Hobo posted:What I really want is for episode 9 of Wandavision to open with an extended "Previously, on Wandavision" segment that explains the entire story in detail up to that point. Ngl this is one of the few times they could pull that out and I'd be totally ok with it, especially as a sort of cleanser right before the full episode.
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Feb 27, 2021 04:59
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loving great stuff! I never expected White Vision, although I was really kind of hoping I didn't want to say it. Also the twist that Hayward strait up lied and fabricated the footage of Wanda stealing Vision's body I did not see coming, nor that the Vision inside the Hex is one that Wanda literally made herself and that's why he couldn't leave it. That's WILD, and it'll be interesting to see what the implications of that are. Also looking forward more than ever to what Pietro's actual deal is now with all the dodging Agatha did around it. Also LOVE Agatha's full witch costume and the fact that this episode seems to have framed her as less villain and more anti-hero based on that last scene. "Chaos Magic!? You're THE SCARLET WITCH!  " Real 'Obi-wan, Yoda and Mace Windu having a tense and awkward conversation about what the Chosen One Prophecy Actually Means,' vibe in the way she said that. Also there's a pretty clear implication in how she sneers at 'your children,' that the kids are indeed raw constructs of Wanda's magic, and THAT should have some interesting implications as well.Also satisfied that they've really made it clear that Wanda did all this herself, and did it out of an explosion of grief. She's culpable, but still entirely sympathetic, it wasn't some psychotic premeditated plot where she didn't care who got hurt if she got what she wanted, its was a moment of pain and passion and a mistake that she can now fix. The interesting question is what her consequences for having done it will ultimately be. Also I couldn't find out if Phillip Jones in the comics was a piano player, the Marvel wiki lists his profession as "House Husband," so no idea if that was a Dotti = Arcanna tease. I still think that's going to happen, even if its not relevant to this series her becoming a superhero/witch could still be a consequences of the finale's events as a way to set up Squadron Supreme.
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Feb 27, 2021 05:00
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STAC Goat posted:This debate feels like its clashing with philosophical ideas of punitive punishment. This for me. It seems like some people are saying "The only acceptable way for this to end is with Wanda dead, imprisoned or lobotomized. Otherwise she's getting off scot-free." I mean, Wanda letting the Hex go (and thus effectively killing Vision again and killing her children) and then trying to heal the people in Westview that she violated seems like a reasonable ending. Yes, Wanda did an awful thing, but she's paid a price for doing that awful thing and she's trying to make up for the awful thing she did. I was watching The Avengers movie and recall the Loki/Natasha scene with Loki posing the question of "Can you wipe out that much red? Drakoff's daughter? Sao Paulo? The hospital fire?" So the implication is that once upon a time Natasha Romanoff did some pretty awful poo poo pre-SHIELD. poo poo awful enough that Clint Barton was sent to kill her, but he chose a different path and in so doing helped put Natasha on a better path as well. Maybe a lot of the people Natasha hurt would be disappointed that a pound of her flesh wasn't claimed in retribution, but maybe it's a good thing that some folks in the MCU recognize that punishment isn't everything and that an "eye for an eye" will eventually blind the world.
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Feb 27, 2021 05:05
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Everyone posted:I was watching The Avengers movie and recall the Loki/Natasha scene with Loki posing the question of "Can you wipe out that much red? Drakoff's daughter? Sao Paulo? The hospital fire?" So the implication is that once upon a time Natasha Romanoff did some pretty awful poo poo pre-SHIELD. poo poo awful enough that Clint Barton was sent to kill her, but he chose a different path and in so doing helped put Natasha on a better path as well. Maybe a lot of the people Natasha hurt would be disappointed that a pound of her flesh wasn't claimed in retribution, but maybe it's a good thing that some folks in the MCU recognize that punishment isn't everything and that an "eye for an eye" will eventually blind the world. There's a really strong running theme in the MCU that even if you've done some supremely hosed up stuff that objectively made the world a worse place and ruined lives in unimaginable ways, you can "come back" if you're sincere enough. mind the walrus fucked around with this message at 05:14 on Feb 27, 2021 |
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Feb 27, 2021 05:11
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So it looks like my theory was correct. The mind stone did not give her powers, they've now retconned that. It connected her mind to a different universe Scarlet Witch and her powers came from that. This may be my first succesful MCU guess!
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Feb 27, 2021 05:15
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grain of salt, but leaked finale episode length from someone on Reddit who accurately leaked the lengths of episode 7 and 8: 50 minutes, credits included. Longest episode of the series by a few minutes, still not sure that'll be enough time with all the balls up in the air
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Feb 27, 2021 05:15
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As the guy who most recently voiced some dissatisfaction with the ideas of Wanda not facing consequences I'd just like to say i specifically said I don't want her killed or tormented or any revenchist stuff.
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Feb 27, 2021 05:33
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Its Rinaldo posted:lol My favorite thing about this show is how much it's leaned into the existential horror of its premise from the word "go". It's obviously borrowing a lot from a classic episode of Twilight Zone that also made it into the movie, and adding the SWORD plotline on top of that makes the whole thing feel like an impossibly-high-budget SCP miniseries. What a time to be alive. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBqTbiFGkmo
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Feb 27, 2021 05:36
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mind the walrus posted:Plus Clint himself went full-on Punisher for several years during Endgame. Thor's arc in Endgame is about being a fuckup and getting redeemed. Civil War's beef between Tony and Steve does get resolved. Literally everything about Hulk's victims, and hell Tony's victims. Bucky's entire premise. Wanda herself, in Lagos. Nebula and Gamora working for Thanos. Yondu's child abuse. There's probably loads of dark poo poo in Wakanda's history we don't know about, plus Asgard's poo poo in Ragnarok. There's all of Loki's poo poo too. For real. In Civil War Cap tries to absolve Bucky of all the decades of assassinations and black ops and helping Hydra destabilize the world by saying he didn't really do those things, it was the Winter Soldier programming. Bucky's only response is "But I did." And Steve has nothing to say to that. In Endgame we see Gamora executing one of Thanos' many wars of actual genocide, and in Guardian's 2 the Ravagers refer to Nebula as "the biggest sadist in the galaxy," and she replies that she can't indulge that anymore because "daddy," isn't "paying her bills," anymore. Almost every Marvel movie has featured some fallout from Tony's time as an arms dealer than he quits being an arms dealer in literally the first movie of the franchise! The MCU is not afraid to put the deeds of their heroes in pretty stark relief and to keep reminding us that they happened and to keep having consequences for those past deeds come knocking. The point being that its pretty clear that the Marvel Universe's main focus when it comes to past crimes is a focus on internal atonement. The individual that did the crime (or in T'challas case the son taking responsibility for the father's crimes) recognizes that they did wrong and endeavors to either fix it or put some good into the world to balance out the bad they've done or both. The only people who can't be redeemed in the MCU ethos are the people who refuse to recognize that they've done wrong, who are either amoral and thus don't care about the harm caused by their crimes, or try to justify that harm as necessary to claim either a lack of responsibility or that the ends justified the means. That's one reason why Loki was a compelling character, he had a conscience and was constantly on the verge of accepting that the things he'd done were bad, but he kept falling back into amorality or justification and so you just kept wanting him to finally get there. This was ultimately the heart of the conflict in Civil War. Doing big, important things, being a Superhero, having incredible power, is inevitably going to lead to people getting hurt regardless of your intentions. Whether that collateral harm comes because you're fighting a monster and it crashes into a skyscraper, it comes because you choose to use your power in pursuit of a goal that will by its nature lead to people being hurt, or because your very existence as a de facto living weapon creates a possibility that you can be used by others (Bucky) or even by your own pain in a moment of emotional weakness (Wanda) to do harm, its going to happen. So what do you do about that when you're forced to confront the results of your actions, the pain of the people you hurt? Is accepting oversight on your actions tantamount to abrogating your responsibility? Is staying the course regardless of the harm you cause tantamount to playing god? Think about Wanda's specific situation in that particular movie. She tries to save people, and inadvertently kills a bunch of innocents in the process. Feeling guilty, she supports the notion of oversight on her actions rather than continuing to act on her own accord. But then that oversight demands that she surrender her personal freedoms more-or-less entirely. Vision tries to persuade her that its for the best, that people will come to see that she's not a threat over time and her freedoms will return. But her ultimate perspective on the issue is that giving up so many of her rights to the fear of the majority is an act of personal cowardice and she can't live with herself if she accepts it. So the question is, what do the victims harmed by her actions think about that? Would they accept her point of view, that spending the rest of her life without freedom because of the fear of what she might do and because of the collateral harm of her past best intentions is wrong? Or would they say "gently caress you, you stay in prison, you killed my family so you don't get to make that choice anymore, the State does, or I do, that's what justice means." Is that perspective more reasonable than Wandas? Do we weight it more regardless of its reasonableness because they are the ones that suffered harm and Wanda is the perpetrator? None of these are easy questions mind you, but the MCU's theming seems to lean toward the answer being no. Not dismissing it out of hand, not pretending that its an illegitimate perspective, but saying that the other way, the way of personal motivated atonement, is the better way, and its only when that path totally collapses or is rejected that justice need be forced upon those who inflict harm.
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Feb 27, 2021 05:59
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Gaz-L posted:It's actually unclear if the crew that came with him was in on it, considering almost all of them are in the Hex now, some of them might be old guard that he feared would side with Monica out of loyalty to Maria or the Avengers. And Darcy and the other nerds brought in were civilians, and Woo's a federal agent for another agency, so openly saying "Hey, we're vivisecting one of the people who saved the whole world like 3 times and the lady in that town didn't like that much" might have gotten a call to the press or the White House. Also, the people who think he's justified even slightly... if Captain America had died and this dude tried to reanimate the corpse because the super-soldier serum is 'government property', no-one would defend it. That's basically what he's doing seeing as everything the movies and the show gives us depicts Vision as a sapient being. Back in episode 5, Woo outright said that Wanda resurrecting Vision would be in violation of the Sokovia accords.
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Feb 27, 2021 05:59
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I'm gonna be super sad if they kill Vision again. Like real sad.
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Feb 27, 2021 06:01
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fractalairduct posted:Back in episode 5, Woo outright said that Wanda resurrecting Vision would be in violation of the Sokovia accords. She's already an outlaw vis a vis those accords though. Unless the Avengers all got amnesty for, you know, saving half the lives in the universe. Which I could believe.
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Feb 27, 2021 06:05
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Its Rinaldo posted:I'm gonna be super sad if they kill Vision again. Like real sad. I think what’ll end up happening is Wanda Vision (ohhh now i get it) will end up merging with SWORD Vision somehow to become Vision 2.0
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Feb 27, 2021 06:07
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Its Rinaldo posted:As the guy who most recently voiced some dissatisfaction with the ideas of Wanda not facing consequences I'd just like to say i specifically said I don't want her killed or tormented or any revenchist stuff. yeah I just think that the show should make it clear that it is not okay to mind control people because you feel bad, I don't think Wanda should SUFFER or whatever like get outta here with that poo poo
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Feb 27, 2021 06:08
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So wait a second. Agatha has what amounts to a Wanda-safe bunker where she can't do magic, and instead of dealing with her there, she chooses to face this nexus of chaos magic out in the streets where she can do whatever she wants? Bold strategy Cotton
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Feb 27, 2021 06:08
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McCloud posted:So wait a second. Agatha has what amounts to a Wanda-safe bunker where she can't do magic, and instead of dealing with her there, she chooses to face this nexus of chaos magic out in the streets where she can do whatever she wants? To be fair, her power seems to be to drink magic and the people who use it like the proverbial milkshake. Maybe she WANTS Wanda to attack her now that she's confirmed the true nature of her power.
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Feb 27, 2021 06:10
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Sanguinia posted:To be fair, her power seems to be to drink magic and the people who use it like the proverbial milkshake. Maybe she WANTS Wanda to attack her now that she's confirmed the true nature of her power. I sure hope so, because otherwise that was what one might consider a real boner
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Feb 27, 2021 06:18
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So did that whole Wakandan plotline regarding Vision's body from Infinity War just go nowhere? Because the implication is that nothing worked in restoring Vision until they got access to some of Wanda's powers. I do agree with the consensus that Heyward has planned this out for awhile. I'm not convinced that he is another character masquerading as Heyward, but that he wants to bring Vision back for reasons probably involving the post-Endgame status quo where several Avengers are dead and/or inactive and SWORD feels like they need Vision back. It definitely feels to me like they couldn't get anything to work in resurrecting Vision, but somehow Heyward figured out that Wanda could pull it off, so he started this whole ploy to get her to bring him back. I guess having access to her powers is the next best thing. My general thought right now is that her kids, who are clearly a creation of Wanda (or possibly even Agatha since they have indicated a few times this season that Wanda can't directly make them do things with her powers like she can with the other people in the town) will probably go away by the end which causes her powers to grow even more. Based on that 1600s scene at the beginning of this episode, I get the feeling that Agatha has some kind of compulsion to seek out sources of magic that are strong, and that is what led her to Westview in the first place. I'm really struggling to figure out how they are going to wrap everything up by the end of this final episode. It feels like they need two more.
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Feb 27, 2021 06:19
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McCloud posted:So wait a second. Agatha has what amounts to a Wanda-safe bunker where she can't do magic, and instead of dealing with her there, she chooses to face this nexus of chaos magic out in the streets where she can do whatever she wants?
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Feb 27, 2021 06:20
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https://twitter.com/OctopusCaveman/status/1365519913373241349?s=19
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Feb 27, 2021 06:27
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So it's supposedly one more episode and then a "making of" episode, right? Morbidly curious as to whether that ends up actually being part of the show and an integral part of the climax. Or one of those "after-show/watch party" things they do for lovely prestige TV: "Talking Vision", where it turns out the villains were actually Chris Hardwick and Special Guest, WandaVision Super-Fan Mr. Paul F. Tompkins, who proceed to bombard Elizabeth and Paul's sanity with an endless stream of fan speculations, thereby creating the multiverse.
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Feb 27, 2021 06:30
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Nothing more communist than a guy who gets paid to hunt people down to put them in prison!
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Feb 27, 2021 06:30
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Or a character in the show who had to work at least a hundred years to buy themselves out of slavery! Communism!
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Feb 27, 2021 06:41
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Ugh, I hate that whole "There were real witches at Salem!" trope. Not only is it a tired cliché, it often implies that Salem Village really was threatened by dangerous magic users and so the witch trials were at least partially justified. (The VVitch is one of the few justified uses of the trope because that story is specifically about the Puritans' isolation, religious paranoia, and possible ergot poisoning making them turn on each other. Another one is Hocus Pocus, because how can you not like Hocus Pocus?) Anyway, glad we got to see Agatha's full costume, since we only caught a glimpse of it in the previous episode. Also, I still wonder if Frank is real. As Wanda said when she put in her vibrator: "Heh, that's a bit of a stretch."
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Feb 27, 2021 06:45
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Pththya-lyi posted:Ugh, I hate that whole "There were real witches at Salem!" trope. Not only is it a tired cliché, it often implies that Salem Village really was threatened by dangerous magic users and so the witch trials were at least partially justified. (The VVitch is one of the few justified uses of the trope because that story is specifically about the Puritans' isolation, religious paranoia, and possible ergot poisoning making them turn on each other. Another one is Hocus Pocus, because how can you not like Hocus Pocus?) I... think that's a pretty big stretch. I don't think I've ever seen a "Witches were in Salem," story that even implied that the village was threatened by the witches living there, or that the Puritans were not loving psychos and their trials a complete farcical sham. Except Scooby Doo and the Witches' Ghost, and even that story was like "Ok, there was ONE evil witch, the broken clock was right one time, but they also killed a bunch of innocent people including explicitly good witches." That being said I didn't really get that that was supposed to be Salem in the intro anyway. It was literally just "spooky woods and old-timey clothes," it could have been any witches coven anywhere and any pre-industrial post-medieval time.
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Feb 27, 2021 06:51
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Its Rinaldo posted:I'm gonna be super sad if they kill Vision again. Like real sad.
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Feb 27, 2021 06:58
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mind the walrus posted:You're gonna be super sad. I know 
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Feb 27, 2021 07:06
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Sanguinia posted:I... think that's a pretty big stretch. I don't think I've ever seen a "Witches were in Salem," story that even implied that the village was threatened by the witches living there, or that the Puritans were not loving psychos and their trials a complete farcical sham. At 1 minute 30 seconds it says "Salem, Massachusetts 1693"
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Feb 27, 2021 07:06
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Its Rinaldo posted:I know I'm with you. Hank Pym gets the attention in the comics, but really Wanda and Vision are the universe's true punching bags.
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Feb 27, 2021 07:10
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pik_d posted:At 1 minute 30 seconds it says "Salem, Massachusetts 1693"  And I argue that a witch like Agatha would've posed a legitimate threat to Salem Village. She's not interested in staying within limits or in caring about other people, only in increasing her own power at any cost. Look what she did to her coven! Look what she's doing to Wanda just to learn the secret of her magic! So even if the MCU Salemites only executed innocents, they were right about a threat to the community existing in the form of a witch, and right to want to do something about it. That would make the witch trials partially justified. 
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Feb 27, 2021 07:15
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