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I'm making myself very sad and angry trying to navigate the yawning causal gulf between "100 year old man, who did laps of his garden on a zimmer frame because the NHS isn't properly funded, is killed by family holibobs" and "Britane gud  "
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Feb 27, 2021 14:48
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OwlFancier posted:You are doing exactly the thing I am describing, yes, I know that people where I live often eat chicken with cheese on, I also know that they put lemon on ice cream. But I don't get somehow misty eyed and waving a boro kit around thinking about them, they're there if I want them but why do I need to believe they are super unique and special? Why do you feel personally attacked by my lack of appropriate reverence for them? I'm not sure that is what you were saying though. Obviously all of those things can happen elsewhere and Teesside isn't 'better' than anywhere, but that isn't what I'm talking about. You can appreciate the unique blend of local oddities that makes your home your home, whether that be your local area or your country, without saying it's better or even implying that. They might not be super unique individually but the blend of all those things together does create a culture that feels unique to the people who are part of it, simply because no other place would be the same. It is, in a sense, unique as a whole, more than the sum of its parts. I don't feel personally attacked, I just think that smugly pointing out that all humans everywhere believe that their corner is nice and special isn't all that helpful a way to go about things, particularly if you want people to listen to your views on how their place and society should operate. Like nothing you're saying is exactly wrong. It's just a bit robotic and ultimately that line of thinking will never endear anyone to your politics. The right wins for millions of reasons but one thing I think it rightly wins on, and that we could do with engaging with, is it doesn't tend to tell people they're wrong for enjoying the things they enjoy or generally raining on their parade. Boris is popular partly because of his inate optimism. You never feel like Boris would tell you off (well, I do, I kept getting indirectly told off by him last summer, but he doesn't have that general air). Whereas when we go around yelling about how Britain is poo poo and you shouldn't be proud of where you come from, we might be right but no one's going to want to listen and I can't blame them.
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Feb 27, 2021 14:51
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peanut- posted:Rishi is clearly itching to get stuck into austerity 2 so I wouldn't bet on it.
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Feb 27, 2021 14:52
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watching the cricket with warm pints of bitter in glasses with handles, the smell of the sunday papers, jumpers for goal posts mmnneeeeeuurgh  (alan partridge noise)
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Feb 27, 2021 14:53
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Wachter posted:I'm making myself very sad and angry trying to navigate the yawning causal gulf between "100 year old man, who did laps of his garden on a zimmer frame because the NHS isn't properly funded, is killed by family holibobs" and "Britane gud The trick is to never analyse it. Never analyse anything.
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Feb 27, 2021 14:54
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his oval office family are pimping out his image on bottles of over-priced gin now 
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Feb 27, 2021 14:56
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There's a difference between having a project to make Britain something to be proud of and celebrate the things that are actually good, like the NHS (drawing a blank here other than a medical system based on need rather than wealth). Sinking into the kind of nationalism that screams WHY DO YOU HATE BRITANE JEREMY every time anyone tries to point out its many, many problems is bad and ignoring the problems, many of which still affect minorities and the non ham-tinged. I feel like there's a way of doing the former without falling prey to the latter, but generally it involves not getting misty eyed about idealised versions of things and working to better your nation. It also involves not calling it nationalism, because as an ideology that word will always attract a certain destructive level of denial, racism and jingoism.
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Feb 27, 2021 14:56
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https://twitter.com/MirrorPolitics/status/1363921222577381385 boris still having huge popularity despite poo poo like this is proof that the english are trash
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Feb 27, 2021 14:56
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Guavanaut posted:They (and will) can do what they like in the short term, but if "big collaborative projects are impressive and work" solidifies in the public mindset that could be the start of a longer term shift. 
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Feb 27, 2021 14:56
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OwlFancier posted:That, again, though, is not "british", people all over the world have done that at one point or another, I think people would do that all the time if not for things like british national idealism. Because it is much easier to sit on your arse and rub poppies on your dick while thinking about the queen than it is to actually do all that poo poo. People are capable of improving their lot in life off their own back, people put up shelter, grow food, make things easier for themselves of their own volition and have all over the planet for all of human history. What is stopping people from doing that is exactly this stupid commodified nationalist-capitalist horseshit culture and societal structure that says no, you can't improve your life, you can't control your home, you can't control your job, you can't excercise your basic human capability for tool use and constructiveness to improve anything, all you can do is love the flag and consume and let britain sort all that out for you. Because britain loves you, despite all evidence to the contrary, and you must love it back all the way into your grave, which will be all the sooner for britain's efforts. I'm not sure I'd characterise the 1945-1979 British state as 'getting out of the way', given that it was extremely (by previous or current standards) proactive in at least trying to sort poo poo out. Perhaps more akin to a firefighter who turns arsonist and is extremely proactive in putting out his own fires, given how most of the problems that were alleviated in that period only existed because of the 300 previous years of imperialist capitalism. I don't think anyone's saying that council houses or other socially progressive policies are uniquely British. Other places did it better than us even when we were doing it, and have continued to do so when we gave up. That's no different from trying to claim Democracy or The Rule of Law as a British value. This isn't about the impossible task of pinning down what the gently caress is uniquely British (or uniquely any-other-nationality, for that matter). It's about the lost sense of that-entity-that-is Britain actually existing in terms of social fabric. The common experiences that have been removed by the way neoliberalism fragments, privatises and commodifies everything. If you want to shoot for a post-state utopia where human nature can flourish on its own then go for it - a noble goal. Speaking for myself I'm too politically timid and incrementalist to really invest in that as a path to go down in 2021 and probably too cynical and (small c)onservative to embrace it as an ideology. I'm happy to admit that I'm probably too wrapped up in my bougie British upbringing to properly let go of it, but so are the vast majority of people on these Atlantic rocks. I'd take moving things towards "the state can do things to make your life better" before "abolish the state and full communism (automated, gay, luxury, space or not) now". Call it latent Toryism, ideological cowardice, naivety or whatever, but I think that, as things sit here and now, it's much more possible to convince people to back a project that promises to make the UK better by doing a lot of good leftie stuff than one which tells people their sense of identity is a sham and that the entity they've built that identity on needs to be liquidated for the good of humanity. However much of a hard truth that would be. Edit: Or, more succinctly: Bobby Deluxe posted:There's a difference between having a project to make Britain something to be proud of and celebrate the things that are actually good, like the NHS (drawing a blank here other than a medical system based on need rather than wealth). BalloonFish fucked around with this message at 15:02 on Feb 27, 2021 |
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Feb 27, 2021 14:59
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bump_fn posted:https://twitter.com/MirrorPolitics/status/1363921222577381385 Boris Johnson banning sex is one of the funniest things that's happened. Like having Jabba the Hutt enforce a healthy diet. Or having Boris Johnson enforce a healthy diet.
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Feb 27, 2021 15:00
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Jakabite posted:I'm not sure that is what you were saying though. Obviously all of those things can happen elsewhere and Teesside isn't 'better' than anywhere, but that isn't what I'm talking about. You can appreciate the unique blend of local oddities that makes your home your home, whether that be your local area or your country, without saying it's better or even implying that. They might not be super unique individually but the blend of all those things together does create a culture that feels unique to the people who are part of it, simply because no other place would be the same. It is, in a sense, unique as a whole, more than the sum of its parts. I don't feel personally attacked, I just think that smugly pointing out that all humans everywhere believe that their corner is nice and special isn't all that helpful a way to go about things, particularly if you want people to listen to your views on how their place and society should operate. I'm really getting tired of trying to communicate this point so I am going to try one more time before I just get angry. This is not an affectation, this is how my life has made me feel. I am tired of people like you telling me that the problem is not, in fact, the country I live in and what it does, the problem is that I, personally, am not more optimistic, that I should be more patriotic, that I'm just looking to talk britain down. That I'm a stupid lefty who will never get anywhere in life with that attitude. If that is what really matters to you, whether you couch it in "oh well the general public thinks that I'm just saying" or whether you have the guts to own it yourself, then fine, there are plenty of people in the country who would agree with you, and I hope you find a happy home with them, because I am not going to pretend that I do not have good reasons for feeling the way I do, just so that your flag covered ego doesn't get bruised.
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Feb 27, 2021 15:01
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*sits at my press conference desk in front of camera doing serious face* we understand that many of you have missed eating rear end, so from midnight on Thursday, you may perform or receive analingus with one partner...
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Feb 27, 2021 15:01
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How is Sarwar politically?
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Feb 27, 2021 15:03
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These posts work better in this orderbitterandtwisted posted:How is Sarwar politically? crispix posted:*sits at my press conference desk in front of camera doing serious face*
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Feb 27, 2021 15:06
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i miss old tereezer may with her mad warbling and facial spasms
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Feb 27, 2021 15:10
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Gonzo McFee posted:Boris Johnson banning sex is one of the funniest things that's happened. Like having Jabba the Hutt enforce a healthy diet. Or having Boris Johnson enforce a healthy diet. Remember the month when Johnson went on a brief health kick after almost dying from the plague he let loose, then started lecturing people about their weight? It seems to have lasted even less time than my diet attempts do.
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Feb 27, 2021 15:11
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Jakabite posted:Sorry that you don't know about parmos, Club Bongo, lemon tops or the doggers on the South Gare I guess. It's this sort of thing that repulses people from the left. I think that's even less believable than the usual 'people hate the left because...' stories. People who dislike me and my politics usually talk about my accent, my education, my sexuality, or my benefits. No one gives a drat whether I like pasties.
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Feb 27, 2021 15:12
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stev posted:Remember the month when Johnson went on a brief health kick after almost dying from the plague he let loose, then started lecturing people about their weight? It seems to have lasted even less time than my diet attempts do. It's worth noting the man's a hedonistic wanker. He drinks constantly, eats constantly and can't keep his dick to himself. This was mistaken for liberalism for a long time because otherwise they'd have to confront that he's just a massive hypocrite as well.
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Feb 27, 2021 15:14
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bitterandtwisted posted:How is Sarwar politically? Former vice-chair of Progress. But its ok, he considers himself a supporter of Brown and has criticised Blair [citationneeded]
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Feb 27, 2021 15:14
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stev posted:Remember the month when Johnson went on a brief health kick after almost dying from the plague he let loose, then started lecturing people about their weight? It seems to have lasted even less time than my diet attempts do. I fully expect to find out that Trump is still taking it and will die of a heart attack within the year.
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Feb 27, 2021 15:19
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Gonzo McFee posted:It's worth noting the man's a hedonistic wanker. He drinks constantly, eats constantly and can't keep his dick to himself. This is a fourth type of liberalism.
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Feb 27, 2021 15:20
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bitterandtwisted posted:How is Sarwar politically? off the top of my head, millionaire business owner who screws his employees out of a decent wage and attacked them for trying to unionize salt of the earth, man of the people etc
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Feb 27, 2021 15:32
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think we really need to start putting quotes around "Labour" from now on
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Feb 27, 2021 15:37
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lame-bour
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Feb 27, 2021 15:40
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Pods got big guests this week to revisit some of the most psychotic highlights of Brexit Discourse for you to enjoy over the weekend! https://twitter.com/PraxisCast/status/1365671986316328962?s=19
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Feb 27, 2021 15:40
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can't say I expected to wake up to see people arguing in favour of Teesside, that's a new one.
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Feb 27, 2021 15:40
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bump_fn posted:lame-bour
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Feb 27, 2021 15:59
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OwlFancier posted:I'm really getting tired of trying to communicate this point so I am going to try one more time before I just get angry. That's how you feel and that's fine - I never said it was an affectation so I'm not sure where you've got that from. it's a valid way to feel but it isn't a wise stance for a movement to take. The two can be separated.
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Feb 27, 2021 16:00
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bitterandtwisted posted:How is Sarwar politically? He's done a lot to challenge regressive taxation. By committing ridiculous VAT fraud* and ensuring his staff don't pay too much NI what with not paying them the living wage his party campaigned for. *Technically not him because the business was split between his brother, his dad, and his uncle, into companies with the same name and premises.
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Feb 27, 2021 16:10
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Jakabite posted:That's how you feel and that's fine - I never said it was an affectation so I'm not sure where you've got that from. it's a valid way to feel but it isn't a wise stance for a movement to take. The two can be separated. You don't believe that, you have repeatedly said you think it is wrong to not affirm people's nationalism, that not doing that is just smug lefty scolding. So no, you don't think it is a valid way to feel, because if you did you wouldn't be so fixated on ensuring that it doesn't see any political representation. At least some people have the courage to tell me that clearly.
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Feb 27, 2021 16:20
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OwlFancier posted:You don't believe that, you have repeatedly said you think it is wrong to not affirm people's nationalism, that not doing that is just smug lefty scolding. So no, you don't think it is a valid way to feel, because if you did you wouldn't be so fixated on ensuring that it doesn't see any political representation. At least some people have the courage to tell me that clearly. I think it's arguably true that you should affirm people's tribal identities at some point on the road to helping them understand it's all a load of bullshit.
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Feb 27, 2021 16:25
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i'm fed up with the union jacks all over food packaging, myself inside of my fridge sometimes looks like some borrowers have been throwing a VE day party in there
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Feb 27, 2021 16:25
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Beefeater1980 posted:I think it's arguably true that you should affirm people's tribal identities at some point on the road to helping them understand it's all a load of bullshit. Even if I believed that, which I don't, I especially don't get the impression that the person going on about how the left are too miserable and too focused on telling people off because they don't see the appeal of flag waving horseshit, is particularly interested in helping anybody understand that it's a load of bullshit.
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Feb 27, 2021 16:30
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I think people are arguing different things a bit. It's definitely true that saying "this country sucks" will annoy a large proportion of the population, and this should be considered when building a platform. I would also suggest it's true that being able to say "this place is a pretty good place to live"* is a significant end goal of socialism/communism/UKMTism. This doesn't need to imply being "better" than anywhere else, or even unique (except in the trivial sense, like how every person is unique). As usual, the liberals want to skip to the end of this process. Is the problem whether it hinges on "Britain"? I can see rebranding socialism as "making Britane Grate agane" being problematic. But I think Jakabite and Guava(?) have a point that some of that rah rah energy could be redirected into "yes and why don't we have good trains/easy GP appointments/15 kids max per class...", and slowly pull the hook away from "...as a Great country like us deserves" and towards "...like every human deserves". Maybe that's unrealistic though. I don't know.
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Feb 27, 2021 16:41
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i am unapologetic for being miserable and calling jingoistic people thick bastards so long as i can do so without getting thumped or having something thrown at me
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Feb 27, 2021 16:41
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It's almost like I pointed out that material things like jobs and housing and transport had gotten poo poo because of the actions of the flagfucking freaks and all I got in response was complaining about how I'm too dour. Maybe the nationalism is the point. Maybe the thing they object to is anything that impedes them sticking their fingers in their ears and saying everything is fine.
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Feb 27, 2021 16:46
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Any improvement to society is going to be associated with Britain as a sociopolitical entity, and you can't prevent that from happening so long as the state exists and is the one rubber-stamping these improvements. There is going to be at least some amount of flag-shagging involved whether the government of the day directly engages with it or not.
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Feb 27, 2021 16:47
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I really am struggling to tell what you are arguing for OwlFancier. People have emotional connections with the places where they live that make those places important to them, but they aren't actually objectively important or special so gently caress those morons something something this is nationalism? I understand why you say that Britain is poo poo and actively hostile to its inhabitants, that's a pretty basic observation. But you seem unwilling even to admit the possibility of a society that isn't like that, or allow that there might be parts of even British society that are not completely hopeless. It doesn't so much come over as "solidarity with all the peoples of the Earth, abolish borders and work together for a better world", but just as weirdly parochial and defeatist.
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Feb 27, 2021 16:49
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Doctor_Fruitbat posted:Any improvement to society
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Feb 27, 2021 16:50
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