|
There are parts of society, in the geographic area that constitutes britain, that can be good, but they are not "british", we don't own them, they are not unique to here, they are things that every human civilization everywhere manages to do. The obsession with thinking in terms of nations being good or bad is a complete loving waste of time. I do not care whether you love the UK so very much and want to gently caress it in the bum every night any more than I care that you really love a my little pony character and want to gently caress it as well. I want actual material things, I want a roof over my head that is secure, I want food on the table reliably, and I am sick and tired of people when you point out that you don't have those things just going "oh why do you hate your culture, why do you hate your country, you should have pride, you should love this and that" blah blah loving christ just shoot me. The people who go on about that poo poo are wasting my time, they are talking about nonsense, about things that aren't real and don't loving matter. And then you've got the legitimate concerns brigade coming out and going "well actually it's very important that we do not disrespect the folkways of the people who only care about flags" and that's all it ever amounts to, just people loving arguing about stupid imaginary poo poo that does not help me in the slightest. If someone asks me how much I love the flag I'm gonna say I don't give a poo poo about it, it's not relevant to my goddamn life in the slightest, I care about real things, not people's made up fantasies. I'm not interested in a political effort that agonizes over how much flag to show in the press release. It's just as stupid as agonizing over how much politicians like ant and dec, or whether they can reference the right TV show or whatever. Who the gently caress cares? And yeah I know a lot of people do apparently care, but if that's the only thing you give a poo poo about in politics I don't think we have any common ground. If you aren't capable of engaging your brain for five minutes to think about "would you like healthcare in the future, would you like roads that work, would you like trains, would you like to not die of starvation due to global crop failures" then what am I supposed to think about you? I do not see a future in pandering to that poo poo, I want politicians that talk about real things and I want them to just be loving honest and serious about it rather than picking words off urbandictionary and then using them constantly for the next goddamn year, or focus grouping some lame rear end phrasing and then repeating it until they look like bad comedians. All of that, all of that circus poo poo about flags and pop culture and whatever, all of it is a game you can't win. Because it's ridiculous. It's supposed to be ridiculous, because it's politics for people who have no actual needs, it's politics for people who don't need changes, who don't think there's anything really wrong, or if they do it's confined to there being too many foreigners and gays on the telly these days because I read it in the paper. It's pretend politics, and I don't see the point in trying to ingratiate yourself with it, because ultimately when it comes time to talk about the real poo poo the people who are only in it for the circus are gonna flip straight away to "why are you so miserable all the time" Politics worth doing is real, raw, and bloody, and I think you should show people enough respect to acknowledge that. You're not going to out-clown johnson, and if you try you're just gonna make the real poo poo seem like a joke. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 17:18 on Feb 27, 2021 |
#
?
Feb 27, 2021 16:56
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 30, 2024 11:02 |
|
|
OK so, OF, you are one of the consistently best posters here and also you can run a successful space 5-year plan in X4 so I don't want to mess with you. That said, identities are really really really important. We know this because in one of the two democracies that actually matter for our lifetimes (the US; the other one is India), the only rallying call that anyone has answered in the past 20 years is "You Are Your Identity" - that is, one aspect of who you are is the One True Thing about you and you have to love all that it loves and shun all that it shuns. I believe that Jeremy Corbyn lost because he failed to build a connection with most of the people who actually voted (relevant: I voted Corbyn and pressed friends and family to). He didn't lose because of him, but because his campaign was pretty hostile to the median actual voter, which is to say the conservative-aligned OAP. That is a group whose membership overwhelmingly feels strongly that (a) they are British; (b) being British is a thing that is important; and (c) being British is better than being $othercountry_citizen. In other words, they had an identity, and Corbyn very very clearly didn't share that identity. I don't think you can look at a group of people and tell them de haut en bas that they are morons for the incredibly normal human thing of being part of a tribe and then be surprised when they don't choose you to lead that tribe.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2021 17:28
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:I want actual material things, I want a roof over my head that is secure, I want food on the table reliably, and I am sick and tired of people when you point out that you don't have those things just going "oh why do you hate your culture, why do you hate your country, you should have pride, you should love this and that" blah blah loving christ just shoot me. You won't get any disagreement on any of this from me or, I would wager, any one else in this thread. But I'm not talking about empty flagshagging platitudes or vacuous nationalism based entirely on worshipping the past and remote concepts. I'm talking about a vision of providing those material things you list and so making the nation (which, like it or loathe it, is here for the foreseeable future as the biggest socio-political unit that we can - hopefully - wield some sort of power over) a better place to live. It's replacing the performative vexilosexuality with tangible good things. You absolutely don't need a nation to do that (and in an ideal world you wouldn't) but it's an ideal and framework that way more people are sympathetic towards than pure class-based internationalism or whatever.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2021 17:30
|
|
|
Nationalism is bad, and no amount of arguments about how necessary it is to get elected is going to make it not bad.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2021 17:37
|
|
|
Beefeater1980 posted:OK so, Embracing 'british and proud' typically has gone hand in hand with nodding when a 60 year old says things 'it's not it like it used to beround here, too many blacks and muslims, send em back I say'. So if you court those voters you lose another part of your voting bloc. If you did try and redefine a sort of left british pride you'd have to work very hard to reassure any skeptics that is wouldn't end up painting a target on their back. JoylessJester fucked around with this message at 17:42 on Feb 27, 2021 |
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2021 17:38
|
|
|
I'm not telling them they're morons for having identities, I'm telling them that there are things that matter outside their identity. You need to eat, refusing to engage with that concept outside your identity is like saying you will only eat gamer fuel protein shake or whatever because you are a gamer so you will only eat gamer food, and yes, if people do that, they are loving morons. Just as people who do not wipe their rear end because it's gay, are morons. I do not think there is political success to be found in people who can not function other than through the lens of an identity, people like that are just broken. That's how you get qanon nutters. If you want to talk about the specific way this impacted corbyn, I would suggest that his problem was not who he was, but that he did not own who he was, certainly not as time went on. He would try to deflect, or try to pretend that he did, in fact, share people's identities when he transparently did not, and all that made him look like was a liar. I don't think he ever outright said "no, and why does it matter?" but earlier on one of the things that set him apart was that he would just directly answer questions rather than trying to weasel into looking like someone who the questioner would like, and coming off like a slimeball instead, like all the other politicians do. He stopped doing that over time for whatever reason, personally I think it was consistent coaching from media professionals, and I think it greatly harmed one of his actual good selling points. Again, if someone tries to prompt me to indicate my affinity or participation in their identity, I'm not going to, because it would be transparently a lie. I do this more or less every time I meet somebody because I don't watch TV or movies or read or listen to music or social media or anything so I do not have any of their pop cultural touchstones in common. And while it does occasionally elicit surprise, it doesn't cause problems, because I can engage with people on real things. I can talk to people at work about work, or people I have met for whatever reason about the immediate situation we are in presently that is the reason for our meeting, and if all else fails I can just show an interest in them, and that does me absolutely fine. I don't need to pretend to be a member of their ingroup and they would think I was a loving freak if I tried. You can just be honest about your outsider status and people will, for the most part, appreciate the honesty more than you trying to ingratiate yourself, because people can tell when you're doing that. (the caveat here that I realise I am glossing over is that there are absolutely some identities that a lot of people will not accept being outside of, there is a reason I am not open about my bisexuality to almost anybody I know in person, and that goes even moreso for other people, the point I am making here is that there are a great many things you can be outside of and that's fine, and that trying to pretend to be just like everybody you meet is going to make you come across like a creep) And if people can't engage with you as you are, if they are so hostile to your lack of membership with their ingroup, I don't think standing in front of a flag and half arsed "what about BRITISH trains with a big flag on them" is going to change their mind. I think if you believe that you're buying into the soppy liberal bullshit designed to pander to them, rather than the real, iron hard core of how their identity works. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 18:03 on Feb 27, 2021 |
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2021 17:44
|
|
|
Beefeater1980 posted:OK so, I think the argument could be made that all this dumb poo poo about how Britain is the best in the world and we've never done anything to be ashamed of and anything that actually is good about Britain is uniquely British is going to have to be dismantled at some point if we want any real progress to be made, and just nodding along with it all for the sake of "well this is what needs to be done right now" gets us where we've got, which is with the Tories absolutely cemented into No. 10. Like I don't fundamentally disagree with you but pushing a different overall vision of Britain with things like "I've got more in common with a Polish plumber than I have with Jacob Rees Mogg" is a very good thing that needs doing IMO. People's opinions - even OAPs - are not immutable.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2021 17:44
|
|
|
JoylessJester posted:Embracing 'british and proud' typically has gone hand in hand with nodding when a 60 year old says things 'it's not it like it used to beround here, too many blacks and muslims, send em back I say'. So if you court those voters you lose another part of your voting bloc. If you did try and redefine a sort of left british pride you'd have to work very hard to reassure any skeptics that is wouldn't end up painting a target on their back. Russian and proud in 1913 might have been a pro-monarchist position. Russian and proud in 1920 wasn't. The Bolsheviks - sensibly - didn't go around telling people that those people were awful for being Russian and my God, have you thought about the massacres in the Caucasus? gently caress Russia forever! Also, please work 110% hard to build Mother Russia into a socialist paradise. At some point you have to accept that who people think they are matters, and basic respect involves treating them like who they think they are, without judging them harshly for that. This is central to left wing philosophy.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2021 17:51
|
|
|
crispix posted:i'm fed up with the union jacks all over food packaging, myself This is an excellent line that I'm definitely stealing.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2021 17:51
|
|
|
Beefeater1980 posted:Russian and proud in 1913 might have been a pro-monarchist position. Russian and proud in 1920 wasn't. The Bolsheviks - sensibly - didn't go around telling people that those people were awful for being Russian and my God, have you thought about the massacres in the Caucasus? gently caress Russia forever! Also, please work 110% hard to build Mother Russia into a socialist paradise. Uh, the Bolsheviks didn't cohere people around Russian national identity but around class identities*. They were, in fact, very big on letting everyone know that Russia was the prison-house of nations lol. *Admittedly, actually, the Bolsheviks did utilise the nationalisms of oppressed nations within the empire but Britain is not and never has been an oppressed nation. They were nothing but scornful of Russian chauvinism, at least for the period of the October Revolution and Civil War. Lightningproof fucked around with this message at 17:56 on Feb 27, 2021 |
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2021 17:53
|
|
|
Beefeater1980 posted:Russian and proud in 1913 might have been a pro-monarchist position. Russian and proud in 1920 wasn't. The Bolsheviks - sensibly - didn't go around telling people that those people were awful for being Russian and my God, have you thought about the massacres in the Caucasus? gently caress Russia forever! Also, please work 110% hard to build Mother Russia into a socialist paradise. I note you didn't engage with the other half of the sum.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2021 17:57
|
|
|
Nationality is an abstract symbol to which different people attach different things which are entirely constructed and not of-the-thing, and ultimately pointless arguing over. Unless you think that there is something inherent about being eg British which is meaningful in its own way. Nations aren't real and flags are simple-rear end geometric designs to put on teatowels.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2021 17:59
|
|
|
there's no shortage of actual-material-concerns politics, albeit it chases the median voter no less fiercely than immaterial-concerns politics - squeezed middle, childcare spending, social care spending. Middle class households worrying about kid and granny respectively. (if one callously calculates that a middle-class benefit matters more than reversing Tory austerity that one has just denounced as killing however many thousands of people, well, that calculation would have been quite at home in Labour not long ago etc. But I have made that point before) the problem here is not really the materiality but the dynamic of chasing the swing voter it's completely fair to have other, specific material concerns of course, but it seems appropriate for these to be the subject of e.g. specific interest-group activism rather than mass party politics, especially as long as FPTP holds sway (not that PR removes the dynamic inasmuch as merely making the horse-trading explicit)
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2021 18:00
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:I'm not telling them they're morons for having identities, I'm telling them that there are things that matter outside their identity. The hot-button issue in politics circa February 2021 is precisely which facet of one's identity is determinative. I agree this is not the only thing that matters, and in fact I find it kind of horrifying. But in terms of motivating people to get up and do something, it's the only game in town right now. The Trump/Gammon vote represents the mainstream in the UK and US, who are majority white and overwhelmingly heterosexual and super-overwhelmingly cis, accurately recognising that a politics based around dismantling their privileges is bad for them. They're right! It is bad for them! When we tell them that we will help everyone who isn't them catch up, bizarrely enough, they react by voting Tory. This is an enduring majority in the UK. So long as politics is based around identity and the left wing attaches itself exclusively to minority identities, the left loses. All politics - not just parliamentary or even democratic politics - is about achieving a majority somehow. You need the fire and the brimstone and the passion somewhere or the whole thing fizzles out in a fit of Keithdom. But the fire and the brimstone needs to be the fringe, not the mainstream.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2021 18:06
|
|
|
Lightningproof posted:
is doing a lot of heavy lifting.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2021 18:07
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:You don't believe that, you have repeatedly said you think it is wrong to not affirm people's nationalism, that not doing that is just smug lefty scolding. So no, you don't think it is a valid way to feel, because if you did you wouldn't be so fixated on ensuring that it doesn't see any political representation. At least some people have the courage to tell me that clearly. I think that entirely rejecting the validity of people's positive feelings towards the place, and yes the country, they live in is smug left scolding. Accepting that people have positive feelings towards those things not because they're knuckle dragging flag fuckers but because it's their home and they like things about, even if it has as a nation done some awful poo poo and continues to do so, isn't 'affirming people's nationalism' in the way that standing in front of a flag jerking off Capt. Tom's corpse is, no matter how much you try to conflate the two. I don't really care how you feel personally, what I do care about is how the left presents itself to wider society. And if we do it your way, we will continue to be a fringe movement and never hold any power/transform society in any major way whatsoever. We'll die with our principles and we can all feel very good about that, but if you don't meet people halfway and say 'yeah, totally, I also really like pubs and Oasis but have you considered that this place could be way more kickin rad than it actually is with x policy and y idea', and instead say 'well actually all those things are the same as everywhere so I dunno why you like em, actually this place is poo poo', they're going to stop listening before you get to 'but we can make it better.' Please stop characterising me as some flag waving nationalist fash because I don't agree with your take on how nationalism might need to be a tool used smartly and sparingly by the left if it wants any success. And to be honest you do just come off as a dour person whose ideas about politics inspire no hope or positive feeling whatsoever. That doesn't mean you're a poo poo or even that you're wrong, but I don't think I'd be hiring you as my campaign manager any time soon. E: also there are leagues of difference between flag loving and liking aspects of Britain - most people I know are a bit turned off by flag loving weirdness but are also very turned off by 'Britain's poo poo and all those things you like about it aren't special why do you even like being here at all?' poo poo. Jakabite fucked around with this message at 18:11 on Feb 27, 2021 |
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2021 18:08
|
|
|
Introducing the needle-threading slogan of the socialist future: There's No Need to Brag About It.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2021 18:10
|
|
|
Beefeater1980 posted:The hot-button issue in politics circa February 2021 is precisely which facet of one's identity is determinative. I agree this is not the only thing that matters, and in fact I find it kind of horrifying. But in terms of motivating people to get up and do something, it's the only game in town right now. And how do you suppose that pandering to this is likely to do anything other than make it stronger? And further, what defines whether this is a "hot button issue" if not the exact media circus I said was inherently opposed to worthwhile political goals earlier? OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 18:19 on Feb 27, 2021 |
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2021 18:11
|
|
|
Beefeater1980 posted:is doing a lot of heavy lifting. It really isn't if you know anything about the period???? The nationalism of a Georgian Menshevik is pretty radically different from the nationalism of Derek, a oval office in a van who thinks Boris is a legend. e; Like, seriously, Lenin's understanding of the nationalism of oppressed peoples is part and parcel of his understanding of capitalism as a world system. The process of constructing a nationalist Bolshevik subject was inextricable from the creation of a proletarian Bolshevik subject, and it drew heavily on traditions of rebellion against empire that contemporary British nationalism fundamentally lacks. Lightningproof fucked around with this message at 18:13 on Feb 27, 2021 |
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2021 18:11
|
|
|
Like, I find the whole thing kind of weird. I live in China. This country is getting richer and more powerful every year and most people can compare today with last year and go 'yeah it's better'. In Britain years, it is 1816 and they just beat Napoleon; in US years it's 1950 and you know you're #1. It's a formally communist country. Are people nationalist? loving yes they're nationalist. Every Chinese person I know here has a world-view that the most evolved form of human being is the modern Han person, that only the Chinese can endure discomfort with dignity (Westerners, Indians, Arabs and Africans are too soft and emotional and we burst into tears if someone says something nasty about us; Japanese and Koreans are sociopaths just waiting for the Chinese to let their guard down) and that the welfare state is coddling the weak. Which is frankly insane! China has a welfare state. It's not a good one, because when it got started China wasn't rich and it hasn't improved enough since then to bring it to the level that we all think is normal in the UK. But it's not terrible either. But there is one difference. The government only accepts one primary identity, which is Chinese. So long as that's your primary identity, you're allowed other identities. But that has to be #1.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2021 18:19
|
|
|
Jakabite posted:I think that entirely rejecting the validity of people's positive feelings towards the place, and yes the country, they live in is smug left scolding. Accepting that people have positive feelings towards those things not because they're knuckle dragging flag fuckers but because it's their home and they like things about, even if it has as a nation done some awful poo poo and continues to do so, isn't 'affirming people's nationalism' in the way that standing in front of a flag jerking off Capt. Tom's corpse is, no matter how much you try to conflate the two. I don't really care how you feel personally, what I do care about is how the left presents itself to wider society. And if we do it your way, we will continue to be a fringe movement and never hold any power/transform society in any major way whatsoever. We'll die with our principles and we can all feel very good about that, but if you don't meet people halfway and say 'yeah, totally, I also really like pubs and Oasis but have you considered that this place could be way more kickin rad than it actually is with x policy and y idea', and instead say 'well actually all those things are the same as everywhere so I dunno why you like em, actually this place is poo poo', they're going to stop listening before you get to 'but we can make it better.' I think that "smartly using nationalism" from the left must necessarily include some dismantling of the current nationalist myths around Britain though. Otherwise you're just nodding along with Tories and Gammon and all that does is increase support for the Tories.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2021 18:24
|
|
|
OwlFancier posted:And how do you suppose that pandering to this is likely to do anything other than make it stronger? OK this is a question with a built in assumption. The assumption is that people will never change their views under any circumstances. I don't think this is true. I think people change their views all the time. However, people very very rarely change their tribal affiliation. If 'treating everyone else like human beings' can be framed as a non-partisan thing, I think left and right wing coded people will all go for it.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2021 18:28
|
|
|
WhatEvil posted:I think that "smartly using nationalism" from the left must necessarily include some dismantling of the current nationalist myths around Britain though. Otherwise you're just nodding along with Tories and Gammon and all that does is increase support for the Tories. Yes
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2021 18:28
|
|
|
e: nm, I'll figure something out
Private Speech fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Feb 27, 2021 |
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2021 18:29
|
|
|
WhatEvil posted:I think that "smartly using nationalism" from the left must necessarily include some dismantling of the current nationalist myths around Britain though. Otherwise you're just nodding along with Tories and Gammon and all that does is increase support for the Tories. Yes, definitely. (He says while nodding along - with the good post, not the Tories and Gammons)
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2021 18:32
|
|
|
Beefeater1980 posted:OK this is a question with a built in assumption. The assumption is that people will never change their views under any circumstances. You can either oppose those views or you can pander to them, pandering to them is not opposing them, it is reinforcing them, opposing them is what you are complaining about being disrespectful to the identities of horrible old gits. So even if you did believe that people were prone to changing their mind, which I do not think they are outside of personal crisis moments and long term changes in their material circumstances, reinforcing those ideas is not going to help facilitate that change of mind, and is, in fact, likely to only legitimize that outlook in people whose minds might be open to change. Like this seems predicated on the idea that nationalism doesn't have any actual ideas in it. That it is just some nebulous "tribalism" that is absent any values but serves as only a kind of colour coding. Which i don't think is correct, people who are nationalists are not empty shells, they have ideas and the ideas are inherent in their nationalism, they're just bad ideas. I don't know where you get the idea that "treating everyone like human beings" is a thing that everyone wants to do? The entire point of nationalism is that your personhood is conditional on your adherence to the nation, both ethnically and civically, which absolutely means flagshagging at a bare minimum. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 18:55 on Feb 27, 2021 |
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2021 18:36
|
|
|
Personally I think Britain's history as one of the most rapacious and psychotic empires to ever blight the Earth makes attempts to commandeer British nationalism but for the left at best doomed and at worst reactionary. Even if your project is re-rooting British nationalism in stuff like Gerrard Winstanley and institutions like the NHS and that time we beheaded the king (this was cool), it's still ultimately a side-show to the actual project of recohering and de-atomising a British working class consciousness that has been decimated by 40 years of neoliberalism. Imo.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2021 18:39
|
|
|
WhatEvil posted:I think that "smartly using nationalism" from the left must necessarily include some dismantling of the current nationalist myths around Britain though. Otherwise you're just nodding along with Tories and Gammon and all that does is increase support for the Tories. Yes absolutely. I don’t know if we’re really talking about the same thing (not me and you necessarily) - I don’t mean flag loving or empire or any of that. Keep talking about how poo poo that is, cos there’s no positive way to spin it and nor should there be. Just don’t throw the baby out with the bath water. There are many things about living here that are good - refocus the national psyche away from flags and empires and onto actual nice things that people consider British like music, pubs, village fetes, and whatever people like. Too often they’re conflated when really they need to be separated by the left. People are going to be way more willing to engage with you about why the empire was actually bad if they don’t think you hate them for their love of Scarborough, Kendal mint cake and Corrie or whatever.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2021 18:57
|
|
|
You can't take advantage of British nationalism when being left wing is seen as being anti British. It's like in Baddiel's book where he asked why the Labour party offered nothing to him for being Jewish and then in the same book said that Left wing Jews are just ashamed of being Jewish. They've painted themselves into a world where you can never reach them.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2021 18:59
|
|
|
It's hard to change peoples minds when the majority of cultural things say that you should not ever consider changing it.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2021 19:04
|
|
|
Convex posted:Would anyone like a free Steam copy of Valkyria Chronicles 4? I have a spare key from Humble Choice but already own it. Apparently it is good although I didn't play it yet. I'll take this if it's still available, you can PM me on discord or here.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2021 19:49
|
|
|
I've lived in I think three countries and Britain is probably the worst one but it's still pretty good really. Things could change though. Also we won the world cup and noone can take that away from us.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2021 21:20
|
|
|
NotJustANumber99 posted:I've lived in I think three countries and Britain is probably the worst one but it's still pretty good really. Things could change though. This reminded me that next year is a World Cup summer and I absolutely can’t loving wait. First proper no lockdown summer plus World Cup? Straight into my veins
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2021 21:24
|
|
|
NotJustANumber99 posted:I've lived in I think three countries and Britain is probably the worst one but it's still pretty good really. Things could change though. I feel like this post exists solely to enrage Scottish posters.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2021 21:27
|
|
|
Jakabite posted:This reminded me that next year is a World Cup summer and I absolutely can’t loving wait. First proper no lockdown summer plus World Cup? Straight into my veins uh... it's in winter for 2022.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2021 21:28
|
|
|
JoylessJester posted:uh... it's in winter for 2022. y'know, because of the hosts being loving qatar of all places.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2021 21:29
|
|
|
forkboy84 posted:I feel like this post exists solely to enrage Scottish posters. I feel like this post exists solely to enrage Welsh posters.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2021 21:30
|
|
|
The world cup is sort of good news because I might get paid to put a beer display together, which I like doing.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2021 21:30
|
|
|
That's the spirit owl
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2021 21:30
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 30, 2024 11:02 |
|
|
Two world wars and two world cups? That's a pretty encapsulating example of nasty British nationalism, but if that's all you have to feel proud of in your life then you're going to look very dimly on anyone who says they are in fact terrible, without first putting forth alternatives to fasten your pride to.
|
|
#
?
Feb 27, 2021 21:37
|
|
