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Falstaff posted:When/why did this happen? I don't know if he's disavowed it, but he stopped offering it for sale because it doesn't hold Mormonism accountable for the genocide against Native America they committed in colonizing Utah - the game basically says the Mountain People are nomadic and were away when the Faithful came and took their land before they returned. It's clear the Mountain People are suffering and the Faithful are racist, but it still presents a history that sanitizes what happened in the real word. He has been working on a Star Wars inspired hack called Before the Rebellion on his Patreon though. It's still under work, but it has some interesting changes and I'm excited to see how it turns out.
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Mar 1, 2021 01:37
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Falstaff posted:When/why did this happen? Chatting about this in Discord I can definitely understand why he looked back at the section on the 'Mountain People', the fictionalised version of Native Americans, and thought it needed to be either revised ASAP or dropped. quote:The land here wasn’t uninhabited when the Faith arrived, not precisely, but its natives are nomads and at the time they were elsewhere. While the pioneers were establishing themselves at Bridal Falls and the lush valleys around it, various accidents of history, the travels of the elk herds, agreements between family groups, and perhaps the will of the King of Life all kept the natives away. By the time their paths brought them back, Bridal Falls City and a dozen other towns already stood. It's a very 'Elbow Room' view of history which is what made it uncomfortable. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfoQBTPY7gk
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Mar 1, 2021 01:37
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Is DITV the game where RAW gay people cause demons or am I mixing it up with something else?
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Mar 1, 2021 02:07
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Hel posted:Is DITV the game where RAW gay people cause demons or am I mixing it up with something else? Yes, and a woman rejecting another woman in a polygamous relationship does that too. At the same time, demons are invisible and incorporeal and might not be real. The game is about being uncomfortable with the religious doctrine you're enforcing, which is why you're also the recognised highest authority in any town you visit and are tempted to change it.
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Mar 1, 2021 02:17
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Hel posted:Is DITV the game where RAW gay people cause demons or am I mixing it up with something else? Bakers's talked about this before, but the idea is that while the GM is supposed to pretend like the rules of the Faith are true for the purposes of Town Creation, it doesn't hold in play. That's why the PCs can come into town, deal with the demons, and then say "Actually we believe these two woman should be married and tough poo poo if you don't like it" and it doesn't mean demons will continue to plague the town because of The Gays. It's not clear in the book though, and he's admitted that as well.
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Mar 1, 2021 02:28
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Hel posted:Is DITV the game where RAW gay people cause demons or am I mixing it up with something else? "The presence of sin opens a community to attacks from Demons." DITV's Sins are "violence, sex, deceit, disunity, blasphemy, apostasy, worldliness [catch-all of "breaking the Faith's rules], and faithlessness". Sex includes any sex outside marriage, unless "your marriage is ordained in Heaven, you're prevented from wedding by inescapable circumstances, and you wed as soon as you are able." That does include homosexuality, but also includes married members, and notably doesn't explicitly include a married couple without one party fully consenting. (One implicit spot, depending on interpretation.) Polygamy is also perfectly fine in the King of Life's eyes, but wanting it is a sin. Sexuality is a mess of hangups that all invite "demonic attacks" outside of the Faith's tenets. That said, important to note - demons aren't necessarily real in DitV either. They're representations of the conflict that "sin" in a deeply religious community drives between its members. A Steward exploiting his position to squeeze a bit more personal gain out of his community through spiritual authority doesn't need demons to cause a conflict that'll tear a branch apart eventually. The book acknowledged that it doesn't really matter if the demons are real, because the effects that result are what matter. (The guidelines are written based on determining real demons' actions, though.) The book's examples of "demonic attacks" are "the church meeting house burned down, making the victim blame a convert out of bigotry", "the farmers' tools are breaking while they're being fleeced by a shopkeeper", and "a woman in the town is barren, driving internal conflict blamed on infidelity". None of those require a supernatural cause. tldr: yes, "gay sex causes demonic attacks" is a correct interpretation of the Faith's beliefs, but it's oversimplifying what Baker portrayed. I can go look for my DitV binders and see if I can find that one "branch story" I really wanted to see play out at some point. (Preview pseudo-edit: other people have covered this as well and Heliotrope has pointed out the important part that "the Dogs are right when interpreting the Faith" and part of that is that they can decide the King of Life ordained these two to be married, sex be damned.) e: here we go, from the Forge archives. No demons, no supernatural whatsoever - just the Dogs riding in on horseback to help a town split down the middle by an arranged marriage falling apart. One of those "this is the kind of scenario the game was written for" sorts of things. SkyeAuroline fucked around with this message at 02:37 on Mar 1, 2021 |
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Mar 1, 2021 02:31
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Thanks for the clarification, there was a reason I out RAW there just because I was pretty sure it wasn't the intended read but just the way multiple parts of the game interacted.
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Mar 1, 2021 02:36
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SkyeAuroline posted:That said, important to note - demons aren't necessarily real in DitV either. They're representations of the conflict that "sin" in a deeply religious community drives between its members. A Steward exploiting his position to squeeze a bit more personal gain out of his community through spiritual authority doesn't need demons to cause a conflict that'll tear a branch apart eventually. The book acknowledged that it doesn't really matter if the demons are real, because the effects that result are what matter. (The guidelines are written based on determining real demons' actions, though.) The book's examples of "demonic attacks" are "the church meeting house burned down, making the victim blame a convert out of bigotry", "the farmers' tools are breaking while they're being fleeced by a shopkeeper", and "a woman in the town is barren, driving internal conflict blamed on infidelity". None of those require a supernatural cause. There was a thread on the Forge where Baker talked about what this stuff meant without the supernatural aspects and it was basically: Sin is going against the rules of the conservative religion, demonic attacks are bad luck that combined with someone breaking the rules makes the situation a lot worse, and a sorcerer is someone who uses this terrible situation to gain power and possessed people are their henchmen or toadies.
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Mar 1, 2021 02:39
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Heliotrope posted:There was a thread on the Forge where Baker talked about what this stuff meant without the supernatural aspects and it was basically: Sin is going against the rules of the conservative religion, demonic attacks are bad luck that combined with someone breaking the rules makes the situation a lot worse, and a sorcerer is someone who uses this terrible situation to gain power and possessed people are their henchmen or toadies. Pretty much how I had intended to run it back when I was still planning on doing so. Haven't thought about it in a while, my usual group isn't very amenable to these sorts of stories and I'm bad at writing towns (and at GMing, but that's not a game issue).
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Mar 1, 2021 02:42
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bewilderment posted:It's a very 'Elbow Room' view of history which is what made it uncomfortable. Holy gently caress.
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Mar 1, 2021 02:44
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bewilderment posted:
I'm honestly kind of impressed with how white-washed that is. Like in the way you can sometimes feel a little bit proud of a massively stinky fart when you're by yourself. It's not a good thing, but god drat if you didn't do it really hard. Also I never cared about Luke Crane's ~*~*~*~*~wizard~*~*~*~*~ bullshit and like a lot of his games, but he can get hosed from now on as far as I'm concerned. I've defended his writing and game design but this is beyond the pale.
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Mar 1, 2021 03:26
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bewilderment posted:Chatting about this in Discord I can definitely understand why he looked back at the section on the 'Mountain People', the fictionalised version of Native Americans, and thought it needed to be either revised ASAP or dropped. something something lebensraum
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Mar 1, 2021 03:38
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Hel posted:Thanks for the clarification, there was a reason I out RAW there just because I was pretty sure it wasn't the intended read but just the way multiple parts of the game interacted. Like 3:16 Carnage Among the Stars, the point of campaign play in DitV is for the characters, or at least the players to consider how thoroughly hosed up their actions are and how the setting enforces those actions. I think Vincent was dissatisfied with the RAW not making that particularly obvious. Cool Empire.jpg, if you will.
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Mar 1, 2021 04:39
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https://twitter.com/IKantKoan/status/1366047115877773314
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Mar 1, 2021 05:48
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Another TG-related thing worth noting from that is that popular board game designer Jordan Draper is also a psychopathic narcissist who steals other people's work. (At least, I didn't know that until now.)
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Mar 1, 2021 10:46
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This was shared in CSPAM, and I read the entire Twitter thread, so now I'm sharing it here so everyone else can feel my pain. https://twitter.com/LandNop/status/1366388194607050754
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Mar 1, 2021 23:18
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Oh, I guess he has a new Twitter now. Also wow that's some facile analysis in several cases.
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Mar 1, 2021 23:25
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Falstaff posted:This was shared in CSPAM, and I read the entire Twitter thread, so now I'm sharing it here so everyone else can feel my pain. We could finally stop having to hear about Chad Walker if people would just not post his takes. Imagine how much nicer things could be. Mors Rattus posted:Oh, I guess he has a new Twitter now.
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Mar 1, 2021 23:26
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SkyeAuroline posted:We could finally stop having to hear about Chad Walker if people would just not post his takes.  Welp, between this and the Koebel thing, I don't think I'm going to buy any more of Crane's work absent a really phenomenal, utterly convincing apology (which I doubt he's capable of, even if he were inclined.) Incredibly disappointing all around, since I really enjoy his approach to game design.
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Mar 1, 2021 23:42
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Falstaff posted:
I mean, I'd love to read Crane's apology because it'll probably be written in character as a wizard.
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Mar 1, 2021 23:44
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Kurieg posted:I mean, I'd love to read Crane's apology because it'll probably be written in character as a wizard. Extremely this. I enjoyed the Torchbearer and Burning Wheel I played, but cutting Luke Crane out of my life won't be a problem at all.
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Mar 2, 2021 00:19
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That twitter thread sucks, it's just navel-gazing pontificating nonsense of "wow, I guess everything is a land of contrasts and doesn't really map perfectly to my Hogwarts Houses of revolutionary pseudo-allies" that just actively reminds me that his stupid game needed a total mechanical overhaul because it was too complex and didn't work. I dunno why this motherfucker lives so rent free in my head but I'd like him to stop.
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Mar 2, 2021 00:30
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Here is Sage Latorra doing his usual award-winning impersonation of a bowl of room-temperature butterscotch pudding: https://twitter.com/olde_fortran/status/1366430259474694145
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Mar 2, 2021 05:30
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Sage is at least the good version of the conflict-averse guy since it’s easy for that personality to just turn into “this isn’t my problem — can’t you all just get along?” guy.
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Mar 2, 2021 05:50
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Yeah I'll say that Sage's thread is at least pretty honestly self-reflective that his issue is/was, basically, "I'm really conflict-averse and didn't want to say anything, and then because of that the thing I quietly hoped wouldn't happen happened anyway," like he acknowledges that's what happened rather than "I had no way of knowing this would occur." And, again, the onus for this whole situation really begins and ends with Crane in the first place. Compared to how I've seen some people spin poo poo (in general, not about this particular incident) this honestly isn't half bad imo.
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Mar 2, 2021 08:44
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Kurieg posted:I mean, I'd love to read Crane's apology because it'll probably be written in character as a wizard. 
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Mar 2, 2021 09:25
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Mar 2, 2021 11:42
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Kai Tave posted:Yeah I'll say that Sage's thread is at least pretty honestly self-reflective that his issue is/was, basically, "I'm really conflict-averse and didn't want to say anything, and then because of that the thing I quietly hoped wouldn't happen happened anyway," like he acknowledges that's what happened rather than "I had no way of knowing this would occur." And, again, the onus for this whole situation really begins and ends with Crane in the first place. Compared to how I've seen some people spin poo poo (in general, not about this particular incident) this honestly isn't half bad imo. Which could mean: - Adam genuinely sent in a contribution after the preview and Luke thought "eh, I'll throw it in, no biggie". This is the best possible interpretation for Luke and it still has him being utterly thoughtless towards the contributors and not seeing Adam's presence as any sort of problem. - Adam had a contribution sent in but Luke kept it back from the preview. - Luke told Adam not to send in his contribution until the preview had gone out, so he could weaselly claim that it was a late submission should people call him on it. Literally none of these interpretations of the events come out well for Luke.
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Mar 2, 2021 12:42
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Mar 2, 2021 15:46
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Kinda glad Luke Crane told me personally to boycott him.
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Mar 2, 2021 18:33
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lmao go gently caress yourself, Luke. Dawgstar posted:Was he trying to make a 'I'm bigger than the game industry' flex? My guess is it's whichever games they made that Luke Crane liked the most, since this all seems to be an elaborate joke only he'd find funny.
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Mar 2, 2021 18:34
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this is excellent work
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Mar 2, 2021 19:50
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Warthur posted:If anything, it makes Luke look even worse, because if Sage is correct a preview version of the entire product got sent out to contributors without Adam's contribution, and then Adam's contribution somehow made its way in between that and the Kickstarter launching. I'm honestly starting to wonder if this isn't some kind of hosed up meta joke that only Luke Crane finds funny. Like a week from now he's going to try to pull a "Ho ho, you've all fallen right into my master plan: I was only pretending to be an rear end in a top hat when I burned every bridge in the community! Point: Luke Crane, it seems  "
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Mar 2, 2021 20:05
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I've seen some people saying they think hes making some kind of Point about cancel culture. Which also seems dumb as hell
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Mar 2, 2021 20:48
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"I cast the spell Deflecto Blamus, and then magnanimously forgive you for being reactionary and wrong."
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Mar 2, 2021 20:57
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Pocky In My Pocket posted:I've seen some people saying they think hes making some kind of Point about cancel culture. Which also seems dumb as hell And burning your reputation with a dozen high-profile creators is a hell of a way to do it.
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Mar 2, 2021 21:04
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Pocky In My Pocket posted:I've seen some people saying they think hes making some kind of Point about cancel culture. Which also seems dumb as hell Honestly at that point I feel like even lovely ol' Koebel is being used here. Like he maybe thought "Oh hey, an attempt to prove myself again, thanks to my trusty old pal Luke Crane" only to be used as a political football. Like, gently caress him, obviously, but this also just makes Luke Crane worse.
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Mar 2, 2021 22:03
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theironjef posted:Honestly at that point I feel like even lovely ol' Koebel is being used here. Like he maybe thought "Oh hey, an attempt to prove myself again, thanks to my trusty old pal Luke Crane" only to be used as a political football. Like, gently caress him, obviously, but this also just makes Luke Crane worse. My favorite part so far, and by favorite I mean it gave me a headache, was learning that Koebel dropped out of the project and in response it was shut down, but the folks dropping because he was present were just cut from the name list.
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Mar 2, 2021 22:45
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Mors Rattus posted:Oh, I guess he has a new Twitter now. That's pretty much that guy's gig, yes.
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Mar 3, 2021 03:56
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Rob Donoghue posted this the other day, which is an interesting analysis of the Perfect RPG ks from a different angle: the disparity of "known" indie RPG folks and the unknowns just trying get their foot in the metaphorical door. https://twitter.com/rdonoghue/status/1365868300803182593
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Mar 3, 2021 21:15
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