(Thread IKs:
fart simpson)
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pretty sure I saw a gray zone article about how all the advisory councils twitter uses to define policy are controlled by the state dept
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Feb 28, 2021 23:12
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Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3 posted:oh and uh china's economy is going to be bigger than ours, so where do you think the world's top talent will want to go when that happens? lol
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Feb 28, 2021 23:18
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Centrist Committee posted:pretty sure I saw a gray zone article about how all the advisory councils twitter uses to define policy are controlled by the state dept the bbc does not give in to government pressure
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Mar 1, 2021 00:03
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Top City Homo posted:the bbc does not give in to government pressure lol
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Mar 1, 2021 00:07
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China has a zillion problems, but the key difference between it and the United States is that it has a political establishment committed to solving them - or at least loving trying. Chinese cities in 10-15 years will probably be healthier than their American counterparts, which will be stuffed with ICE engines and lovely loving Teslas, and the public transportation infrastructure will be as bad as it is or worse. US universities (and cultural influence) will probably outlast other sources of power, like in the UK, but will face increasingly serious competition for foreign talent from China's top universities. US economic power on the whole rests on the dominance of the dollar, collecting imperial rent, and America being traditionally the safest place to park your money. All of that will be hard to sustain once the Chinese economy gets to Taiwan/South Korea GDP per capita in like 2035.
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Mar 1, 2021 00:46
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How much of this is because of the Keynesian honeymoon and how much is because of a genuine commitment to socialism? Ive been watching alot of lectures by Leo Panitch lately and he mentions that Social Democrats in the west thought that they had successfully restrained capital in the postwar period. Edit: There's got to be a point where you can't satisfy capital and workers at the same time.
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Mar 1, 2021 02:26
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ToxicAcne posted:Edit: There's got to be a point where you can't satisfy capital and workers at the same time. It was around Nixon and Carters Presidencies in the US. Nixon used a bunch of weird gimmicks like fixing the price of Big Macs to keep the wheels on just a little bit longer and Carter unchained capital. Who the hell knows what China will do if it faces the same dilemma.
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Mar 1, 2021 02:41
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ToxicAcne posted:How much of this is because of the Keynesian honeymoon and how much is because of a genuine commitment to socialism? Ive been watching alot of lectures by Leo Panitch lately and he mentions that Social Democrats in the west thought that they had successfully restrained capital in the postwar period. I don’t think you can seriously answer this question without examining the dialectic between China and the United States. someone who is better at Marxism would have to do that tho I’m just a simple shitposter
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Mar 1, 2021 02:42
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with stuff like 996, involution, and real estate bubbles in major Chinese cities, isn't the average PRC urban worker already as alienated (in the marxist sense) as an American one? i don't know where socialism comes in
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Mar 1, 2021 02:44
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I think it matters that the people in power in the post-Bretton-Woods West were mostly not socialists, committed or otherwise. I'm sure someone is going to pipe up to argue that neither is the CPC, because state capitalism amirite, but I imagine there's still a significant gulf between that, and American Presidents from Truman through to Nixon.
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Mar 1, 2021 02:46
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ToxicAcne posted:How much of this is because of the Keynesian honeymoon and how much is because of a genuine commitment to socialism? Ive been watching alot of lectures by Leo Panitch lately and he mentions that Social Democrats in the west thought that they had successfully restrained capital in the postwar period. it’s impossible to know right now and probably always will be. they’re playing a dangerous game by empowering and enriching capital and even if they’re doing it with pure socialist intentions it could very easily get out of hand
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Mar 1, 2021 02:46
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Workers in the west during the 60s were alienated as well, while also seeing an increase in living standards. That was what the New Left was about and why existentialism became so huge during that period. I think people are being a little bit triumphalist about China here. I wouldn't be surprised if something big started to shake up China. There are already stories of young Marxists in China becoming dissatisfied with the state of things. Edit: I wonder if the West knows this as well and is stirring the pot in regards to Hong Kong and Xinjiang. ToxicAcne has issued a correction as of 02:53 on Mar 1, 2021 |
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Mar 1, 2021 02:50
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i'm surprised public housing isn't on the party's radar given the historical examples of Singapore versus Hong Kong. property prices in major cities are ridiculous
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Mar 1, 2021 02:52
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i doubt there will be any big upset in china. the system is repressive in many ways but they are delivering the goods. as long as standards of living continue improve every year they can get away with a a lot living standards in the west are declining, people are less interested in tolerating bullshit
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Mar 1, 2021 02:55
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Rutibex posted:i doubt there will be any big upset in china. the system is repressive in many ways but they are delivering the goods. their point is that for a lot of people they aren’t, though
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Mar 1, 2021 02:56
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You'll know if the chinese state has lost its grip on capital when rich people stop disappearing into re-education camps.
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Mar 1, 2021 02:57
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That's the fascinating contradiction about Capitalism. It runs into existential crises when it gives the workers gains and when it grinds them into the dirt.
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Mar 1, 2021 02:57
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Cao Ni Ma posted:You'll know if the chinese state has lost its grip on capital when rich people stop disappearing into re-education camps. lol this is such a pointless metric
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Mar 1, 2021 02:58
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shrike82 posted:with stuff like 996, involution, and real estate bubbles in major Chinese cities, isn't the average PRC urban worker already as alienated (in the marxist sense) as an American one? https://www.sixthtone.com/news/1006523/fed-up-with-capitalism%2C-young-chinese-brush-up-on-das-kapital i mean it may not stick, and when growth slows chinese leadership may go further right but they seem to have taken a look at the decay and rot in the west, decided they don't want that, and are pushing for more state intervention/control in the economy and the improvement of wages and living standards to make china the world's biggest consumer market. mila kunis has issued a correction as of 03:01 on Mar 1, 2021 |
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Mar 1, 2021 02:58
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mila kunis posted:https://www.sixthtone.com/news/1006523/fed-up-with-capitalism%2C-young-chinese-brush-up-on-das-kapital can't wait for Chinese Chapo quote:i mean it may not stick, and when growth slows chinese leadership may go further right but they seem to have taken a look at the decay and rot in the west, decided they don't want that, and are pushing for more state intervention/control in the economy and the improvement of wages and living standards to make china the world's biggest consumer market. shrike82 has issued a correction as of 03:04 on Mar 1, 2021 |
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Mar 1, 2021 03:00
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I would say the thing that would constrain China is that in a raw geopolitical sense, I don’t think it could dominate the world in the same way as the US after the Second World War. China is going to face serious competition, more so than the Soviets, and I agree to extent that demographics will slow their growth over time. I would say the only real sensible path for them is at least a more state guided form of Keynesianism simply because that the only way to guide the ship. Does this mean the PRC is truly a Marxist state, eh maybe not but I think it will have to go in a different trajectory to be successful. Btw the US badly needs Keynesianism as well but it is much more fundamentally an issue of inertia at this point. —— The new left in many ways was the result of Cold War politics that don’t exist in the same way in present-day China. It doesn’t mean there isn’t alienation but rather it is a different ballgame. It also begs the question if Chinese young people would actually seek to overthrow the system rather than simply reform it. As long as living standards are generally improving it is hard to see the system collapsing. —— As far as public housing it exists in China, but a big part of their strategy has been simply using raw infrastructure construction to swamp the market. Since 2017, Shanghai’s housing prices have stagnated. Ardennes has issued a correction as of 03:08 on Mar 1, 2021 |
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Mar 1, 2021 03:01
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ToxicAcne posted:How much of this is because of the Keynesian honeymoon and how much is because of a genuine commitment to socialism? Ive been watching alot of lectures by Leo Panitch lately and he mentions that Social Democrats in the west thought that they had successfully restrained capital in the postwar period. it's absolutely a keynesian honeymoon right now in china. but when the contradictions become too much, they have: foundational principles of their state, a massive warning in whats happening in the west to not turn to neoliberalism, and a deathgrip on political power which capital is completely shut out of. i don't think they'll end up like the west did when the rate of return declines
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Mar 1, 2021 03:04
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I definitely would like to learn more about the Chinese Left though. From what I hear there is a "New Left" there as well (I'm guessing the name is the only similarity).
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Mar 1, 2021 03:05
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people seem to have forgotten the heyday of the Japanese administrative state (MITI) and how fast their grip fell apart once the economy matured
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Mar 1, 2021 03:08
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shrike82 posted:can't wait for Chinese Chapo increasing public control of the economy, which already has a massive SOE component: https://www.economist.com/briefing/2020/08/15/xi-jinping-is-trying-to-remake-the-chinese-economy and party, rather than capitalist, control of the state plus a continued commitment to improving wages and living standards: https://news.cgtn.com/news/2020-09-30/Rural-China-sees-robust-income-and-consumption-growth-UcOtY6qh2M/index.html quote:Policies to boost national and rural consumption 996 and all that poo poo sucks rear end of course, but its better to get at labor reform from a position of public control
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Mar 1, 2021 03:13
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shrike82 posted:people seem to have forgotten the heyday of the Japanese administrative state (MITI) and how fast their grip fell apart once the economy matured by 'matured' you mean financialized and neoliberalized, and the BoJ essentially becoming a private banker's plaything to keep up asset prices with zero public control. absolutely zero sign of that happening in china
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Mar 1, 2021 03:14
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shrike82 posted:people seem to have forgotten the heyday of the Japanese administrative state (MITI) and how fast their grip fell apart once the economy matured French Dirigisme as well.
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Mar 1, 2021 03:15
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Japan could have very clearly have gone a different route than it did though. Neither the Plaza Accords or the Boj’s aggressive policy needed to happen, moreover the LDP didn’t need to spend nearly 3 decades sitting on their hands either. The situation in Japan was more than simply demographics or even the limits of Keynesianism but very much its own particular set of poor choices. It doesn’t mean the Chinese economy will endless soar into the clouds but they would have to make mistakes of a similar caliber to get the same results.
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Mar 1, 2021 03:23
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mila kunis posted:by 'matured' you mean financialized and neoliberalized, and the BoJ essentially becoming a private banker's plaything to keep up asset prices with zero public control. absolutely zero sign of that happening in china lol, look at private property prices in chinese cities, not to mention the stock markets i don't get people that make bald-faced lies like that and think people will accept it
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Mar 1, 2021 03:24
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if your analysis is that capital has no political power in China you're grossly oversimplifying or just misinformed you don't have accumulation by dispossession, and maybe you won't see that. you don't have a state that serves wealthy individuals generally. but the state is not going to stop capital accumulation and hand over power to the working class of china lol
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Mar 1, 2021 03:24
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shrike82 posted:lol, look at private property prices in chinese cities, not to mention the stock markets bald faced lie that the chinese aren't going to let their central bank become a privatized plaything? wut?
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Mar 1, 2021 03:26
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please tell us more about the BOJ being privatized
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Mar 1, 2021 03:27
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Antonymous posted:if your analysis is that capital has no political power in China you're grossly oversimplifying or just misinformed I would say the PRC has shown it isn’t interested in accumulation when it starts getting in the way of the state itself. It perhaps isn’t socialism but neither is it traditional neoliberalism as well (or arguably traditional Keynesianism). The BOJ wasn’t truly privatized but arguably it was incestuous. Ardennes has issued a correction as of 03:30 on Mar 1, 2021 |
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Mar 1, 2021 03:28
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shrike82 posted:please tell us more about the BOJ being privatized it's extemely independent of government control and public scrutiny and the people in charge keep going through revolving doors with the private sector? you're not as smart as you think you're being here
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Mar 1, 2021 03:29
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if you're making the argument that the BOJ and the broader government has become beholden to capital in needing to keep asset prices inflated - i don't see how China isn't heading down the same path. there's a whole lot of people's money invested in assets like real estate and equity markets, and the government's been proactive in keeping them inflated you guys seem to be making some weird argument that the Chinese will correct this turn but that's just speculation
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Mar 1, 2021 03:34
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shrike82 posted:if you're making the argument that the BOJ and the broader government has become beholden to capital in needing to keep asset prices inflated - i don't see how China isn't heading down the same path. there's a whole lot of people's money invested in assets like real estate and equity markets, and the government's been proactive in keeping them inflated The BOJ was doing more than supporting asset prices but fueling such a massive property bubble the country couldn’t recover. Housing prices in first tier cities are high but not lords of yen type of mania.
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Mar 1, 2021 03:39
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Ardennes posted:The BOJ was doing more than supporting asset prices but fueling such a massive property bubble the country couldn’t recover. Housing prices in first tier cities are high but not lords of yen type of mania. lol have you looked at Chinese property prices recently especially when you look at price-to-income ratios?
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Mar 1, 2021 03:42
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shrike82 posted:lol have you looked at Chinese property prices recently especially when you look at price-to-income ratios? In 1990, a square meter of space on Ginza was worth a quarter of a million dollars.
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Mar 1, 2021 03:46
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ok? and have you seen the chinese real estate and equity markets?
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Mar 1, 2021 03:47
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shrike82 posted:ok? and have you seen the chinese real estate and equity markets? According to numbeo, a one bedroom apartment outside the city center of Shanghai is around 4K rmb while the average salary is 10k. Is that affordable? No, but nothing comparable to bubble Japan. Also, the Shanghai exchange is a bit muted compared to most global markets especially American ones. Have you seen the Nasdaq with your own eyes? Ardennes has issued a correction as of 04:37 on Mar 1, 2021 |
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Mar 1, 2021 03:50
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