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Big Mean Jerk posted:Why can’t it just be what it is, a bittersweet line from one comic book character trying to comfort another? People prove themselves day in day out far too dull to make the mental gymnastic leap of going 'one layer out'. Like here, as you say, that might be the perfect line for Vision to Deliver to Wanda. Not Paul Bettany to us the viewer. "MY DREAM WAS REALLY INTERESTING WHERE..." (and then a bunch of boring poo poo). No, sunshine, you just dreamed that a bunch of boring poo poo was interesting. "THIS STORY IS RACIST!" No, the character 'in' the story is racist. Look how the character is treated. etc etc etc.
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Mar 1, 2021 16:19
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I'm reasonably sure that the MCU time travel as described in Endgame follows the decades old Gruenwald time travel rules seen here: https://marvelcontinuum.wordpress.com/time-travel/ Which is how it works in the comics multiverse. It has to, I think, if we'd like to allow 616 and the MCU to be part of the same multiverse.
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Mar 1, 2021 16:20
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The tl;dr version of time travel is: Terminator/Back to the Future: Time Paradoxes can exist. Endgame: Time Paradoxes can't exist.
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Mar 1, 2021 16:25
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mind the walrus posted:Yeah the Thanos thing is a bit of a hole, I can see that, but otherwise the film plays by its own logic very well, I feel. There's really no other spot where I think "the only way to explain this is via a divergent timeline." Peggy and Steve could have kept their stuff on the downlow after the 70s (presumably where he went back to)... or Peggy spent ~40 years knowing that SHIELD was really Hydra, but had to let it happen and pretend she didn't know for the rest of her life. Either way, awkward.
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Mar 1, 2021 16:29
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:The tl;dr version of time travel is: But Tony said Ant Man turning into a baby was a paradox!
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Mar 1, 2021 16:44
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Time is a flat circle, dummies. It's a wheel. You must ascend yourself to remove yourself from the disc.
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Mar 1, 2021 16:57
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pik_d posted:At 1 minute 30 seconds it says "Salem, Massachusetts 1693" Salem, Massachusetts 1693 There were witches in the forest, Tell me where were thee? You were sittin' home watchin' your TV While I was participating in some witchery First they accused me of magic I can't afford Dark arts and evil incantations, they said "no more" With blue magic flashin', they aimed and fired Then I sucked them witches dry, their plan backfired Next shot that hit, my mother said to stop It only took one to trick make that wiccan drop Finally I snatched that brooch, takeaway Where do you think I got this magic that you're seeing today?
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Mar 1, 2021 16:57
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Robot Hobo posted:Which would suggest that Steve either had to spend ~40 years with Peggy without ever telling her that SHIELD, her life's work, had been secretly a Hydra front for most of that time...
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Mar 1, 2021 17:01
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Robot Hobo posted:Which would suggest that Steve either had to spend ~40 years with Peggy without ever telling her that SHIELD, her life's work, had been secretly a Hydra front for most of that time... Without digging into the gritty details of TIME LAW, its entirely possible to reconcile that whole thing as a Predestination Paradox. Steve was actually there living his life with Peggy in the past the whole time, and even with his knowledge of the future and SHIELD being co-opted by Hydra everything they might have done to stop them failed because we already saw that it didn't succeed. The only hole in the theory would be that Peggy acted like Steve had been gone that whole time even after he came back and found her old, and that can be covered by the dementia.
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Mar 1, 2021 17:07
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Sanguinia posted:Without digging into the gritty details of TIME LAW, its entirely possible to reconcile that whole thing as a Predestination Paradox. Steve was actually there living his life with Peggy in the past the whole time, and even with his knowledge of the future and SHIELD being co-opted by Hydra everything they might have done to stop them failed because we already saw that it didn't succeed.
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Mar 1, 2021 17:09
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Robot Hobo posted:Which would suggest that Steve either had to spend ~40 years with Peggy without ever telling her that SHIELD, her life's work, had been secretly a Hydra front for most of that time... Yeah, this is the big one for me. With all we know about Steve, he's not going to sit idly by letting atrocities happen so he can enjoy a 40 year vacation. For what it's worth the directors of Endgame both say changing the past creates branching timelines, and Cap & Peggy had a bunch of Hydra-busting adventures before he grew old and hopped back: https://collider.com/avengers-endgame-cap-timeline-explained-russo-brothers-answer/ My take was that Ancient One was insisting the Stones be returned to where they came from because they will get used to help people in those new branches (Strange will eventually need the Time Stone to stop Dormammu, for example), not because they needed to magic them away.
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Mar 1, 2021 17:10
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mind the walrus posted:Also this. It's a good backdoor for a Cap miniseries or something if/when Chris Evans wants to do another run. Bring in the Serpent Society or something charmingly retro, have Steve doing 80s stuff. Which reminds me that I really need to get around to watching Agent Carter.
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Mar 1, 2021 17:10
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But time is considered completely linearly everywhere else in the film, right until the end where they introduce that bootstrap/predestination thing with Cap always having been Peggy's wife (Prisoner of Azkaban rules). The only way to square that with the idea that 'you can't change the past' is if there was some Prime universe in which Cap goes missing, but he went back in time to marry Peggy which is now timeline B, and we haven't been following the Prime universe at all - we've been following a divergent timeline where Cap arrived in the 50's and married Peggy.
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Mar 1, 2021 17:15
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Ravel posted:But time is considered completely linearly everywhere else in the film, right until the end where they introduce that bootstrap/predestination thing with Cap always having been Peggy's wife (Prisoner of Azkaban rules). The only way to square that with the idea that 'you can't change the past' is if there was some Prime universe in which Cap goes missing, but he went back in time to marry Peggy which is now timeline B, and we haven't been following the Prime universe at all - we've been following a divergent timeline where Cap arrived in the 50's and married Peggy. Maybe that'll be the twist in Multiverse of Madness: Captain America accidentally splintered the MCU off into a new timeline while returning the stones, and we've not been in the "original," MCU since the moment Cap stepped into the time machine. Or maybe it'll just come out that even the smartest people in the Universe don't know how Time Travel really works and there were holes in their explanation and its actually all Wibbly Wobbly Timey Wimey rules
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Mar 1, 2021 17:18
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Hobo Clown posted:For what it's worth the directors of Endgame both say changing the past creates branching timelines, and Cap & Peggy had a bunch of Hydra-busting adventures before he grew old and hopped back: So Captain America built a second time machine in an alternate timeline and then old Steve Rogers time traveled back to the MCU main universe in a different area, then drove to Tony's house and hid in some bushes for a couple of hours until his young self left and then sat on a bench? 
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Mar 1, 2021 17:33
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Firebert posted:So Captain America built a second time machine in an alternate timeline and then old Steve Rogers time traveled back to the MCU main universe in a different area, then drove to Tony's house and hid in some bushes for a couple of hours until his young self left and then sat on a bench? He was supposed to come back originally, so he would have still had one charge left to return. The best thing with any time-travel fiction is to not think about it too much.
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Mar 1, 2021 17:37
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Firebert posted:So Captain America built a second time machine in an alternate timeline and then old Steve Rogers time traveled back to the MCU main universe in a different area, then drove to Tony's house and hid in some bushes for a couple of hours until his young self left and then sat on a bench? Why would he need a second time machine? He's wearing one. The whole idea was he was going to need to return to where he originally left from while being somewhere in the past. He just waited a while before that last jump, he could've arrived when everyone else was at Tony's funeral. It's clunky sure but it's easier to get around than Thanos entering a time portal in 2014 and dying, and then also being around to hunt infinity stones for the next few years. Time is either a single loop or it isn't.
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Mar 1, 2021 17:44
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Sanguinia posted:Or maybe it'll just come out that even the smartest people in the Universe don't know how Time Travel really works and there were holes in their explanation and its actually all Wibbly Wobbly Timey Wimey rules
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Mar 1, 2021 17:47
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We did see that the time machines were capable of point to point jumps when Cap and Tony went from Past New York to Past-er New Jersey, so its not unreasonable that he jumped back just... not on the pad.
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Mar 1, 2021 17:49
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Ravel posted:But time is considered completely linearly everywhere else in the film, right until the end where they introduce that bootstrap/predestination thing with Cap always having been Peggy's wife (Prisoner of Azkaban rules). The only way to square that with the idea that 'you can't change the past' is if there was some Prime universe in which Cap goes missing, but he went back in time to marry Peggy which is now timeline B, and we haven't been following the Prime universe at all - we've been following a divergent timeline where Cap arrived in the 50's and married Peggy. Cap basically exists in two places at once for a long period of time, but he understands the weirdness this creates and lives life anonymously with Peggy. It's a linear life, just not in time (which he can do because he lives longer than normal people). Cap lives life up to getting frozen in ice > gets unfrozen and all of the MCU events up until Endgame happen > goes back in time to live a quiet life with Peggy eventually growing into old man cap at the end of Endgame.
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Mar 1, 2021 17:49
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Cat Army
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Isn't the idea that the quantum realm exists outside of time and space and all these different possible times are essentially doors Steve could walk through? If that's the case, Old Man Steve would just have to go back in and come out the door he first entered, which he probably marked off somehow anyway.
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Mar 1, 2021 17:53
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Merch is appearing.
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Mar 1, 2021 18:12
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Is that an arc reactor in his head?
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Mar 1, 2021 18:27
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Robot Hobo posted:Which would suggest that Steve either had to spend ~40 years with Peggy without ever telling her that SHIELD, her life's work, had been secretly a Hydra front for most of that time... It worked better in the comics where it was a double blind and Hydra's takeover was planned by Fury to get Strucker's keys to a powerful artifact given to the 20th century's spy agencies by a time traveling Leonardo Da'Vinci.
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Mar 1, 2021 18:31
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The_Doctor posted:Merch is appearing. I want Cataract/Spectral Vision to open is mouth and the voice of James Spader comes out. Then he laser beam eyes everybody in the room.
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Mar 1, 2021 19:44
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Oh my god, cataracts are typically white. 
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Mar 1, 2021 19:49
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Marsupial Ape posted:I want Cataract/Spectral Vision to open is mouth and the voice of James Spader comes out. Then he laser beam eyes everybody in the room. And then he just flies away, not giving a poo poo about the hex. I'll be honest, I want this to happen. 
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Mar 1, 2021 19:49
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Marsupial Ape posted:I want Cataract/Spectral Vision to open is mouth and the voice of James Spader comes out. Then he laser beam eyes everybody in the room. White Vision says nothing as he battles Wanda Vision in intense single combat. Finally, Wanda Vision overpowers him and forces him to the ground. "You were naive to think an imitation would be sufficient to defeat me." "Well... I was born yesterday." :
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Mar 1, 2021 19:57
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The_Doctor posted:Oh my god, cataracts are typically white. If it makes you feel better, I was deep into my 30s before I figured out Namor is just Roman spelled backwards. Imperious Rex!
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Mar 1, 2021 20:01
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Marsupial Ape posted:If it makes you feel better, I was deep into my 30s before I figured out Namor is just Roman spelled backwards. Imperious Rex! Haha ohhhh poo poo (I'm 35) I love a good surprise Namor appearance in the comics so if he turns up in one of the upcoming series it'll make my week
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Mar 1, 2021 20:03
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Marsupial Ape posted:If it makes you feel better, I was deep into my 30s before I figured out Namor is just Roman spelled backwards. Imperious Rex! 
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Mar 1, 2021 20:06
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Oh hahahaha you guys. I'm 40. 
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Mar 1, 2021 20:07
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the visions will fight until it becomes clear agatha is the REAL THREAT HERE and then they will perform the fusion dance and become Double Vision
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Mar 1, 2021 20:08
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Cage Kicker posted:the visions will fight until it becomes clear agatha is the REAL THREAT HERE and then they will perform the fusion dance and become Double Vision This belt contains all the powers of the 80's Super Group, Foreigner.
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Mar 1, 2021 20:12
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Sanguinia posted:This belt contains all the powers of the 80's Super Group, Foreigner. https://youtu.be/zvqWQI11wjY
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Mar 1, 2021 20:16
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Sanguinia posted:This belt contains all the powers of the 80's Super Group, Foreigner. Wanda is Hot Blooded Hayward is Cold as Ice
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Mar 1, 2021 20:18
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StrugglingHoneybun posted:Wanda is Hot Blooded Hayward is playing Head Games.
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Mar 1, 2021 20:32
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The_Doctor posted:Oh my god, cataracts are typically white. And give you bad vision.
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Mar 1, 2021 20:33
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Now's as good a time as any to post Ultron California https://youtu.be/Tf-_230SjbM
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Mar 1, 2021 20:36
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Marsupial Ape posted:Hayward is playing Head Games. He's seeing double vision
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Mar 1, 2021 20:47
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