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Funky Valentine posted:I'm pretty sure that's not what happens when you kill the Council, because then there would be no reason for the new Council to ghost you. There are actually three outcomes - save the Council, let the Council die and have them replaced with members of the same species, and let the Council die and have them replaced with humans - but they didn't have the resources/desire to actually flesh out the all human council path in ME2, so their presence in the game is restricted to a mention in the opening sequence and a few snippets of text elsewhere. I'm guessing they ghost you for the same reason - it would be a lot of work to create such a heavily branched cutscene, with several new voiced characters, just for the tiny fraction of people who let the Destiny Ascension explode and then chose the Ultimate Space Racist option. This is about as far as it goes in the ME2 opening text, and I think this is the variation you only see if you back Udina's play to grab control: quote:One month after the devastating geth attack on the Citadel, humanity seized political control of the galaxy. Now the human-led Council is forced to respond to evidence that the Reapers - enormous machines that eradicate all advanced civilizations every 50,000 years - have returned. By ME3 they're replaced with the backup alien councillors regardless.
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Mar 2, 2021 19:34
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Also, it's funny that Udina is telegraphed so, so hard as a villainous awful douchebag from the first moment you meet him, and then there's just never a twist and he becomes a full-on villain in ME3. That speech from the end of ME1 is so comically ominous, he's giving off huge Emperor Palpatine vibes, but then Anderson just nods and goes, "yeah, I don't like it, but I guess that does make sense". It's also kind of funny-sad that the Alliance is meant to be a pan-global human union, but the vast majority of the sympathetic human characters have names like David Anderson and John Shepard while the antagonist jerk human characters are called Udina or Khalisah Bint Sinan Al Jilani. Kaidan having a Russian name is about as close as it gets to subverting the idea that the Alliance are just US/Canada in space.
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Mar 2, 2021 19:45
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Humans seizing total control of the Council seems like a good way to get the species Kroganed.
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Mar 2, 2021 20:00
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WrightOfWay posted:Humans seizing total control of the Council seems like a good way to get the species Kroganed. The ME 1 cutscene frames it as plausible because of a combination of the Human military being the strongest at that point, plus the external existential threat of the reapers. It might even work, honestly, the reapers are basically the classic foreign boogyman fascists use to justify taking over, except they really exist, really can’t be reasoned with, and really are a threat to all life. It wouldn’t be as stable once the reapers are gone, but by then the humans would have had a couple years of power + a total war to restructure things, and assuming they successfully beat the reapers they’d have a big accomplishment to point to and justify why they had to take control. It wouldn’t be the least plausible thing to happen in the setting.
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Mar 2, 2021 20:12
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nine-gear crow posted:at the end of ME1 because picking Udina there just kind of ruins the vibe of the ending. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbXepxOFw9k c'mon this is basically an inch from slapstick you have the asari councillor trying hard to set a cooperative tone, the turian admitting how they really feel, and and Udina should've had the biggest poo poo-eating grin on his face if the animation system allowed it in ME3, the potential of a desperate man doing desperate things as he watches his life's work in politics fail to cash out the favors he'd accrued and also watch his entire world melt into ash could've been something but they just didn't develop it enough. The potential is right there, but no. Mind you being tied into the virmire survivor utter nonsense didn't help any, nobody could've been rescued from that. Psion fucked around with this message at 20:23 on Mar 2, 2021 |
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Mar 2, 2021 20:15
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the line "does the term POLITICAL poo poo-STORM mean anything to you?!" is seared into my brain
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Mar 2, 2021 21:09
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Android Blues posted:the vast majority of the sympathetic human characters have names like David Anderson and John Shepard while the antagonist jerk human characters are called Udina or Khalisah Bint Sinan Al Jilani. I never thought of this before and now I can't unthink it.
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Mar 2, 2021 21:11
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I didn’t even know about half these psycho things. What’s great about Mass Effect is talking to friends and realize they almost playing an entirely different game
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Mar 2, 2021 21:20
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This just reminded me you can appoint Anderson to the Council, but the writers just went lol no and put Udina on it in the next game.
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Mar 2, 2021 21:27
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OhFunny posted:This just reminded me you can appoint Anderson to the Council, but the writers just went lol no and put Udina on it in the next game. At least they acknowledge that Udina is basically just his secretary
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Mar 2, 2021 21:30
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The shot in ME1 where Udina is left alone on the council podium looking all defeated when they refuse to investigate Saren won me over. Udina is a true patriot and angry suit guy and would never work for cerberus I CAN'T HEAR YOU
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Mar 2, 2021 21:32
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Also I feel like the stereotype of 'meddling politician who won't let the special forces spooks do whatever they like no matter the cost' probably falls in a more favourable light these days
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Mar 2, 2021 21:36
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Strategic Tea posted:Also I feel like the stereotype of 'meddling politician who won't let the special forces spooks do whatever they like no matter the cost' probably falls in a more favourable light these days Yeah the whole special forces spook with a license to kill, accountable to literally four people in the galaxy hits a lot different in the Year of our Lord 2021.
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Mar 2, 2021 21:49
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LionYeti posted:Yeah the whole special forces spook with a license to kill, accountable to literally four people in the galaxy hits a lot different in the Year of our Lord 2021. *punches reporter* 
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Mar 2, 2021 21:51
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Moola posted:the line "does the term POLITICAL poo poo-STORM mean anything to you?!" is seared into my brain  these were good games
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Mar 2, 2021 22:03
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All Specters Are Bastards
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Mar 2, 2021 22:06
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Is the remake out yet
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Mar 2, 2021 22:15
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tithin posted:Is the remake out yet the remake is being bundled with Star Citizen, they're releasing together
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Mar 2, 2021 22:22
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nine-gear crow posted:Or that you can play 100% light side exemplar and flip to The Most Evil Motherfucker Ever with literally one dialog choice at the end of the game. Didn't Jade Empire do the same thing as well?
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Mar 3, 2021 00:32
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Strategic Tea posted:The shot in ME1 where Udina is left alone on the council podium looking all defeated when they refuse to investigate Saren won me over. Udina turning to the Illusive Man for help in ME3 and agreeing to his coup idea actually kinda makes sense because Udina loving HATES the rest of the Council, thinks their all useless jackasses, has a lovely opinion on Shepard too, and from his perspective the only people who've been getting real results against the Reapers have been Cerberus so far. So for a man as frustrated and on edge as Udina at that point, just up and murdering Tevos, Sparatus, and Valern would be a hell of a stress reliever.
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Mar 3, 2021 00:37
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I feel like there just wasn't enough done with Udina.
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Mar 3, 2021 00:59
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They kinda tried to do a thing in ME2 where oh hey it turns out the career military guy you appointed because he was nicer to you than the guy who actually knows how council politics work ends up marginalized by the rest of the council and has turned to heavy drinking because he hates his new gig. It doesn't by itself justify giving Udina the gig instead but it does add a nice layer of nuance to the whole situation. That said it sucked Udina just turned out to be a one dimensional villain in ME3 because ME1 did a lot more to paint him as just a career diplomat with lofty personal career ambitions who can thus only see Eden Prime as a colossal fuckup by some Alliance meatheads, and his frustrations with Anderson and Shepard make a lot of sense in that context. He could have been an interesting overarching foil to Shepard and the Alliance who always reframes all the crazy action hear poo poo Shepard does in the context of how it helps or hurts humanity's political standing.
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Mar 3, 2021 01:17
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Maybe I was just dumb and read all the lore dumps wrong, which seems odd because I really was into ME1, but I always was baffled at how Cerberus went from being a rogue splinter of the Alliance's military intelligence that was basically Cobra - at best - who had plans and schemes that all hosed up even without the player intervening, to actually being the motherfucking Illuminati. Like they're just D-Tier Cobra in ME1, but in ME2 they're suddenly the Illuminati. It's wild. Like why didn't they use the Shadow Broker? He was already established as serving more or less the role TIM kind of does, and he doesn't have the baggage of being a space racist so it's not as insulting to the player's agency to have the player indebted to them and working for them a bit. Like it's just such a bizarre and unnecessary retcon.
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Mar 3, 2021 01:44
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From the perspective of Udina and the Coucil it does sound like Shepard, the spec ops soldier who might have PTSD from one-manning the Skyllian Blitz/Surviving Thresher Maws on Akuze/Maybe Committing War Crimes on Tofan and just got exposed from a Prothean Device, might not be sane yelling about Sentient Starships from beyond the galaxy coming to kill us all
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Mar 3, 2021 01:45
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RoboChrist 9000 posted:Maybe I was just dumb and read all the lore dumps wrong, which seems odd because I really was into ME1, but I always was baffled at how Cerberus went from being a rogue splinter of the Alliance's military intelligence that was basically Cobra - at best - who had plans and schemes that all hosed up even without the player intervening, to actually being the motherfucking Illuminati. they had like a whole navy too!
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Mar 3, 2021 02:00
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Working with Cerberus feels like a continuation of the themes of ME1 - the question of whether humans should have a bigger place in galactic politics, but also other things associated with the Renegade options from the first game. If you had to package up the ME1 Renegade options as a bundle of themes, it would look like: • A disdain for red tape, politics, and bureaucratic oversight • A belief that all problems can be solved by an unaccountable paramilitary force making the right calls • General mistrust of others typified by a preference to kill, or control, potential threats before they become an issue • "The aliens are trying to keep humanity down! We need to establish our own power bases to compete with them!" a.k.a. Space Racism Add that up, and it's pretty much Cerberus in a nutshell. So Renegade Shepards from ME1 are likely to feel very at home, while Paragon Shepards get an immediate antagonist in the Illusive Man and then...well, it doesn't entirely work, but I can see what they were going for. Some of the core themes of the trilogy, or at least of the first two games, are embodied in the Cerberus vs. Paragon Shepard conflict and by forcing you to work with TIM for a game, you get to see those debates played out repeatedly through different lenses.
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Mar 3, 2021 02:01
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RoboChrist 9000 posted:Maybe I was just dumb and read all the lore dumps wrong, which seems odd because I really was into ME1, but I always was baffled at how Cerberus went from being a rogue splinter of the Alliance's military intelligence that was basically Cobra - at best - who had plans and schemes that all hosed up even without the player intervening, to actually being the motherfucking Illuminati. ME2 and 3 are actually set in a parallel universe to ME1, so everything seems really familiar but is actually subtly off. (Or the actual explanation of the shooty chargy parts and the cool space friends to hang out with were a lot more popular than the deep lore and worldbuilding parts so that's where all the effort went, but that's boring)
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Mar 3, 2021 02:04
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Android Blues posted:Working with Cerberus feels like a continuation of the themes of ME1 - the question of whether humans should have a bigger place in galactic politics, but also other things associated with the Renegade options from the first game. It should not have been forced. Like it's something so out of character they had to literally kill off Shep at the start of the game and revive them just to make it 'make sense.' Plus, again, you cannot reconcile Cerberus in ME2 with the Cerberus that was depicted in 1. They are completely different and have nothing in common beyond the name and Human supremacy.
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Mar 3, 2021 02:08
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I think part of the reason the Renegade options in ME3 are so dark, relatedly, is because that's the game where Shepard finally has the power to answer those questions conclusively. In ME1 your answer to the genophage question is telling Wrex his people don't deserve salvation, in ME2 it's refusing to preserve Mordin's research, but in ME3 you can actually consign a species to oblivion and spill the blood of your friends to do it.
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Mar 3, 2021 02:10
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Pattonesque posted:they had like a whole navy too! TIM is actually the chairman of the company that builds all the Alliance vessels iirc and has his hand in a ton of other military industries as well
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Mar 3, 2021 02:16
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I barely remembered anything about Cerberus in ME1 (because they were almost entirely relegated to the side missions that all blended together after a certain point) to the point that when I first played ME2 I was deeply confused as to why they were talking about Cerberus like that was something I should know about.
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Mar 3, 2021 02:20
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It's especially funny as ME1 cerberus missions were just a bunch of really boring sidequests that all looked the same. The plotline with the Geth finding shepard instead would have been so much more fun.
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Mar 3, 2021 02:39
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Cerberus are barely described in ME1 really, they're just a shadowy splinter of the Alliance military gone rogue that likes mad science experiments. There are no notable Cerberus characters and there isn't much elucidation on their organisation or philosophy. They only appear in a single, optional sidequest chain. ME2 Cerberus isn't a deviation so much as it's an elaboration on very little material. It's not as if they were richly defined in the first game and then the second game contradicts that - they're just a sketch in ME1.
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Mar 3, 2021 02:40
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhRUka09TCg
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Mar 3, 2021 03:01
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RoboChrist 9000 posted:Maybe I was just dumb and read all the lore dumps wrong, which seems odd because I really was into ME1, but I always was baffled at how Cerberus went from being a rogue splinter of the Alliance's military intelligence that was basically Cobra - at best - who had plans and schemes that all hosed up even without the player intervening, to actually being the motherfucking Illuminati. I mean..the Cerberus you see in ME1 are just random cells that failed to keep themselves secret. It's a terrorist organization with hundreds of cells, you don't get any sense of how big or widespread it is because that's how terrorist cells work. It's rationalized as a splinter cell because significant portions of the Alliance Military -were- part of Cerberus and Kohaku didn't know it was much bigger than just that. And the stuff you do learn about them casts a pretty big shadow. They obtained the Rachi, a feat that shows they have resources and connections no one else in the galaxy had. They had deeply infiltrated the Alliance to the point that they could assassinate an admiral without anyone caring. They also had connections deep enough in ExoGeni to get access to the Thorian. They're just minor sidequests to Shepard, but they are hardly out of line with what's shown in ME2. They have a different tone there, but that's deliberate because TIM is whitewashing as hard as he can to get Shepard on his side. The fleet honestly isn't a big stretch either, Cerberus has been around since the first contact war. The Systems Alliance started a huge military expansion (from practically nothing to sufficient enough to challenge the military superpower of the galaxy) and given his connections it's not hard to believe TIM siphoned from that. Also they're still just as incompetent in ME2/3, that never changed.
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Mar 3, 2021 03:02
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It's also a plotpoint that TIL bends over backwards to present Cerberus in the best possible light to Shepard, including making sure the worst stuff like the biotic experiments on Jack or studying how soldiers respond to being torn apart by thresher maws look like they were done by rogue cells rather than under his orders.
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Mar 3, 2021 03:20
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Come to think of it, after ME1, nobody believed Shepard about the Reapers and just assumed that the Geth had a really big warship. But then the Council just decided to let it be a one-off and not only ignore Shepard's explanation about the coming Reapers, but also ignore their own explanation about how the Geth just launched the biggest attack on the Citadel in history, and they didn't try waging a war or anything in response. That's weird.
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Mar 3, 2021 04:02
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Ah, yes, "geth". We have dismissed those claims.
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Mar 3, 2021 04:09
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SlothfulCobra posted:Come to think of it, after ME1, nobody believed Shepard about the Reapers and just assumed that the Geth had a really big warship. But then the Council just decided to let it be a one-off and not only ignore Shepard's explanation about the coming Reapers, but also ignore their own explanation about how the Geth just launched the biggest attack on the Citadel in history, and they didn't try waging a war or anything in response. In the intro to ME2 the council assigned you to investigating the Geth. They didn’t ignore it and probably thought they were assigning their best person for the task. Of course you and your crew think it’s bullshit because they actually had a chat with sovereign.
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Mar 3, 2021 04:14
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SlothfulCobra posted:Come to think of it, after ME1, nobody believed Shepard about the Reapers and just assumed that the Geth had a really big warship. But then the Council just decided to let it be a one-off and not only ignore Shepard's explanation about the coming Reapers, but also ignore their own explanation about how the Geth just launched the biggest attack on the Citadel in history, and they didn't try waging a war or anything in response. Isn't that what the first Normandy got nuked doing? Wasn't it running down sightings of geth? I was under the impression the Alliance/Council did wage a campaign against the aggressive geth they could find.
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Mar 3, 2021 04:20
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