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I imagine you’ll have to pay a subscription for the service. I am under the impression that repeatedly rapidly charging batteries is bad for them, so I wonder how that will factor in. Maybe someone who knows more can provide their insight!! I don’t really pay much attention to EV stuff. Edit for context! Toe Rag fucked around with this message at 22:11 on Mar 2, 2021 |
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Mar 2, 2021 22:08
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Hell yes I can't wait to swap batteries between my eSXV and my eMAX. Also, to rant on a different subject: in what possible context could "Intruder" be seen as a positive name for your motorcycle model?
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Mar 2, 2021 22:52
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all I want is an electric postie goddammit Honda this is not that hard
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Mar 2, 2021 22:54
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LodeRunner posted:So in other drama I got into it with the CEO of Lightning last night on a Facebook rant. He threw accusations around about us trying to destroy him and his company and said he was on a 60 day lead time for delivering his (Premium) Carbon Edition Strike motorcycles. I know for a fact that local owner, Jeff, got an under-specced bike he paid full price for in December of 2019 and has been unable to get made whole. Further, Jeff told me Lightning has been ignoring his emails. Jeff is very much a private person and doesn't go for confrontation much, but this is how the night ended. NewZeroland was all about to get a Lightning and I guess he must have smelled something fishy, and instead went with an Energica.
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Mar 2, 2021 23:06
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Renaissance Robot posted:all I want is an electric postie goddammit Honda this is not that hard
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Mar 2, 2021 23:08
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captainOrbital posted:Hell yes I can't wait to swap batteries between my eSXV and my eMAX. I was under the impression it was named after the interdiction plane and/or just plain engrish misunderstanding.
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Mar 3, 2021 00:24
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captainOrbital posted:Hell yes I can't wait to swap batteries between my eSXV and my eMAX. Well, it's intruding on Harley's turf. Intruding on the whole American cruiser thing. Also like Slavvy said, probably also the aircraft reference thing, since Honda had an Interceptor.
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Mar 3, 2021 01:02
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Steakandchips posted:NewZeroland was all about to get a Lightning and I guess he must have smelled something fishy, and instead went with an Energica. Actually it almost cost us our friendship. He was really, REALLY, hoping for it to be true. At some point people are in so deep they're blinded to everything. He's doing much better now! Actually I bought him an SA account so he can participate in this thread; he's watching it. Hi buddy!
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Mar 3, 2021 01:18
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I have been evangelizing that point for years. There needs to be a standard battery unit. They are all the same. They all have the same connectors and the same ratings. Basically propane exchange except for with batteries. You pull your 250cc sized bike up to the station and swap out 2 battery units. You pull up in your full dresser Harley and swap in 5, you pull up in your F150 sized truck and swap in 15. You could literally do it (at least for cars) like a jiffy lube. Pull up over a trench in the ground and an automated system grabs the right amount of battery for your car, arranges it in the order needed, lowers down your dead packs and raises up your fresh ones. Your batteries are never yours but like propane, you don’t really care And you can still plug in at home. Obviously this works way easier for cars than bikes but all the concepts are the same. In my mind this is better than waiting for a potential future battery tech that charges as fast as gas pumps. That’s not here and we don’t know when it will be. The swap system lets you spend “gas filling” amounts of time getting a full charge. Seriously I’ve been crowing about this for years. I’m glad someone’s finally doing it Beve Stuscemi fucked around with this message at 01:36 on Mar 3, 2021 |
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Mar 3, 2021 01:33
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I hate to be the stick in the mud but I just see that as a nightmare that doesn't work out for anyone. Batteries are waaay too wild west right now to try and enforce this level of standardization. Maybe for low-power commuter scooter Vespa equivalents, but the logistical nightmare of this in larger, higher voltage packs.... It makes more sense with cars where space isn't a premium, but designing a battery pack for a motorcycle is a very hard task.
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Mar 3, 2021 02:15
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Maybe you have two, one size for small vehicles and one for passenger cars and above. I feel like this completely bespoke battery pack business can’t scale forever either. It works now because electric cars are such a tiny percentage of cars on the road, so high levels of customization are needed to solve the problem because nothing else exists. When you’re taking 95% of cars on the road are electric cars, every single car model having a wholly unique and custom battery pack is not sustainable.
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Mar 3, 2021 02:23
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The problem with battery exchange is battery life is so dependent on how they're treated - how fast they're charged, how much they're discharged, etc, so it kind of sucks unless you really are swapping it all the time so you don't care because a warranty is meaningless. Plus there's the issue of batteries being increasingly prone to fires the more you push them, so if you're Honda do you want to warranty a battery that's been in a KTM? I'm not sure that comparison is fair, but for a car analogy it's like Porsche allowing a battery from a Tesla to get swapped into a Taycan.
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Mar 3, 2021 02:46
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Yeah there would have to be logic in the batteries to keep them working within spec and to alert when they have degraded to the point that they have to be pulled out of the pool, etc. There can be current limiting stuff in the battery itself to help save them as far as over discharge is concerned. It’s not a system without its flaws for sure, but it does solve the problem of charge time.
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Mar 3, 2021 02:53
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A bike with a swappable battery is always going to be heavier or lower-capacity (or both) than one where the battery is integrated. All the hardware required to do it takes up significant space and weight that could otherwise be eliminated or used for more battery capacity. If you have 15 separate encapsulated motorcycle battery packs in your F-150, that's 15 extra metal boxes and quick-disconnects and cooling fittings and whatnot than you would have with an integrated pack. I'd bet the difference in performance would be on the same order as phones with removable batteries vs. the new glued-together ones with prismatic packs: around 50% more capacity in the integrated model while being thinner and lighter. I also think that there are a whole lot more logistical and safety issues with swapping out a lithium-ion battery pack for a vehicle than a metal can of propane for a barbecue. A propane tank is basically either leaking or not, but a battery can fail in all sorts of sneaky ways, and the automotive environment demands more reliability than the cookout environment. Plus if your propane can gets dented or something it doesn't really matter, but if one of these batteries that has to slot into the bottom of your car gets dropped and the tabs bend and the robot tries to force it into the receptacle... Add to this other random issues like handling the greatly increased pack degradation (if they're being cycled out at gas stations, they're in much heavier use than sitting in your driveway), figuring out how to quick-disconnect the liquid cooling that is required for modern performance expectations, etc. and I just don't really see it becoming a thing. Sagebrush fucked around with this message at 03:11 on Mar 3, 2021 |
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Mar 3, 2021 03:09
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gently caress yes! LodeRunner posted:I hate to be the stick in the mud but I just see that as a nightmare that doesn't work out for anyone. Batteries are waaay too wild west right now to try and enforce this level of standardization. Maybe for low-power commuter scooter Vespa equivalents, but the logistical nightmare of this in larger, higher voltage packs.... OK, wait, what's the problem for dirt bikes? Here's KTM current electric bike. https://www.ktm.com/en-us/models/e-ride/freeride/ktm-freeride-e-xc2021.html Maybe I'm being overly hopeful but it seems like for dirtbikes at least the requirements are fairly similar across brands. LodeRunner posted:So in other drama I got into it with the CEO of Lightning last night on a Facebook rant. He threw accusations around about us trying to destroy him and his company and said he was on a 60 day lead time for delivering his (Premium) Carbon Edition Strike motorcycles. I know for a fact that local owner, Jeff, got an under-specced bike he paid full price for in December of 2019 and has been unable to get made whole. Further, Jeff told me Lightning has been ignoring his emails. Jeff is very much a private person and doesn't go for confrontation much, but this is how the night ended. That's the guy who didn't want to turn the bike over to EV Racing LLC? That guy is hilarious. But not intentionally. Sagebrush posted:A bike with a swappable battery is always going to be heavier or lower-capacity (or both) than one where the battery is integrated. All the hardware required to do it takes up significant space and weight that could otherwise be eliminated or used for more battery capacity. If you have 15 separate encapsulated motorcycle battery packs in your F-150, that's 15 extra metal boxes and quick-disconnects and cooling fittings and whatnot than you would have with an integrated pack. I'd bet the difference in performance would be on the same order as phones with removable batteries vs. the new glued-together ones with prismatic packs: around 50% more capacity in the integrated model while being thinner and lighter. I just want the possibility of carrying an extra battery with me so I can ride for 5 hours. 
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Mar 3, 2021 03:13
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builds character posted:OK, wait, what's the problem for dirt bikes? Here's KTM current electric bike. https://www.ktm.com/en-us/models/e-ride/freeride/ktm-freeride-e-xc2021.html Maybe I'm being overly hopeful but it seems like for dirtbikes at least the requirements are fairly similar across brands. I could see it possibly for dirt bikes, but mainly for scooters. Richard Hatfield is the CEO of Lightning Motorcycles. As far as swappable dirt bike batteries, Zero ...sorta does this if you have enough money. The Zero FX can be ordered with modular, swappable battery packs. You unlock the enclosure arm and knock the packs out. We found it's easiest to use your knee. Then you can put fresh ones in. But you wouldn't strap these to your back or anything; you'd have a van you go back to or something. But each battery module is a hefty $2500. Doable but not practical.
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Mar 3, 2021 03:36
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LodeRunner posted:(Premium) Carbon Edition Strike
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Mar 3, 2021 03:48
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I don't think swappability is the point of this, but rather to drastically simplify and cheapen the supply chain. I don't think the intent is you hot-swapping batteries like they're lpg cylinders, I think the intent is more like how every japanese bike has either tokicos or nissins, mikunis or keihins etc. You don't have a Yamaha carb or Honda brakes, they are semi generic parts built to order because it doesn't really make a difference if you develop your own and it's much cheaper just using something off the shelf. They're effectively trying to create the shelf.
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Mar 3, 2021 03:50
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See that idea I like. Relatively standardized modules that are still meant for integration but can be mass-produced in volumes that make economic sense, and easily replaced/repaired/refurbished by a mechanic but not necessarily at a gas station.
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Mar 3, 2021 04:57
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Speaking from a position of absolute ignorance here, but even if it's not a sealed self-containted unit, if it's gonna be a standard part with standard sizing and connectors and stuff why would it necessarily be difficult to swap out? e: Also, wouldn't "standardised and swappable" imply "self contained" to some degree? Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 05:07 on Mar 3, 2021 |
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Mar 3, 2021 05:04
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If it doesn't have to be swapped out quickly, it can be installed somewhere that doesn't have direct access to the outside of the vehicle, potentially meaning you can fit a bigger battery into the available space or place it more optimally for weight and balance. It can also probably be larger because you can partially disassemble the bike to get it out, rather than needing essentially a full-sized hole somewhere from which to extract it. It also can be built more lightly because it doesn't need to resist being thrown around at a gas station -- you can rely on the motorcycle body to protect it from impact. And you don't have to worry about things like quick-disconnect fluid fittings or electrical contacts, because those can be handled normally with drains and bolts and such.
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Mar 3, 2021 05:09
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Random stuff that is largely standardized and swappable across drastically different bikes right now: Tyres Spark plugs Oil filters Chains Carb jets Fuel injectors, ignition coils, various sensors/relays/fuses/connectors Batteries All stuff that gets you out of the poo poo and is reasonable to expect a workshop to have on hand if you've got a suzuki or whatever. So imo it would be reasonable for a workshop to have a few of the most common batteries in stock just like they do with 12v stuff. Is it reasonable to expect to swap them out yourself like printer cartridges? Idk. Is it reasonable to expect your flogged out cells to have equal trade value on a known good one in a blind exchange? Yeah nah.
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Mar 3, 2021 05:19
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LodeRunner posted:Actually it almost cost us our friendship. He was really, REALLY, hoping for it to be true. At some point people are in so deep they're blinded to everything. He's doing much better now! Actually I bought him an SA account so he can participate in this thread; he's watching it. Hi buddy! I hope NewZeroland speaks up here and gives us the lowdown, it sounds quite interesting, i.e. how he got persuaded to go Energica instead of Lightning.
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Mar 3, 2021 10:07
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Maybe the swappable batteries at public stations could work with a standard, but not in the United States. All I can think of are the people who rent trucks to do donuts and trash them, or rent cars to slam them into reverse at high speed. I don't want a battery that's been anywhere near those people.Slavvy posted:I don't think swappability is the point of this, but rather to drastically simplify and cheapen the supply chain. I don't think the intent is you hot-swapping batteries like they're lpg cylinders, I think the intent is more like how every japanese bike has either tokicos or nissins, mikunis or keihins etc. You don't have a Yamaha carb or Honda brakes, they are semi generic parts built to order because it doesn't really make a difference if you develop your own and it's much cheaper just using something off the shelf. They're effectively trying to create the shelf. This is really insightful.
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Mar 3, 2021 15:45
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Hell, the sv650 uses a Miata oil filter. The cross pollination of common parts and the economies of scale that they present is critical to keeping the prices where they are. I’ll admit that my jiffy lube battery station idea isn’t perfect and it has a ways to go but I’ll stand by the idea that a battery standard 100% needs to exist and batteries need to be commoditized to the point that they become as cheap as possible to manufacture and sell. Like spark plugs and oil filters.
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Mar 3, 2021 15:58
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Jim Silly-Balls posted:Hell, the sv650 uses a Miata oil filter.  I.... did not know this. Neat.
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Mar 3, 2021 16:06
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Correction, I’m getting my bikes confused. It’s the Versys 650 that uses the same 20mmx1.5mm as the Miata
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Mar 3, 2021 16:18
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That's less neat as I've never had a Versys. I've owned a sv650 and have a Miata now.
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Mar 3, 2021 17:16
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Yuns posted:That actually owns. It'd be great to have an industry standard for swappable batteries especially backed by a deep pocketed and established manufacturers like Honda and Yamaha. Not so much you KTM and Piaggio. You are aware that Piaggio are the second-largest (non-Chinese*) motorcycle manufacturer in the world, right? Like Vespa alone outsell Yamaha (third-largest) by a fair margin. Scooters and 125s absolutely dwarf the entire rest of the world market, which is why Honda are so comfortably the largest manufacturer in the world - Yamaha outsell them (at least in Europe) quite a bit in the >125 market but that's a rounding error in Honda's business. * Numbers on Chinese manufacturers are murky because of the amount of rebadging, badge-sharing and general shenanigans that go on, similarly for non-RE Indian makers, also literally nobody tells the truth about how many bikes they sell in China.
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Mar 4, 2021 10:05
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I'm aware that the small motorcycle/scooter market dwarfs the bigger motorcycle market globally (which is why Honda is so huge in 2 wheeled transport) but Piaggio doesn't make anything that I'm interested in so swappable batteries for city scooters are way down my interest list. EDIT: I didn't realize Piaggio Group owns Aprilia too. Yuns fucked around with this message at 14:52 on Mar 4, 2021 |
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Mar 4, 2021 14:50
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Yuns posted:I'm aware that the small motorcycle/scooter market dwarfs the bigger motorcycle market globally (which is why Honda is so huge in 2 wheeled transport) but Piaggio doesn't make anything that I'm interested in so swappable batteries for city scooters are way down my interest list. The point is they are definitely in the "deep pocketed manufacturer" category.
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Mar 4, 2021 15:10
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Yuns posted:I'm aware that the small motorcycle/scooter market dwarfs the bigger motorcycle market globally (which is why Honda is so huge in 2 wheeled transport) but Piaggio doesn't make anything that I'm interested in so swappable batteries for city scooters are way down my interest list. In fairness, *Piaggio* seem to forget that sometimes too, and are presumably surprised when Galuzzi turns up with a load of designs for Gilera. They also own Guzzi, and I reckon that engine layout would make hot-swapping batteries even easier as long as you don't drop the bike while you're doing it. Finger Prince posted:The point is they are definitely in the "deep pocketed manufacturer" category. *insert "taking the RSV4 from sketch to racing in under a year just to flex on Honda" story here.
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Mar 4, 2021 15:23
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Finger Prince posted:The point is they are definitely in the "deep pocketed manufacturer" category. In FY2020 Honda spent $7.5 billion across all its divisions in R&D. Yamaha Motor spent $950 million in R&D. Piaggio in FY2019 spent $69 million in R&D. Yuns fucked around with this message at 15:53 on Mar 4, 2021 |
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Mar 4, 2021 15:23
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Yuns posted:Not the way Honda ($18.6 billion in motocycle/scooter revenue in FY2020) and Yamaha's ($8.8 billion in land transportation in FY2020) operations are. In comparison all of Piaggio Group in FY2019 was $1.8 billion in revenue. Nice.
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Mar 4, 2021 15:31
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goddamnedtwisto posted:
Oh god I just got a vision of a Guzzi standard that looks the same as the ICE with the engine heads and cooling fins, but batteries inside. You walk to each side and grab a handle on top, turn it left with a kr-CHUNK, and pull the cell out like a reactor rod. Fins cool the batteries, of course.
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Mar 4, 2021 15:42
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Coydog posted:Oh god I just got a vision of a Guzzi standard that looks the same as the ICE with the engine heads and cooling fins, but batteries inside. You walk to each side and grab a handle on top, turn it left with a kr-CHUNK, and pull the cell out like a reactor rod. Fins cool the batteries, of course. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVaU0UOZozI
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Mar 4, 2021 15:52
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This was excellent thank you.
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Mar 4, 2021 17:03
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Mar 4, 2021 18:14
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Ok I lost it at the coupon comment. Still, I feel weird that the biggest problem I see with this is "What racetrack are you playing at bro they all banned you".
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Mar 4, 2021 18:59
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Coydog posted:Ok I lost it at the coupon comment. Still, I feel weird that the biggest problem I see with this is "What racetrack are you playing at bro they all banned you". I was pretty pleased with myself for having just woken up. But yeah new plan is apparently Road Atlanta, GA.
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Mar 4, 2021 19:02
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