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Read the OP and skipped to the end, so forgive me if this is a dumb question. I’ve got an offer letter in hand for a role with a Big 4 in London doing US tax (I am in the US currently). I’m fairly happy with the salary, which is around what I want. However, the relocation package is... less than optimal. They’re giving me £1600 and two weeks in a hotel, plus visa sponsorship. Seems a little light to get myself and a cat across the ocean. That said, do y’all think it makes sense to explain what my costs are when I ask for a increase to that, or just ask. I suppose I can just ask first, then if they push back prove it with numbers. “Offer Letter” posted:the cost of your relocation and may be used for any purpose including relocation expenses such as flights, shipping or excess baggage and future Biometric appointment fees at visa renewal stage.
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Feb 28, 2021 23:32
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Hurt Whitey Maybe posted:Read the OP and skipped to the end, so forgive me if this is a dumb question. I relocated to KSA a few years ago, and the company I work for lowballed me on my relocation package and I just sent back a counteroffer that was more realistic to my situation and they accepted it with no fuss. I don't really see any reason not to bring the issue up. Not sure they'll want to pay for the cat, though, considering how expensive taking a mammal to the UK can be. Unless that's changed since the last time I was there.
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Mar 1, 2021 16:54
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I...don't think he has to mention the cat.
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Mar 1, 2021 16:56
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KOTEX GOD OF BLOOD posted:I...don't think he has to mention the cat. That was kind of my point. If it gets to the point where he has to justify it with data, the cat might be an issue if that's part of the math he used to get the number he wants. But, like I said, my company just said "okay" when I told them I needed a better package.
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Mar 1, 2021 17:07
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If you're not weird about it the worst you'll get is "no" so why not ask?
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Mar 1, 2021 17:27
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Hurt Whitey Maybe posted:However, the relocation package is... less than optimal. They’re giving me £1600 and two weeks in a hotel, plus visa sponsorship. Seems a little light to get myself and a cat across the ocean. Depending on what your actual costs are, I'd ask for at least $10k USD min. $~2000 won't get you far... I always aim for 1.5X my expected moving costs when negotiating relo.
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Mar 1, 2021 17:55
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Thanks all. I went through my recruiter and listed some of the estimated costs I had seen from initial research and tossed out £4,000, so will see what they say. Recruiter seems to think that the £1600 is standard per person, so not super confident, but are they really being cheap about this when I’m ready to sign otherwise? Don’t particularly care about the cost of the cat in particular, she’s coming along regardless (she’s a very good cat!), but figured there’s no reason not to try shaking the money tree here. Suppose if I just called the cat “my five year old” I could be looking at £3200 lol.
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Mar 1, 2021 18:18
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I assume you mean you will shoulder the burden of getting your cat to the UK regardless of what it takes, but on the off chance that's not what you meant, please don't attempt to illegibly import an animal in to a foreign country. It goes very poorly.
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Mar 2, 2021 04:29
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:I assume you mean you will shoulder the burden of getting your cat to the UK regardless of what it takes, but on the off chance that's not what you meant, please don't attempt to illegibly import an animal in to a foreign country. It goes very poorly. That is indeed what I mean lol. I can certainly afford to legally import the cat but I would prefer not to afford it.
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Mar 2, 2021 14:06
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Hurt Whitey Maybe posted:Thanks all. I went through my recruiter and listed some of the estimated costs I had seen from initial research and tossed out £4,000, so will see what they say. Recruiter seems to think that the £1600 is standard per person, so not super confident, but are they really being cheap about this when I’m ready to sign otherwise?
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Mar 2, 2021 14:45
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spf3million posted:Is the 1600 standard for relocating someone already in the UK? I meant can you even get a flight for that much? It’s for a US tax role in the UK, so I’m hardly the first to relo from the US for a role like this. Not sure how they attract much talent with only £1600, so hopefully they come back with more, because it seems awfully low.
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Mar 2, 2021 17:51
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Hurt Whitey Maybe posted:It’s for a US tax role in the UK, so I’m hardly the first to relo from the US for a role like this. Not sure how they attract much talent with only £1600, so hopefully they come back with more, because it seems awfully low. It seems like BS imo. I would expect $10K USD to move across the country. Across countries... way more than that.
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Mar 2, 2021 18:26
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spwrozek posted:It seems like BS imo. I would expect $10K USD to move across the country. Across countries... way more than that. That's what I got moving domestically from the Midwest back to the east coast
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Mar 2, 2021 19:11
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Chaotic Flame posted:That's what I got moving domestically from the Midwest back to the east coast Yeah I got 10K to move just me in 2011 for a mid level engineering job from Michigan to Colorado (single, no house, easy move). I would probably want at least 2X that to move to another country.
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Mar 2, 2021 19:51
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Okay, I need some advice. I posted first in the career path thread, but now that I have a verbal offer, this is probably the appropriate place. I'm an engineer in northern Indiana. That means RVs, lovely 'engineering' and some real automotive here and there. I work at a company and get about $92k a year, which is quite a bit for what I do, at least talking around that seems to be the case. I'm 39 and this is my third engineering job around here. I've been here 8.5 years. It's been COL raises for years, except the one year where I threatened to quit (I had an offer from elsewhere) and got another $5k and another week of vacation. Anyway, I enjoy what I do, I enjoy the people I work with. Management however is toxic, and my boss is an rear end in a top hat. He's a petulant child that refuses to put anything in writing, gets into shouting matches over nothing and is overtly racist. And he's one of the better managers. It's all egos trying to cover their asses. I'm working towards a leadership position of some sort, which would bring more money, but nothing's been promised. I'd like to think I could change the place for the better, but who knows, it may be too far gone. I have a verbal offer from another local company. They're about a third of the drive (8 miles away vs 24), an actual tier 1 automotive supplier, and the job would have travel to Mexico, Europe and China (which would be a new and cool experience for me). It's the kind of engineering I'd love to do. The big downside is that the best they've been able to do is to offer me $85k - assuming a COL raise at the end of this month (which is when we'll know for sure), that's about a $10,000 cut in pay. Additionally, my benefits wouldn't kick in until the first of the following month, which I'm not too happy about. To get the formal written offer and the benefits information I'd have to accept the verbal offer. They (well, the recruiter) wanted an answer soon, we agreed that I could give them until tomorrow morning. To complicate things, I have another interview in a couple of weeks with another local company - a company that supplies stuff to the RV industry. It's something I've been trying to avoid. I was going to ignore this recruiter until they threw $115k/year out there, which made me pay attention. I should also be getting a full benefits document tonight for this place. I don't think either company would come close to matching the 115k number but I know that's also far from certain. My heart wants to do automotive engineering but I don't want to take a pay cut. I have two kids that I need to worry about paying their college education for. I hate big decisions like this. I love the people that I work with and I make enough to be comfortable, it's just so infuriating sometimes to work there... and I've been there long enough that the longer I stay, I think the worse it would look on my resume and the worse off I'll be in the long run. Thoughts? Suggestions?
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Mar 3, 2021 00:51
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I would never accept a pay cut except in the absolute direst circumstances, but that's me. You have to decide what's really important for you. I would only caution you that when you hate your current employers it's easy to romanticize how much better an Unknown Potential Employer would be--and then often they turn out to be just as bad, or even worse. Personally I would rather stay put and hold out for a job that actually increases my compensation. The ideal thing for you to do is relocate to where actual interesting jobs are, but since you're married/have kids I presume that isn't really an option for you.
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Mar 3, 2021 01:03
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The fact that the 85K offer seems to be lower than market based on your current and other company, PLUS the fact that they won't share benefit information unless you accept an offer verbally raises some flags for me. Also, international travel expected and only 85K seems weird to me but I've only lived in HCOL since entering the workforce so I may be skewed there.
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Mar 3, 2021 01:09
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The withholding of benefit information is a negotiation show stopper imo. They are hiding information from you. It is standard and expected to be provided that information up front. There's no good reason for them to be doing that. It strikes me as extremely untrustworthy and not transparent.
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Mar 3, 2021 01:11
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Here's what the recruiter tells me
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Mar 3, 2021 01:21
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CornHolio posted:Here's what the recruiter tells me Like Guinness said, it's standard to see benefits before accepting any offer, verbal or otherwise. How can you accept when you don't have all the information?
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Mar 3, 2021 01:26
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Why have you been trying to avoid RV engineering? Do you feel the work would be less fulfilling than automotive engineering? Consider how much of your day is spent on actual engineering where this makes a difference. (I'm not trying to be snarky & I don't know, it could be 90%.) If nothing else, it would give you an internal confidence boost when you negotiate your next+1 job. Also, don't forget that $115K is a floor to negotiate upward from as well. Echoing what everyone else said about the benefits. The standard line (and standard because it's true) is "I can't evaluate this salary outside the context of the total comp & benefits package that come with the position." They're either shady AF or desperate AF to fill it, and probably not the latter if they're lowballing you on salary. e: former<>latter Admiralty Flag fucked around with this message at 01:48 on Mar 3, 2021 |
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Mar 3, 2021 01:31
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Yeah between that and the pressure to accept NOW NOW NOW that company is shady as hell and trying to pull a fast one on you. Tell them to gently caress off.
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Mar 3, 2021 01:34
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:please don't attempt to illegibly import an animal in to a foreign country. It goes very poorly. Yes, agreed - the cat should really be typed.
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Mar 3, 2021 02:28
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CornHolio posted:Here's what the recruiter tells me I have definitely had this including with a large prospective employer. I didn't ask about bennies at the time, but I can't imagine they cannot give the details to you at that stage. If they can't that's a red flag and an obvious error in their process. It is quite annoying that recruiters require you to accept an offer verbally before providing a written offer, I'm not sure what the angle is there, reducing paperwork for them if you're not going to accept I guess?
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Mar 3, 2021 04:05
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Inner Light posted:I have definitely had this including with a large prospective employer. I didn't ask about bennies at the time, but I can't imagine they cannot give the details to you at that stage. If they can't that's a red flag and an obvious error in their process.
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Mar 3, 2021 04:09
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Also from a psych point of view, you are less likely to decline the offer if you've already verbally agreed to it.
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Mar 3, 2021 05:02
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Yup, this is something worth drawing a hard line on unless you need/want this job badly. How can you possibly accept without knowing total compensation? It's possible the recruiter is jerking you around due to the terms of his commission but who the hell knows. Don't budge.
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Mar 3, 2021 05:15
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Dik Hz posted:It's to preempt negotiation on the benefits packaged. "You already accepted the offer" Parallelwoody posted:Also from a psych point of view, you are less likely to decline the offer if you've already verbally agreed to it. 
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Mar 3, 2021 05:21
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By "benefits" does that mean you have no idea about everything from monthly health care premiums to, like, 401k matching? Any annual bonuses? Because, yeah, there's a lot of room to increase your total comp that they're blackballing you on over the verbal yes. If you're not literally desperate to get out of your current situation, I would really, really be inclined to politely refuse unless they're willing to cough up more info and probably also come up in salary quite a ways.
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Mar 3, 2021 05:35
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So I just had a phone interview that lasted an hour and a half and went pretty well in my opinion. The position is several states away and the interviewer (who would be my interim supervisor) asked when I would be available to schedule a trip out to see the facility and do a face to face. This would be my first relo for a position and I'm assuming they will pay for the trip/board but is there a diplomatic way of affirming that? Also any tips on negotiating relo? I saw 5k mentioned as benchmark a few posts ago, that standard across industries? Also thanks thread, I not only had the confidence to hold firm on not naming a number but also stood my ground on not answering an interview question that shouldn't have really been asked regarding my family, which this thread has boosted tremendously.
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Mar 3, 2021 05:40
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Pandemic's not over yet so I'm not sure who in their right mind would be scheduling a face-to-face. Several states over, no less.
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Mar 3, 2021 05:41
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Pandemic's not over yet so I'm not sure who in their right mind would be scheduling a face-to-face. Several states over, no less. Are you familiar with Texas?
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Mar 3, 2021 05:51
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Inner Light posted:Are you familiar with Texas? I explicitly said "in their right mind".
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Mar 3, 2021 05:51
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Guinness posted:The withholding of benefit information is a negotiation show stopper imo. They are hiding information from you. It is standard and expected to be provided that information up front. There's no good reason for them to be doing that. It strikes me as extremely untrustworthy and not transparent. This is how I feel as well. Especially these days when the benefit package is arguably more important that total cash compensation. First thing I check out when looking at employers is the health insurance and PTO package. Cash comp is secondary really. I started a new job in Jan, and I was blown away how they handled everything. It's a large company and complies with a bunch of different laws like the California fair chance act, so I didn't even start the background check process until a full conditional offer of employment was made. The offer was a 2 page PDF detailing my overall compensation including time off, benefits, retirement matching, etc complete with pie charts and everything. I accepted the offer in Dec 2020 but didn't start until Jan 2021. They made a small change to the bonus program, which dropped the potential bonus by 1%. They actually adjusted my salary upwards 1% so the compensation would be the same and I "didn't feel like I was being misled". It was 1% and I probably wouldn't have said anything, but what sort of employer proactively does that? The entire benefit package was made 100% available to me. I understood everything I was signing up for. Benefits started day 1 as well. Parallelwoody posted:So I just had a phone interview that lasted an hour and a half and went pretty well in my opinion. The position is several states away and the interviewer (who would be my interim supervisor) asked when I would be available to schedule a trip out to see the facility and do a face to face. This would be my first relo for a position and I'm assuming they will pay for the trip/board but is there a diplomatic way of affirming that? Also any tips on negotiating relo? I saw 5k mentioned as benchmark a few posts ago, that standard across industries? Also thanks thread, I not only had the confidence to hold firm on not naming a number but also stood my ground on not answering an interview question that shouldn't have really been asked regarding my family, which this thread has boosted tremendously. Yes, the company should definitely be footing the bill for airfare, transportation, hotel, and reasonable food expenses, just like they would for an employee on a business trip. A diplomatic way of confirming that is asking who you should coordinate the travel with. There's probably an executive assistant, or HR rep that will be booking everything through their travel system. Larger companies tend to go through Concur or some other travel management system for flights/hotels, etc. Relo sadly tends to depend on how high up the position is. I know 16 years ago I got 5K relo (reimburseable) as a junior IT guy making 42K a year. The director level person relocating as well had a much more generous relo package. Different companies handle things differently. They may offer a flat relocation allowance for the position, offer to reimburse up to X amount of dollars, or if it's an executive level relo, cover certain outlined costs no matter how expensive. Those can run into the 6 figures sometimes. 5K seems really low to me though.
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Mar 3, 2021 06:14
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MJP posted:Yes, agreed - the cat should really be typed. THANK YOU. That poo poo was hanging there so long it was painful.
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Mar 3, 2021 09:18
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spwrozek posted:Yeah I got 10K to move just me in 2011 for a mid level engineering job from Michigan to Colorado (single, no house, easy move). I would probably want at least 2X that to move to another country. Envious of you guys and your humane relocation packages. I work for an Asian company and our barebones expense policy means we reimburse a one way economy ticket (regardless of distance) and two weeks in a budget hotel.
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Mar 3, 2021 11:48
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I concur with all of the stuff about Cornholio's offer being shady. I would pass. A 30-day wait period for various benefits to kick in is fairly normal, though. Hope you don't get sick or whatever during that period!!! 
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Mar 3, 2021 14:49
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I had to wait 90 days for my benefits to kick in when I got my job out of school. For my wife and I when those insurance cards came in the mail it was an event second only to actually getting married.
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Mar 3, 2021 16:18
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Parallelwoody posted:So I just had a phone interview that lasted an hour and a half and went pretty well in my opinion. The position is several states away and the interviewer (who would be my interim supervisor) asked when I would be available to schedule a trip out to see the facility and do a face to face. This would be my first relo for a position and I'm assuming they will pay for the trip/board but is there a diplomatic way of affirming that? Also any tips on negotiating relo? I saw 5k mentioned as benchmark a few posts ago, that standard across industries? Also thanks thread, I not only had the confidence to hold firm on not naming a number but also stood my ground on not answering an interview question that shouldn't have really been asked regarding my family, which this thread has boosted tremendously. Just ask who to talk to at the company to book the travel and hotel and stuff. Get them to pay instead of reimbursement if possible. Relo just depends. Do you have a family? Own a house? etc. My last relo I just had me and my stuff. Two other guys were hired at the same time. one dude asked for $1K and got that (single and just his stuff), me at $10K, and the other dude had to move his wife and 2 kids and sell a house and he got $30K. All for the same job making basically the same money.
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Mar 3, 2021 16:23
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Hurt Whitey Maybe posted:It’s for a US tax role in the UK, so I’m hardly the first to relo from the US for a role like this. Not sure how they attract much talent with only £1600, so hopefully they come back with more, because it seems awfully low. As an update, they bumped me up to £2650. Not as much as I wanted, but living in London sounds tight and I got plenty of money coming in to deal with moving expenses (turns out cats do NOT fly cheap, they better be feeding her caviar in the dang carrier for the prices I’m being quoted). Still an extra £1,000 than I would have had otherwise, so always good to ask.
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Mar 3, 2021 18:42
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