|
Ferrinus posted:it never makes sense to compare socialists to tea partiers, or the DSA to the NRA, or whatever, because you're playing by fundamentally different rules when you oppose rather than support capital. actually winning the trust of and getting the goods for a base of by-default-checked-out workers is imperative for a leftist candidate, while a right wing movement can be as decorous or rowdy as it likes because its actual power base is a bunch of vampire lords lurking underground somewhere Imagining how contemporary socialists would react to a modern Huey Long is almost as fun as imagining how liberals would. "Populist rabble rousing and big angry gestures won't work because we'll disown anybody who tries that" is a tautology. Nobody knows if it'd work for the left because it's been like 70 years since anybody has tried, nowadays we've got a movement populated with people who will sit back and wring their hands and put the libs in charge just because some traitorous lib is whining about how mean people are being online, usually right after telling someone that what happens online doesn't matter. Fact is that VA is gonna be lucky enough to be one of the first states to have a socialist gubernatorial candidate in like a century and who does or doesn't vote for them, or tries to derail their campaign in the first place, will be telling. If we are to succeed we must present an outwardly unified front and our issues with one another kept internal and sorted out there. Anybody breaking with this to build clout or whine about process is guilty of liberalism at best or is a wrecker at worst
|
# ? Mar 5, 2021 19:50 |
|
|
# ? Jun 8, 2024 08:27 |
|
Ferrinus posted:it never makes sense to compare socialists to tea partiers, or the DSA to the NRA, or whatever, because you're playing by fundamentally different rules when you oppose rather than support capital. actually winning the trust of and getting the goods for a base of by-default-checked-out workers is imperative for a leftist candidate, while a right wing movement can be as decorous or rowdy as it likes because its actual power base is a bunch of vampire lords lurking underground somewhere it makes sense because a lot of dumbasses in this forum and elsewhere still have not realized that being a socialist doesn't mean being a turbo liberal and in fact they're diametrically opposed in every way. they literally cannot imagine anything besides 'the status quo, but I feel good after my team won'
|
# ? Mar 5, 2021 20:08 |
|
Ferrinus posted:actually winning the trust of and getting the goods for a base of by-default-checked-out workers is imperative for a leftist candidate what does that have to do with lee being nice to other delegates and lobbyists in the virginia legislature?
|
# ? Mar 5, 2021 20:20 |
|
WorkerThread posted:what does that have to do with lee being nice to other delegates and lobbyists in the virginia legislature? well, if it obstructs his ability to pass legislation, it means that the risk his voter base took in supporting a socialist candidate has amounted to exactly what all the finger-wagging liberals said it would, which is to say a lot of hot air and spirited performance but no real results
|
# ? Mar 5, 2021 20:46 |
|
Epic High Five posted:Imagining how contemporary socialists would react to a modern Huey Long is almost as fun as imagining how liberals would. "Populist rabble rousing and big angry gestures won't work because we'll disown anybody who tries that" is a tautology. Nobody knows if it'd work for the left because it's been like 70 years since anybody has tried, nowadays we've got a movement populated with people who will sit back and wring their hands and put the libs in charge just because some traitorous lib is whining about how mean people are being online, usually right after telling someone that what happens online doesn't matter. it's only rabble rousing if you actually, literally rouse the rabble. has that happened in virginia?
|
# ? Mar 5, 2021 21:04 |
|
Exactly. I know y'all are desperate to own the SuKKKlib DemonRats, but posting memes doesn't make Lee Carter a modern-day Huey Long. I would totally support him appealing directly to the people to engage in direct action, but he isn't doing that.
|
# ? Mar 5, 2021 21:19 |
|
sexpig by night posted:I think that 'be friends with everyone in the power class you're in or you're the problem' is dumb but Lee's poo poo with this was really loving stupid. Jumping the line with zero support could only end in failure, there was no way it wouldn't and he thought he could just post through it somehow. You're not a moron for inherently distrusting this kinda rhetoric because it is usually bad but this is less 'guys be friends politics is about being friends with everyone ' and more 'do loving basic elements of legislation if you're trying to solve problems through electoralism'. now i guess we move onto the phase where we blame lee carter for sabotaging the concept of repealing right to work for why it remains the law of the land for decades now there's just nothing that could be done it's too bad he's poisoned the well
|
# ? Mar 5, 2021 21:29 |
|
Halloween Jack posted:Exactly. I know y'all are desperate to own the SuKKKlib DemonRats, but posting memes doesn't make Lee Carter a modern-day Huey Long. I would totally support him appealing directly to the people to engage in direct action, but he isn't doing that. Oh I never claimed that, I'm claiming that we'd never have one because we can't even handle someone doing 1/100th as much without circling the wagons around the liberals and their bad faith stonewalling Ferrinus posted:it's only rabble rousing if you actually, literally rouse the rabble. has that happened in virginia? It's what should be happening, everybody who actually wants RTW killed should be using this is a cross to nail every one of the fuckers who voted against it to. What's the alternative? The people complaining about Lee can't even go so far as to say it would've passed had everybody just done everything right by doing all the same stuff that failed before AGAIN and that's supposed to be more convincing to me than forcing a vote to prove they're full of poo poo and working forward from there? Nobody's got any coherent path to getting this passed, not now and not before, but the only person who is expected to act ONLY when everything is already lined up is the socialist and wouldn't you know it lots of so-called leftists are happy to come out of the woodwork to heap poo poo on him for heightening contradictions like we all should be doing with any amount of power we have.
|
# ? Mar 5, 2021 21:31 |
|
democrats: we support repealing right to work carter: ok lets actually vote on it libs: how loving dare you you have to go through the proper channels and the right committees and gladhand the beltway and get the right organizers and
|
# ? Mar 5, 2021 21:32 |
|
Ferrinus posted:well, if it obstructs his ability to pass legislation, it means that the risk his voter base took in supporting a socialist candidate has amounted to exactly what all the finger-wagging liberals said it would, which is to say a lot of hot air and spirited performance but no real results
|
# ? Mar 5, 2021 21:34 |
|
The VA Dems literally recruited a Republican to run against him in a district that they'd ignored for decades lmao, he doesn't owe them poo poo nor should he accommodate their narratives they use to handwave away the fact that they do not in fact support the repeal of RTW
|
# ? Mar 5, 2021 21:36 |
|
lee carter was mean to me and jumped the line so i will no longer support repealing right to work
|
# ? Mar 5, 2021 21:42 |
|
comedyblissoption posted:democrats: we support repealing right to work
|
# ? Mar 5, 2021 21:47 |
|
comedyblissoption posted:lee carter was mean to me and jumped the line so i will no longer support repealing right to work I saw Lee Carter at a grocery store in Manassas yesterday. I told him how cool it was to meet him in person, but I didn’t want to be a douche and bother him and ask him for photos or anything. He said, “Oh, like you’re doing now?” I was taken aback, and all I could say was “Huh?” but he kept cutting me off and going “huh? huh? huh?” and closing his hand shut in front of my face. I walked away and continued with my shopping, and I heard him chuckle as I walked off. When I came to pay for my stuff up front I saw him trying to walk out the doors with like fifteen Milky Ways in his hands without paying. The girl at the counter was very nice about it and professional, and was like “Sir, you need to pay for those first.” At first he kept pretending to be tired and not hear her, but eventually turned back around and brought them to the counter. When she took one of the bars and started scanning it multiple times, he stopped her and told her to scan them each individually “to prevent any electrical infetterence,” and then turned around and winked at me. I don’t even think that’s a word. After she scanned each bar and put them in a bag and started to say the price, he kept interrupting her by yawning really loudly.
|
# ? Mar 5, 2021 21:48 |
|
He's actually a traitor to the cause because he didn't charge his power levels enough to unilaterally enact it himself.
|
# ? Mar 5, 2021 21:48 |
|
comedyblissoption posted:why are we blaming lee carter and not the democrats and their institutions for supporting maintaining right to work lmao. he's pointing out they are hypocrites full of poo poo. I know that the DSA sucks but it seems incredibly foolish to take someone from D&D's opinion on the matter at face value.
|
# ? Mar 5, 2021 21:50 |
|
Halloween Jack posted:Exactly. I know y'all are desperate to own the SuKKKlib DemonRats, but posting memes doesn't make Lee Carter a modern-day Huey Long. I would totally support him appealing directly to the people to engage in direct action, but he isn't doing that. no one said that, moron
|
# ? Mar 5, 2021 21:51 |
|
my impression was that electoral stuff necessitates either a degree of dealing with decorum bullshit in the service of passing good legislation, or having a strong-enough public movement to bulldoze obstructionist/rightwing freaks like whichever VA dems blocked RTW repeal. If you don't have the latter, and you disregard the former, i don't know what else you'd expect.
|
# ? Mar 5, 2021 22:00 |
|
Epic High Five posted:It's what should be happening, everybody who actually wants RTW killed should be using this is a cross to nail every one of the fuckers who voted against it to. What's the alternative? The people complaining about Lee can't even go so far as to say it would've passed had everybody just done everything right by doing all the same stuff that failed before AGAIN and that's supposed to be more convincing to me than forcing a vote to prove they're full of poo poo and working forward from there? it's what SHOULD be happening... but it isn't. the rabble remain unroused. it's like common discourse around occupy wall street. why did OWS come to nothing? well, it was brutally repressed by the state. okay, fine, but that still means it failed, because a successful organizational form would have been one that could withstand and adapt to state repression if all lee's good for is "heightening contradictions", and nothing's even come of that, then it seems like he was a waste of time comedyblissoption posted:right to work repeal would not pass if lee carter was nicer to democrats lmao where do you get these delusions that's not what i'm saying or what whoever was quoted on the last page or so said. the point is that carter seems to have delivered us nothing but a performance, and that performance has had no material effects. maybe a performance is literally all he or anyone in his position could ever do, which would tell me that devoting resources to his election at all was a mistake. but insofar as it wasn't, i would expect my elected representative to take their job seriously
|
# ? Mar 5, 2021 22:08 |
|
it appears your proposal is lee does nothing, hopes for a groundswell of support to magically materialize in spite of doing nothing, or gladhands the beltway
|
# ? Mar 5, 2021 22:08 |
|
slicing up eyeballs posted:my impression was that electoral stuff necessitates either a degree of dealing with decorum bullshit in the service of passing good legislation, or having a strong-enough public movement to bulldoze obstructionist/rightwing freaks like whichever VA dems blocked RTW repeal. If you don't have the latter, and you disregard the former, i don't know what else you'd expect. they've been failing to do it for years now and this time around it had even less support from VA Dem leadership, everybody seemed to know it was doomed. If they were mad about RTW failing to pass they would've voted on it, they're upset because they couldn't kill it quietly again and pretend they're working on it in earnest. You'd struggle to find a story about it in the leadup to this that wasn't talking about how it's uphill and now Northam and VA Dems are reluctant to support it, etc, well until Lee forced them to pass or kill it lol Why is it "how dare this radical commie do this to us?!?" this year instead of "aw shucks we did what we could, maybe next year" like before? If something is obviously going to die yet again on the altar of liberal handwringing, the best one can do is salvage the cause to wield it against your political enemies and give a less sadsack narrative to its real proponents. It's call harm reduction! Ferrinus posted:it's what SHOULD be happening... but it isn't. the rabble remain unroused. Because the left in the US is too committed to the contradictory impulses of anarchic organization and the obsession with electoralism, and is averse to the practice and theory of actually successful revolutionaries. But even if you're right, what were the options here? We get no performance or attempts at rallying which the libs didn't even have to bother to crush, and a dead bill, or we get those things in addition to a dead bill? Does anybody here seriously think that if Carter, who is despised by the state party, played nice that was going to have any impact on it passing or not?
|
# ? Mar 5, 2021 22:10 |
|
can someone opposed to carter getting a vote on rtw repeal propose what carter should have been doing instead because it appears to me people are mad that he tried to do like anything at all and committed the crime of exposing democrats as hypocrites
|
# ? Mar 5, 2021 22:13 |
|
per friendbot2000's post, it sounds like RTW might have always been unavoidable but in the course of protesting it carter sacrificed resources and relationships that might have made him an effective representative of the working class on other legislation
|
# ? Mar 5, 2021 22:13 |
|
Ferrinus posted:per friendbot2000's post, it sounds like RTW might have always been unavoidable but in the course of protesting it carter sacrificed resources and relationships that might have made him an effective representative of the working class on other legislation lol
|
# ? Mar 5, 2021 22:15 |
|
comedyblissoption posted:it appears your proposal is lee does nothing, hopes for a groundswell of support to magically materialize in spite of doing nothing, or gladhands the beltway we've tried nothing, and we're out of ideas
|
# ? Mar 5, 2021 22:16 |
|
Ferrinus posted:per friendbot2000's post, it sounds like RTW might have always been unavoidable but in the course of protesting it carter sacrificed resources and relationships that might have made him an effective representative of the working class on other legislation
|
# ? Mar 5, 2021 22:17 |
|
this thread continues to amaze me how are people allergic to getting votes on campaign promises for superpopular legislation lmao
|
# ? Mar 5, 2021 22:19 |
|
comedyblissoption posted:so socialists should not expose democrats as blatant hypocrites in the theory they could convince these same hypocritical democrats to support something else opposed to capital? here's the beginning of that post: "They won't and I will tell you why. Lee Carter hosed it. He has poo poo on every single one of his allies and made zero friends in the statehouse. He pulled some performative bullshit to get his Right to Work Repeal put at the head of the line in committee without getting cosigners and allies to sign on to it. It says "gently caress YOU" to your colleagues and caucus leadership and wins you no loving votes. He told some of his cosigners to basically gently caress themselves by doing this procedural committee wank-off. And guess what? That bill is dead now just so Lee Carter can say "YOU SEE, THEY ARE BAD SUCCLIBS". So the unions are pissed because unlike the terminally online, they understand how legislation gets made and Lee absolutely hosed it. Last year RTW Repeal was a really close vote! It could have happened this year if Lee Carter wasn't such a tiresome bore who NEVER STOPS POSTING. You know what is a great idea that is sure to win you friends and respect in the House? Otherizing all your colleagues you need to support your agenda by calling them "The electeds" and slamming them constantly on social media." from which i gather that carter ended up alienating plenty of people who did, in fact, oppose RTW along with him and at the very least might have formed the beginnings of a bloc of electeds who could join him in pushing for other policies that aided the working class
|
# ? Mar 5, 2021 22:20 |
|
comedyblissoption posted:this thread continues to amaze me how are people allergic to getting votes on campaign promises for superpopular legislation lmao if lee carter charged his power level by sititng there doing nothing and getting campaign bucks from middle class morons then he could have done A Socialism. unfortunately by trying to actually do anything at all, he has betrayed us
|
# ? Mar 5, 2021 22:20 |
|
Ferrinus posted:per friendbot2000's post, it sounds like RTW might have always been unavoidable but in the course of protesting it carter sacrificed resources and relationships that might have made him an effective representative of the working class on other legislation yeah this doesn't sound controversial to me, like if you're going to do the electoral thing then you've got to work with those freaks. if they wanted to feel good about the ~process~ of passing unequivocally good legislation, then part of your job as an elected official is to stroke their egos and play their stupid game, isn't it? Unless you've got the people power to "motivate" them to do the right thing regardless of their precious feelings. quote:so socialists should not expose democrats as blatant hypocrites in the theory they could convince these same hypocritical democrats to support something else opposed to capital? I do agree with this now that the process has played out. This outcome should absolutely be swung around as a reason the democrats in question are petty babies and dogshit legislators and they should be bullied relentlessly until they vote properly, but you could've still done that part if Lee hadn't done whatever procedural sin he's alleged to committed.
|
# ? Mar 5, 2021 22:36 |
|
slicing up eyeballs posted:yeah this doesn't sound controversial to me, like if you're going to do the electoral thing then you've got to work with those freaks. if they wanted to feel good about the ~process~ of passing unequivocally good legislation, then part of your job as an elected official is to stroke their egos and play their stupid game, isn't it? Unless you've got the people power to "motivate" them to do the right thing regardless of their precious feelings. The first part had already been tried and it was even more doomed this time, it's just good sense to move on to the 2nd one when the consensus is to just let it die quietly again. Coalition building and awareness raising are a key step but they are just a step and if you arent willing to take the next one well, that's where ya stay
|
# ? Mar 5, 2021 22:40 |
|
slicing up eyeballs posted:yeah this doesn't sound controversial to me, like if you're going to do the electoral thing then you've got to work with those freaks. if they wanted to feel good about the ~process~ of passing unequivocally good legislation, then part of your job as an elected official is to stroke their egos and play their stupid game, isn't it? Unless you've got the people power to "motivate" them to do the right thing regardless of their precious feelings.
|
# ? Mar 5, 2021 22:42 |
|
good: bad: sharp relief
|
# ? Mar 5, 2021 22:48 |
|
comedyblissoption posted:ok thank you for answering my question socialists should win office and then stroke the egos of elected officials and play their games if they do not have a popular movement behind them if you don't have a movement but you want to accomplish legislative stuff in office and that stuff depends on collaboration with ideological enemies yeah that's my assessment: you need either to have a movement to back you up or to deal with their games. Of course with the caveat that I'm not a chapter leader or political consultant or even particularly bright e: also just to reiterate, I fully support shaming democrats who get in the way of these votes or vote against good policies, I was just under the impression there was a way to have the vote held without pissing people off. slicing up eyeballs has issued a correction as of 23:00 on Mar 5, 2021 |
# ? Mar 5, 2021 22:49 |
|
|
# ? Mar 5, 2021 22:51 |
|
|
# ? Mar 5, 2021 23:25 |
|
i glanced at this thread and then googled about it and the characterization of what carter did seems totally at odds with what he did do https://www.princewilliamtimes.com/...468b390509.html quote:With his proposal to repeal Virginia’s right-to-work law bottled up in committee for the third year in a row, Del. Lee Carter tried unsuccessfully to force his Democratic colleagues to bring it to a floor vote Wednesday.
|
# ? Mar 5, 2021 23:33 |
|
tl;dr carter's great crime is getting 12 other democrats and a bunch of activists to try to force a vote on repealing right to work instead of letting it die in committee silently for the third straight year in a row
|
# ? Mar 5, 2021 23:42 |
|
|
# ? Mar 5, 2021 23:43 |
|
|
# ? Jun 8, 2024 08:27 |
|
the goal of socialists in a bourgeois parliament is to be the tip of the spear of the labor movement. they are there to fight against every other representative who is not on the side of the labor movement and expose those who pretend to be but really arent. they are not there to make friends, if anything they are specifically there to make enemies. it sounds like if you want to blame carter for anything its maybe not taking the rejection of the right to work appeal up as a call to action to fight back against the other reps. the idea of playing nice with the other legislators and engaging in backroom wheeling and dealing with them to cosign the bill is total bullshit and the exact opposite of everything a socialist elected official should be doing. the same thing happened with sawant in seattle and the tax amazon bill. it was passed by the city, then repealed by the same people who passed it once amazon made a big enough fuss. many people argued it was because sawant didnt play ball and was too belligerent, alienated too many "allies" who might be for it at another time or a compromised version, thats been the common reframe the whole time shes been in office. so the answer was to double down on the tax amazon bill, and organize a larger protest movement and now a new tax was passed last year which took even more money from amazon than the original tax. carter should have taken steps to use the fact that his right to work repeal was voted down as a way to mobilize even more support for it and help clarify the political situation, that yeah can maybe be viewed as a mistake. but putting the bill up in the first place was 100% the correct move. electoral politics arent a yes or no question for socialists, they absolutely should be something we engage in enthusiastically, but the goal has to be that we use elected office to expose the betrayals of corporate politicians and parties, and use the power of the office to build the rank and file labor and social justice movement. maybe if he had done that effectively it still wouldnt have led to the repeal, but it certainly would have helped move more people into struggle and maybe helped lead to the longer term organization of more people who would be willing to fight for the issue and others going forward.
|
# ? Mar 5, 2021 23:44 |