|
SlimGoodbody posted:Wanda did not have to go to jail because she is an absurdly powerful witch with badass magic powers. If I had magic super powers I would also not go to jail and you literally could not make me, even if you were mad at me. Hope this helps. I feel like there's been a lot of talk about Wanda's punishment when everything was all said and done, and I'm not sure why. Like obviously what happened was hosed up, but it's not like any of it was planed or she had any real control of the situation until the last episode. Plus, like you said, who in their right mind would volunteer to go to jail? Especially when you literally can warp reality as you see fit on accident.
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2021 06:20
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 16, 2024 07:41 |
|
|
Just because she mentally and physically violated an entire town’s worth of people doesn’t mean she wouldn’t be cool to have a beer with. E: there’s been plenty of comic stories where an unmatched powerful character realizes the atrocities or crimes they’ve committed and willingly surrenders to atone. Kingdom Come is one of the first books to come to mind. ruddiger fucked around with this message at 06:30 on Mar 6, 2021 |
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2021 06:26
|
|
|
ruddiger posted:Just because she mentally and physically violated an entire town’s worth of people doesn’t mean she wouldn’t be cool to have a beer with. And there's just as many where they do that then just walk away. House of M springs to mind immediately.
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2021 06:42
|
|
|
I know, and Wanda getting away with it at least tracks with the MCU as a whole so at least the show stayed on brand, I just wanted to point out that it’s not inconceivable that superpeople who don’t have to turn themselves in sometimes do. Not because they have to, but because it’s the right thing to do.
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2021 06:48
|
|
|
I don't care about putting Wanda in prison, that was never going to happen. Although, yeah, it's kinda iffy that Agatha ends up receiving the sort of poetic justice that might actually be better suited to Wanda in this story. Moreso than that, I'm talking about the catharsis of the show. It's been less than 24 hours and I'm sure to feel differently about that final episode after some time, but at this time it feels like everyone went through a lot of pain and torment just to end up with more pain and torment. Sure, Wanda got to give a proper goodbye to Vision in a very good scene, but in the end, she's still just alone and trauma-wracked and, after Ultron and then Lagos, this is the third time she's had to shoulder the burden of hurting a lot of people with there being no way to ever truly atone for it. What should we take away from all this? I don't think the show itself truly knows. Vince MechMahon posted:Plus the reason the guy looks just like X-Men Quicksilver is because the same actor plays both characters. The people who made the show knew it would get people talking about it. It's stunt casting and it worked on all of you except me, who called it as soon as he showed up. There's no deeper reason. ...And besides, "lol u nerds fell for our troll" is not a very cash money kinda vibe for showrunners to have.
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2021 07:43
|
|
|
Considering every government agency in the mcu seem to be trying to make super weapons pretty much all day every day, Wanda shouldn’t be anywhere near a jail. Nobody with superpowers should be. She would have been secreted away and turned into a battery for a shield/sword/hydra/etc. WMD within a month.
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2021 08:03
|
|
|
TwoPair posted:I thought it was pretty great, maybe I just didn't have my expectations as high as others. Like, I never expected any sort of X-Men/mutant/multiverse twists like a lot of people in this thread/the internet at large did, the most I thought would happen was a Dr. Strange cameo and the minute Agatha said she'd become more powerful than the Sorceror Supreme I was like "Well, I guess he's not showing" I think the only thing I was really disappointed about was White Vision just peacing out after getting all his memories restored. Like, I get it, it would kind of ruin the moment of Wanda having to undo the Hex and wipe out Hex-Vision and the kids if White Vision was right there to comfort her, but they didn't really give him a reason to go. Just give me a line about his memories conflicting with his programmed directive, or something about how having all of his memories doesn't make him love Wanda again, I don't know, all I know is that the way the show presents it it makes no sense for him to just leave everyone in danger from the military and a drat witch. Also maybe one of those post-credits scenes could show what he's doing? I wasnt expecting any twists. My thing was that I was really surprised by the earlier episodes wrangling with emotional devastation. And the ending...kinda ignored it? There was no real catharsis, because there was no real confrontation with what it meant to Wanda and Wanda successfully figuring out a way thru it. Like here's the order of events, perfect sitcom world where Wanda lives a simple live in the bleached suburbs, cracks form as Wanda and those around realize this is untenable, huge faults occur btw Wanda and those she loves as they realize what it costs to maintain it, innocents around them suffering, bad guy Agnes sucker punches her while emotionally trawling thru her hosed history.....battle in the sky as Agnes yells about the Darkhold. Lol look at that. Do you see the left turn. The show presented something in its initial episodes that ultimately wasnt satisfied in its last one. I'm pretty sure we even switched genres. Whatever. Maybe it's on me for thinking too highly of this show. All I know is that Wandavision rapidly shifted from a show I would breathlessly recommend to non comic fans, to one I might suggest is alright to dedicated Marvel fans looking to be completionists. I knew something was off when they started focusing outta the town. The writing was so flat and uninspired with the SWORD stuff that its the best guide post of where the show ends up.
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2021 12:36
|
|
|
BrianWilly posted:
Yup
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2021 12:38
|
|
|
Aphrodite posted:It was kind of dully safe as most MCU stuff is but I liked it. Yeah, it's kind of... depressing? Expected? When a glowing beam of power is shot into the sky in a superhero finale but it was fine.
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2021 14:32
|
|
|
Dawgstar posted:Yeah, it's kind of... depressing? Expected? When a glowing beam of power is shot into the sky in a superhero finale but it was fine. The beam was red this time.
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2021 14:35
|
|
|
And the hero was the one shooting it? E: I just like to think theres a producer whose like the guy obsessed with giant spiders, but his thing is beams I want more loving beams in this flick goddamit!
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2021 15:15
|
|
|
Shageletic posted:And the hero was the one shooting it? Feige keeps trying to explain Dragonball beam battles to the effects team, but he's so bad at it they've never gotten it right so he keeps trying until he gets his kamehameha.
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2021 17:43
|
|
|
BrianWilly posted:I don't care about putting Wanda in prison, that was never going to happen. Although, yeah, it's kinda iffy that Agatha ends up receiving the sort of poetic justice that might actually be better suited to Wanda in this story. Basically she learned her identity isn't dependent on other people. I think they ended up executing this message in a kinda messy way but self-actualization is one of the big skills you have to learn to move on from grief like this, so it makes sense. She's no longer defined by all the things and people she's lost, she's the goddamn Scarlet Witch and doesn't need anyone else to tell her who she is.
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2021 18:32
|
|
|
I like this new thing where if you have superpowers if you do something awful with them you don't need to go to jail Getting at tshirt made that says Zemo Was Right
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2021 18:43
|
|
|
site posted:I like this new thing where if you have superpowers if you do something awful with them you don't need to go to jail You may be shocked to learn that there are many of us who don't really believe that anyone should go to prison and that it's a terrible system that just makes things worse 
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2021 18:50
|
|
|
There's definitely room to speculate about what Agatha Harkness got up to in the past century-and-change of being an evil witch, but within the confines of the show Wanda for sure did more evil stuff than she did. What with Wanda being set up as the villain for future MCU films (almost definitely Doctor Strange 2) I wonder if that was intended or if the writers really didn't see Wanda magically tormenting a small town of people for weeks as that big of a deal in the end.
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2021 18:52
|
|
|
XboxPants posted:You may be shocked to learn that there are many of us who don't really believe that anyone should go to prison and that it's a terrible system that just makes things worse I'm all for prison and police reform but like I used to serve alcohol to a guy who ended up being a serial killer and I'm totally fine with that guy being in jail until he dies You wanna argue Wanda should be mandated to managed therapy that's fine, but letting her walk off scott free wasn't the answer to what she did site fucked around with this message at 18:55 on Mar 6, 2021 |
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2021 18:52
|
|
|
site posted:I'm all for prison and police reform but like I used to serve alcohol to a guy who ended up being a serial killer and I'm totally fine with that guy being in jail until he dies Instead of jail he should be in a mental health facility. And if Wanda doesn't want to go to jail how are they going to stop her and what would even be the benefit of trying?
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2021 18:56
|
|
|
Vince MechMahon posted:Instead of jail he should be in a mental health facility. And if Wanda doesn't want to go to jail how are they going to stop her and what would even be the benefit of trying? I don't really think of you murder a few dozen people being in a mental health facility is gonna be the answer but sure go for it, and the benefit of trying is to show that there are consequences for your actions. Having powers isn't a get away with anything card, and it's weird that that needs to be explained since that's like the basis of the entire conceit of superheroism. It may need extraordinary people to bring villains with abilities to justice, but it's the bringing them to justice that is the important part otherwise the entire concept falls apart
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2021 19:02
|
|
|
Truly the goal of restorative justice is to allow people with power to suffer no actual consequences for their actions so long as they feel sufficiently bad about it.
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2021 19:09
|
|
|
site posted:I don't really think of you murder a few dozen people being in a mental health facility is gonna be the answer but sure go for it, and the benefit of trying is to show that there are consequences for your actions. Having powers isn't a get away with anything card, and it's weird that that needs to be explained since that's like the basis of the entire conceit of superheroism. It may need extraordinary people to bring villains with abilities to justice, but it's the bringing them to justice that is the important part otherwise the entire concept falls apart Jail isn't the answer for anything. It's doesn't work, it's of no benefit to anyone, and people usually come out of it worse than that enter it. Capital punishment is not a solution, especially not when the people she would be turning herself into have previously had an underwater black site prison where they kept people indefinitely and without trial and more recently turned the corpse of her husband into a robot designed to kill her. Even without powers if you told me to go with people who did that you'd have to kill me before I went, if I had Wanda's powers I would also gently caress off because Monica and Jimmy being good people doesn't mean poo poo once she enters the system, and probably didn't want to have government agents vivisecting her to try and replicate her powers.
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2021 19:09
|
|
|
Did I advocate for the death penalty here? Did I mistype something? I even said if you want to argue for managed therapy that would be okay but you seem to be intent on pushing the maximum and saying it's okay to just leave without consequence because the maximum would be bad
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2021 19:13
|
|
|
I'm saying that it doesn't matter what you specifically are in favor of. From the perspective of that character in that moment it would make zero sense for her to go "Every interaction I've had with the US government has been them trying to illegally hold me, or desecrating my dead husband's corpse to turn into a weapon. But because this one guy is getting in trouble for it, I will gladly hand myself over to them as it's just one bad apple!" or whatever. She would not willingly turn herself over and has no reason to. She's also just demonstrated God like powers, which seem to be very obviously triggered by... Government people coming in and trying to arrest her. What possible reason would anyone there have to go "you're not going anywhere!" at that moment and try to stop her? She's almost certainly going to have people after her forever, and they have no chance of winning in that moment. Having either of these things happen would be bad storytelling because the characters would need to be idiots. I understand not liking the show for what it is, but not liking it because it's not another thing that would make no sense in the context of everything that came before it is really weird.
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2021 19:20
|
|
|
Just lmao at having the absolute infantile view that abolishing prisons means all prisons. Rapists and murderers and pedophiles need to go to jail, but they shouldn't be treated inhumane.
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2021 19:20
|
|
|
Mr Hootington posted:Just lmao at having the absolute infantile view that abolishing prisons means all prisons and not the current prison system needs reforming. The current prison system should be abolished, not reformed. That's why abolish and reform are different words that mean different things. No one is saying to put any of those people into society though, so I'm not sure who you're arguing with here other than a person you made up inside your head. E: here is a helpful article about what prison abolition actually is, https://www.themarshallproject.org/2019/06/13/what-do-abolitionists-really-want Vince MechMahon fucked around with this message at 19:26 on Mar 6, 2021 |
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2021 19:22
|
|
|
She just got done mind raping a whole town but she has no reason to turn herself in
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2021 19:23
|
|
|
site posted:She just got done mind raping a whole town but she has no reason to turn herself in Okay so you're just arguing in bad faith. Have a good day.
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2021 19:26
|
|
|
The serial killer belongs in a mental health facility, but if you have superpowers and mind control a whole town well then you don't even need therapy. Clearly it's me arguing in bad faith
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2021 19:28
|
|
|
XboxPants posted:Basically she learned her identity isn't dependent on other people other than whoever wrote the prophesy of Wanda being the goddamn Scarlet Witch and doesn't need anyone else to tell her who she is after Agnes told her who she actually was.
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2021 19:29
|
|
|
Yeah like, "I don't need you to tell me who I am" is a nice empowering soundbite for future gifs or whatever, but textually Wanda very much, very clearly, very absolutely did need Agatha -- or anyone else -- to tell her who she is. 
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2021 19:36
|
|
|
Vince MechMahon posted:The current prison system should be abolished, not reformed. That's why abolish and reform are different words that mean different things. No one is saying to put any of those people into society though, so I'm not sure who you're arguing with here other than a person you made up inside your head. Shut up Vince Edit: to the upcoming probation. I know what Vince is talking about and I know about the prison abolition movement. Vince just sucks all the time.
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2021 19:36
|
|
|
site posted:The serial killer belongs in a mental health facility, but if you have superpowers and mind control a whole town well then you don't even need therapy. Clearly it's me arguing in bad faith Wanda did bad things and should absolutely be sent somewhere outside of society at least until she can control her powers and dedicate the rest of her life to attempt to atone, because her actions, even though taken subconsciously at first, were still horrific. She also, as a character, has ZERO reason to trust the US government to do anything but try and kill her, detain her without trial, or turn her into a living weapon. The government agents there have just witnessed her literally bending reality to her will for several weeks and it only stopped cause she chose to. Most of the agents have just gotten their asses kicked or just recently stopped being a circus. Their leader has just been arrested for crimes against humanity. No one is really in charge. Who is going to try and arrest her right then and there and why? No one is saying that she does not need to do something to atone for her crimes, just that in the context of the story and those characters it makes no sense for that to happen at that time. I would not be surprised if her doing this poo poo is why Strange is after her. He would be much better equipped to deal with this as well, seeing as it's literally it's job.
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2021 19:37
|
|
|
Vince MechMahon posted:Wanda did bad things and should absolutely be sent somewhere outside of society at least until she can control her powers and dedicate the rest of her life to attempt to atone, because her actions, even though taken subconsciously at first, were still horrific. the thing is you say all that but in the story the person who is de facto in charge of sword after heyward gets arrested literally lets her walk off because "if she had her powers she would bring back her mom". that's the whole reason. it's not about the injustices of the system at all, it's just that monica sympathizes with wanda bringing back vision and absolves her of everything that happened because of her grief btw you may want to link something else because even that assumes that prisons will exist in some fashion site fucked around with this message at 19:44 on Mar 6, 2021 |
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2021 19:41
|
|
|
site posted:the thing is you say all that but in the story the person who is de facto in charge of sword after heyward gets arrested literally lets her walk off because "if she had her powers she would bring back her mom". that's the whole reason. it's not about the injustices of the system at all, it's just that monica sympathizes with wanda bringing back vision and absolves her of everything that happened because of her grief Sure, and I agree with that line being dumb. But just because Monica absolved her doesn't mean the viewers need to agree with that. Even as she does so, the entire town is still there staring at Wanda. If she's let totally off the hook for it in strange 2, then I'll agree that it's bad it didn't happen here or there. But I just don't think that's gonna happen.
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2021 19:44
|
|
|
Vince MechMahon posted:Sure, and I agree with that line being dumb. But just because Monica absolved her doesn't mean the viewers need to agree with that. so you're making up a justification
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2021 19:45
|
|
|
site posted:btw you may want to link something else because even that assumes that prisons will exist in some fashion  words mean nothing so abolishing is just reform.
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2021 19:46
|
|
|
site posted:so you're making up a justification Just because a character doesn't turn to the camera and say their motivation and reasoning outloud doesn't mean it's not there. I am done with this because it's a circular argument and you've already made up your mind here. There's no reason to keep going for either of us. Have a good one. E: Also on that article you're confusing it quoting reformists with them going over what abolitionists want. It does quote a few reformists, like Martin Horn, but it's in contrast to what abolitionists want. If you want to actually talk about this, DM me because this isn't really the place for it. Vince MechMahon fucked around with this message at 19:56 on Mar 6, 2021 |
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2021 19:51
|
|
|
Wanda goes into self imposed exile to heal and study so she can better control her powers, I don't know what a better solution would be here. Sticking her down a hole isn't going to work, there isn't really a therapy built for this, and just magicking everyone into forgetting would be a cop out. The resolution isn't great but it's probably the best there could be. Also this whole show has been about grief and moving past it, the idea that sometimes things just kind of end in an unsatisfactory way is central to that
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2021 19:53
|
|
|
Retro Futurist posted:Wanda goes into self imposed exile to heal and study so she can better control her powers, I don't know what a better solution would be here. Sticking her down a hole isn't going to work, there isn't really a therapy built for this, and just magicking everyone into forgetting would be a cop out. The resolution isn't great but it's probably the best there could be. going into exile with no human contact to read about dark magic isn't actually working through your grief in a healthy manner tho lol. there's isn't therapy built to help a person through a death of someone close to them?? sure sometimes things don't go smoothly when working through mental health problems, lord knows i've done that myself. but come on
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2021 19:56
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 16, 2024 07:41 |
|
|
I don't understand how people are upset that a former terrorist who spent the last several years in hiding didn't instantly turn herself into the authorities. Wanda's not a superhero because of some moral code, she just joined the Avengers during a life or death situation and stayed because she had nothing else in her life. It's not like we're talking about Steve Rogers here.
|
|
#
?
Mar 6, 2021 20:05
|
|