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Ouhei posted:I don’t know how anyone watches that finale and thinks that they’re actually setting Wanda up as a legit “big bad” or villain. The entire episode frames it as a sort of redemption/heroic act that she’s doing to correct the wrong she did. Wanda doesn't want to hurt people, and stops when she realizes what's happening, but she still does hurt them. And then we see her studying the bad book. It could be that they're setting up the Scarlet Witch as the villain separate from Wanda, a la Dark Phoenix, but it doesn't seem like Doctor Strange 2 is going to start with her acting heroically.
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Mar 6, 2021 18:10
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Ouhei posted:I don’t know how anyone watches that finale and thinks that they’re actually setting Wanda up as a legit “big bad” or villain. The entire episode frames it as a sort of redemption/heroic act that she’s doing to correct the wrong she did. She doesn't even offer as much as a sorry for basically imprisoning an entire town and taking them hostage. With her powers, she could have easily done something to make amends, but she just decides they're not even worth her time and walks away. This is basically places her squarely in the super villain category. It's really clear the FBI and Sword want to hold her accountable, but there isn't much they can do. The townsfolk are staring at her, waiting for an explanation, an apology, SOMETHING, but the minute she decides to just walk away without offering anything at all, she has made her intentions clear. Falling short of a super villain, she is clearly an anti-hero at best. This becomes even more clear when you compare her actions and reactions to that of Vision. Even Agatha calls her out on her cognitive dissonance. We have one character who defends what she did, and forgives her, but who is she to speak for the entire town? I was baffled by that entire exchange. We're supposed to assume she's good to go because one character vouches for her? What about the moral compasses of all the people she imprisoned? Arguably, they were affected the most and the so called moral compass was a spectator at best. Every single one of those townsfolk will be traumatized forever and some of them will inevitably spiral down a path of self-destruction and PTSD. You can't just dismiss that because she felt bad and decided to set them free. You can't just rob a bank and expect everyone to pat you on the back if you return some of the money. The townsfolks are damaged goods because of her, and nothing will ever be the same for them. I'm sure they will set up her redemption arc, but undoing an act of atrocity that you caused of your own volition by itself does not make anyone a hero. Especially if you don't even show any type of remorse to the people you hurt along the way. It's not to say I necessary believe you are wrong, or that I am right, but that's my opinionated take on her character. You'd asked why people take her to be a villain, and hopefully this explains why. Bioshuffle fucked around with this message at 18:28 on Mar 6, 2021 |
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Mar 6, 2021 18:17
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I had pet theories, but I'm (ostensibly) an adult so I don't hold my pre-suppositions against a show. It's like setting your own fun up to fail.
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Mar 6, 2021 18:25
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I think it's just "she was the main character of the show so she's good" in many people's minds and that's all there is to it. I don't actually know what disney is trying to do here but I suppose we'll find out eventually. IMHO she's a super-bad and needs to be stopped, but she was the main character so maybe disney totally thinks they wrote her as a good guy who did a bad thing but is redeemed now.
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Mar 6, 2021 18:38
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howe_sam posted:Honestly, Wiccan and Speed being Wanda's kind of sort of reincarnated kids is the least interesting thing about them and is mostly referenced when writers want to make "Boy aren't comics weird?" jokes, and if they are going to use the, for a movie or a show it might be for the best to excise that in the interest of streamlining the characters. I'm pretty much convinced that the main reason why Heinberg went with the convoluted reincarnation angle in the first place is because he was writing Wiccan as a self-insert character, hence the normal middle-class Jewish upbringing with normal human biological parents. It can go.
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Mar 6, 2021 18:51
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Bioshuffle posted:In my view, she crossed over into full on villain category. Here's why. Wanda is certainly closer to an anti-hero than being like Captain America or something, but ascribing villain generally assigning intent to her actions that the show has been very explicit in saying wasn’t there. She doesn’t address the town because she doesn’t think there’s anything she can say that would help them and she’s probably right. Generally speaking all super hero movies brush over the long term effects of the super heroes actions, mostly because they aren’t telling their story. Is that okay? I dunno, but it’s not like it’s incredibly unique to this show, even if it’s more personal. Her convo with Monica isn’t meant to have Monica speak for the town, it’s to show that the “good” forces ultimately view Wanda as an ally. She may be in the run from government forces, but it’s not like the Avengers are going to start hunting her down. redreader posted:I think it's just "she was the main character of the show so she's good" in many people's minds and that's all there is to it. I don't actually know what disney is trying to do here but I suppose we'll find out eventually. IMHO she's a super-bad and needs to be stopped, but she was the main character so maybe disney totally thinks they wrote her as a good guy who did a bad thing but is redeemed now. The show is trying to tell you how Wanda had absolutely no idea what she was, and because of that she caused incredible harm to thousands of people without meaning to. Through her grief and desire for a happy life she harmed others and ultimately came to be able to see what she was doing and stop. The story is an origin story for Scarlet Witch and now she’s on the road to figuring out her powers and purpose. She’s not supposed to be a perfect hero, because she doesn’t know what she is. I think it’s fine to think that they didn’t do the best job at it, or even that it’s not what you wanted, but I think it’s fairly obvious what they’re doing with this show.
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Mar 6, 2021 19:21
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Cat Army
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I remember thinking "this would be absolutely amazing if Rei says 'Yes'" when Kylo Ren was saying 'join me' in the second of the most recent star wars movies, but, they did the easy thing making her stay a good guy. This is probably the same deal. I see what you're saying about the nods to the audience that she's good, but, I don't like it!
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Mar 6, 2021 19:28
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Barry Convex posted:I'm pretty much convinced that the main reason why Heinberg went with the convoluted reincarnation angle in the first place is because he was writing Wiccan as a self-insert character, hence the normal middle-class Jewish upbringing with normal human biological parents. It can go. Especially considering that there's some textual backing for Billy's Judaism anyway; this was back in the halcyon days when they hadn't yet retconned Wanda's own Jewish heritage by way of Magneto, so if Billy and Tommy were going to be his family, the fact that they were also Jewish was a nice touch. redreader posted:I think it's just "she was the main character of the show so she's good" in many people's minds and that's all there is to it. I don't actually know what disney is trying to do here but I suppose we'll find out eventually. IMHO she's a super-bad and needs to be stopped, but she was the main character so maybe disney totally thinks they wrote her as a good guy who did a bad thing but is redeemed now.
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Mar 6, 2021 19:32
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New Falcon and Winter Soldier teaser: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdBUjYJ4-GQ
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Mar 6, 2021 19:58
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 Romantic workplace comedy.
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Mar 6, 2021 20:13
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Something that struck me watching it that scene where Wanda was talking to Monica at the end felt like every 'in universe' super hero movie ending of the past 10 years. Like the main characters would be walking onto a set of a movie and that's the exact scene that they'd be filming. It just felt so stiff and perfunctory.
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Mar 6, 2021 21:30
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Bioshuffle posted:In my view, she crossed over into full on villain category. Here's why. At a certain point sorry speeches or 'let me make it up to you! I can fix it! with more magic!' just seem self-serving. There isnt anything she can offer. Note that she did not have to walk of shame through the town and be judged by the people, she could have flown off at any time.
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Mar 6, 2021 21:36
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SpeakSlow posted:I had pet theories, but I'm (ostensibly) an adult so I don't hold my pre-suppositions against a show. It's like setting your own fun up to fail. I hate these "im such a big brain adult and you, the children, are entitled brats!" How dare people speculate and wish for something good only to just get plain oatmeal.
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Mar 6, 2021 21:40
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Spending weeks making assumptions and then being mad when none of them turn out to be true is how real adults do it.
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Mar 6, 2021 21:42
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I think it was fair to expect that after the show repeatedly drawing attention to the fact that Wanda is torturing everyone in the hex to the point where they just want to die, the consequences would be a little stronger than a quick shrug and walking away. e: like, the moral of the story ends up being 'the only story that matters is the one that's happening to you, and if other people suffer because of how you react to your story well then it sucks to be them I guess'.
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Mar 6, 2021 21:47
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ONE YEAR LATER posted:Spending weeks making assumptions and then being mad when none of them turn out to be true is how real adults do it. there are significant legitimate issues with the writing of this show that people have repeatedly brought up in this thread and repeatedly insisting that any and all criticism has to do with "expectations" is irritating and stupid
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Mar 6, 2021 21:51
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Marvels not gonna make Wanda bad and she's not bad. She's literally off alone studying a magic book like when Hulk hosed off alone after his movie.
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Mar 6, 2021 21:58
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They can still give her a redemption arc down the line. I really enjoyed the first half of the show when I had no idea what was going on. Once they laid all the cards on the table, I feel like the quality of the show took a nosedive. If they wanted to make her not bad, they would have had her apologize or shown remorse. As it stands, she terrorized an entire town and just ran away. Is Thanos considered a hero now because the people he erased came back? Wanda is basically Team Rocket at the end of the episode when they run away.
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Mar 6, 2021 22:06
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Bioshuffle posted:They can still give her a redemption arc down the line. Except they added a scene where they're confronted by a character who is as-close-to audience stand-in as the show gets, who tells them 'eh, I'd probably have done what you did'. The show doesn't think she's a villain or needs redemption.
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Mar 6, 2021 22:12
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I don't think she's bad, but she's not good. She's sort of a chaotic neutral with good intentions that have bad consequences that she refuses to take responsibility for. Which might lead to some redemption when she goes to rescue her kids. Or she just dethrones Dr. Strange and takes over the magicverse The finale felt so rushed it's part of why everyone is disappointed, the other part is it feels so much like a typical Marvel movie that it just doesn't sit right after 8 episodes of cool creative stuff.
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Mar 6, 2021 22:15
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redreader posted:I think it's just "she was the main character of the show so she's good" in many people's minds and that's all there is to it. Wanda isn't the bad guy, it's not that kind of show
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Mar 6, 2021 22:18
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massive spider posted:At a certain point sorry speeches or 'let me make it up to you! I can fix it! with more magic!' just seem self-serving. There isnt anything she can offer. She could maybe be in some kind of Scared Straight program where she helps young witches learn not to make the same mistakes she did or whatever, you know, act as a mentor to troubled magic youths. With appropriate supervision. Just... she's not really even in that stage of her rehabilitation process yet to take on that kind of challenge. After everything that just happened in Westview it's questionable whether she's even in control of her power or whether she might hurt someone again. She'd have to go spend some time studying and learning to control her self peacefully, like just the basics, learn to go through a day, get dressed, make some tea, all without any major incidents. Maybe ideally somewhere where there aren't even any other people around, just in case. That would be a lot to ask for, though.
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Mar 6, 2021 22:19
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Bioshuffle posted:They can still give her a redemption arc down the line. And that's kind of the rub. I can appreciate people who feel like Wanda should have done more, but to say she didn't show remorse is utterly ignoring everything leading up to that final scene to instead read things into the final lines or looks. Wanda spent weeks being confronted by what she was done and showing remorse and guilt. The last sitcom episode was gimmicked around her feeling completely guilty and depressed. There was a big scene in the finale where she's confronted by the towns people contradicting her rationalizations and IMMEDIATELY expresses regret decides to remove the Hex and free them. Then she unilaterally decides to sacrifice her family to free everyone. She's not the hero and she's not the victim, but she clearly showed a ton of remorse and guilt. ONE character expressed empathy towards her and people are treating that like the only thing that happened.
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Mar 6, 2021 22:20
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Alchenar posted:Except they added a scene where they're confronted by a character who is as-close-to audience stand-in as the show gets, who tells them 'eh, I'd probably have done what you did'. Monica isn't the surrogate. She's a genuine superhero. Jimmy and Darcy are more the surrogates.
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Mar 6, 2021 22:20
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Alchenar posted:Except they added a scene where they're confronted by a character who is as-close-to audience stand-in as the show gets, who tells them 'eh, I'd probably have done what you did'. I love that she's not a cookie cutter hero or villain though. I'm willing to compromise and say that she is a mixture of a villain with good intentions and a hero with an evil streak. Just the fact that there is no unanimous consensus on her hero/villain status points to this. Have people got into debates like this about any other character? If she was written to be one way or another, this discussion wouldn't be happening. She was clearly written to be both. But to compare her with a purely good hero like Superman? That's a reach too far. If this episode took place in the Superman universe, she would be a villain. live with fruit posted:Monica isn't the surrogate. She's a genuine superhero. Jimmy and Darcy are more the surrogates. The actual surrogate would be the townsfolk. She tells them to suck an egg. Bioshuffle fucked around with this message at 22:23 on Mar 6, 2021 |
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Mar 6, 2021 22:21
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Bioshuffle posted:I felt like the whole episode was just really poorly written. Apparently the comic book version of the character teeters the line between her being a villain and a hero? Oh definitely! Like I wouldn't be debating this so much if I thought there was no debate to be had. Like I love the little vicious smirk she has when she tells Agatha how she's going to sentence her to a lifetime of torture, and Agatha calls her out for being cruel. XboxPants fucked around with this message at 22:40 on Mar 6, 2021 |
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Mar 6, 2021 22:33
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Yeah, the left Wanda's status ambiguous. Sh did a terrible thing and while she didn't do it entirely purposely and she did undo it ultimately she also got dark with Agatha and less paid amends as went off to focus on her pain and problems. She could come of that better or she could come out of that worse. Realistically I doubt Marvel devoted all this time and effort in building this complicated and sympathetic character to turn her into a villain. But they did a whole movie that was about heroes fighting heroes so there's a lot of room for her to be a problem without being Thanos.
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Mar 6, 2021 22:38
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I figure she'll probably spend a good chunk of Strange 2 as the inciting antagonist as she recklessly tears through the multiverse trying to save her kids. Strange has to stop before she weakens the barriers between worlds to the point whatever big bad of the movie can get into the world.
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Mar 6, 2021 22:47
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Macdeo Lurjtux posted:I figure she'll probably spend a good chunk of Strange 2 as the inciting antagonist as she recklessly tears through the multiverse trying to save her kids. Strange has to stop before she weakens the barriers between worlds to the point whatever big bad of the movie can get into the world. Agatha said she's more powerful than Strange, which means he either goes to her for help, which would be weird in his own movie, or he has to stop her in MoM.
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Mar 6, 2021 22:54
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There's a lot of really obvious ways you can get Wanda involved in the Strange movie. Strange can look into all this as people thought he might in the show. Mordo could seek to eliminate Wanda as part of his anti-magic agenda. Wanda could try something crazy and dangerous with the Darkhold and draw Strange to her. Wanda could hit a wall and seek out more information/help from Strange or Wong's library. However it happens I agree Wanda will be at odds for Strange for the first half of the film and then they'll find common ground and fight the true villain.
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Mar 6, 2021 22:57
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STAC Goat posted:Yeah, the left Wanda's status ambiguous. She did a terrible thing and while she didn't do it entirely purposely and she did undo it ultimately she also got dark with Agatha and less paid amends as went off to focus on her pain and problems. She could come of that better or she could come out of that worse. Realistically I doubt Marvel devoted all this time and effort in building this complicated and sympathetic character to turn her into a villain. But they did a whole movie that was about heroes fighting heroes so there's a lot of room for her to be a problem without being Thanos. Since Tony is dead, Wanda now fills in the role of good guy who keeps making GBS threads all over people and is too powerful/rich to have anybody do anything about it but uses that power to help not make the world explode occasionally. She's like that bit in Futurama where they become super heroes and do slightly less property damage than they save thus being a slight net gain.
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Mar 6, 2021 23:32
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I liked how they played like that deliveryman was gonna be someone important and lol nope he's just a very tired delivery guy.
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Mar 6, 2021 23:37
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Desperado Bones posted:They could go not that way and be just like: Find out in the new -insert character name- only in theaters 2024!! Doesn't Strange say at one point that the job of the Sorcerer Supreme is to protect the entire Earth Dimension from mystical threats? Like, the whole loving universe plus some extra weird poo poo thrown in. Isn't it possible/probably that Strange and the other sorcerers are busy with other poo poo and that the unpleasant (but not currently fatal) thing happening in New Jersey is kind of small ball compared to, perhaps, stopping not-Cthulhu from eating a planet with billions of sentient people on it?
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Mar 6, 2021 23:38
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Everyone posted:Doesn't Strange say at one point that the job of the Sorcerer Supreme is to protect the entire Earth Dimension from mystical threats? Like, the whole loving universe plus some extra weird poo poo thrown in. Isn't it possible/probably that Strange and the other sorcerers are busy with other poo poo and that the unpleasant (but not currently fatal) thing happening in New Jersey is kind of small ball compared to, perhaps, stopping not-Cthulhu from eating a planet with billions of sentient people on it? Yeah, the whole "why isn't X here" kind of has the fundamental problem of being very myopic. Our attention is on Westview and WandaVision. That doesn't mean there's not all kinds of other important and freaky poo poo happening elsewhere or the individual characters might not all have their own reasons to be out of touch.
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Mar 6, 2021 23:42
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Lastdancer posted:I liked how they played like that deliveryman was gonna be someone important and lol nope he's just a very tired delivery guy. The part I liked best about that was the two episodes ago where he shows up right after Monica confronts Wanda. The prop designer decided to recreate the box from the end of Se7en and put it prominently in the pile.
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Mar 6, 2021 23:45
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RBX posted:Marvels not gonna make Wanda bad and she's not bad. She's literally off alone studying a magic book like when Hulk hosed off alone after his movie. The problem is the book she's reading 24/7
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Mar 6, 2021 23:51
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STAC Goat posted:Yeah, the whole "why isn't X here" kind of has the fundamental problem of being very myopic. Our attention is on Westview and WandaVision. That doesn't mean there's not all kinds of other important and freaky poo poo happening elsewhere or the individual characters might not all have their own reasons to be out of touch. After no one showed up to help Tony and Rhodey save the president from public execution, I think we just gotta roll with it.
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Mar 6, 2021 23:52
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Everyone posted:Doesn't Strange say at one point that the job of the Sorcerer Supreme is to protect the entire Earth Dimension from mystical threats? Like, the whole loving universe plus some extra weird poo poo thrown in. Isn't it possible/probably that Strange and the other sorcerers are busy with other poo poo and that the unpleasant (but not currently fatal) thing happening in New Jersey is kind of small ball compared to, perhaps, stopping not-Cthulhu from eating a planet with billions of sentient people on it? That's what I'm trying to get. I don't know what's the time line for the movie, but if it's right after Wandavision, or a few weeks after the happening in Westview, then he is freshly coming back from the blip. poo poo could be a mess on his side. I dunno. People are just wondering why that hasn't been even a blip on their radar, when Loki was like super alert serious business, but I guess were are gonna find out during the movie.  I'm not angry that my dumb and mostly joke theories didn't come true. It's just that the writing for this episode was kinda bad in some parts.
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Mar 6, 2021 23:58
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Macdeo Lurjtux posted:The part I liked best about that was the two episodes ago where he shows up right after Monica confronts Wanda. The prop designer decided to recreate the box from the end of Se7en and put it prominently in the pile.
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Mar 7, 2021 00:00
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Desperado Bones posted:I'm not angry that my dumb and mostly joke theories didn't come true. It's just that the writing for this episode was kinda bad in some parts.
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Mar 7, 2021 00:04
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