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If anything, that'd be even weirder because Iwai has a son who seems to be kinda close to the MC's age
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Mar 8, 2021 02:03
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Lord_Magmar posted:That’s certainly not the moral I read to those character arcs. I read it’s okay to be who you are and shutting others out from fear of their opinions only ends up hurting you. Sometimes it is a form of conformity (Yukiko, who has issues with the expectation she’ll manage the inn even if she loves the people there) and sometimes it is simply being proud of who you are enough to not hide it (Kanji, who’s hyper masculine brute/delinquent deal is to hide the fact he loves to knit and sew, or the mess with Naoto). Eh, I kinda see their point? 5 out of 7 of your party members story ends up with them choosing to conform. Yukiko and Rise both decide to go back to the inn/idol business instead of choosing to rebel like they planned, both Kanji and Naoto use some tropes traditionally associated with being LGBT but since Naoto identifies as female, it means both that she's cis in text and Kanji only shows attraction to a woman in canon, and Kanji ditches his punk look and Naoto starts to dress more femininely in the epilogue and spinoffs, and Chie's entire gimmick is 'tomboy who wants to be more feminine'. Kanji and Naoto both still kind of rebel because Kanji likes to sew and Naoto is still a detective, to be fair. I don't think any of those individually are a problem, but when taken together, almost all of your party members are happier after they start to conform in some way.
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Mar 8, 2021 02:06
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Rise chooses to continue as an idol because she likes doing it. Naoto's actual problem is that no one takes her seriously as a detective because a) she's a girl and b) she's 15. Kanji's actual problem is that he's overcompensating in his masculinity and his epilogue look represents him bringing it down to a healthy level (but he's naturally a tough guy, just not the kind that wears leather and dyes their hair all the time.)
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Mar 8, 2021 02:09
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Also isn’t the actual resolution of Chie’s deal that she doesn’t have to be more girly, and ultimately decides she wants to be a police officer? Like, she’s doing the thing in reverse, she tries to be more girly but ends up realising she doesn’t need to do so. Kanji tries to be hyper-masculine and realised he doesn’t need to do so. So on and so forth. The whole deal is your party members (and most of the social links) are trying to be something they’re not either because society expects them to do so, or because they’re terrified that the real them will be mocked etc.
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Mar 8, 2021 02:16
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I don't really read Kanji ditching his punk look to be him conforming, necessarily. The punk look was an affectation, part of him playing up his tough guy side to overcompensate for being into "girly" things. It wasn't that the punk look was how Kanji really wanted to dress and in the end he dressed in a more conventional way. He's sort of nonconforming either way, really--either he's a dangerous delinquent, or he's a tough guy who likes to wear nice clothes and sew cute things.
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Mar 8, 2021 02:34
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A huge part of Kanji's character is that the punk affectation is him pigeonholing himself as a reaction to being mocked for having "feminine" interests. That is the "role" society would rather he put himself into. His decision to break himself out of that box is the opposite of him staying the way society would prefer him to be, counterintuitive as it may seem.
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Mar 8, 2021 02:39
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Yes, and I'm saying that having Naoto and Kanji's real problems by societal expectations of gender roles despite using LGBT imagery in their dungeons is kinda weird. Hell, Naoto's imagery isn't even her dungeon, since that's focused on her age, it just brings up 'btw I'm a girl' at the end with her shadow. Maybe I'm just annoyed at Rise in general because I generally liked the Rise before her dungeon more than the Rise after he dungeon (wow, a game that brings up how lovely and exhausting being fake all the time can be! Oh, wait, no, now Rise's acting as bubbly and cheerful as her stage persona and has a crush on the protagonist, the tired Rise from beforehand is gone now), but both Yukiko and Rise doing the same basic arc in their social link feels off to me. Lord_Magmar posted:The whole deal is your party members (and most of the social links) are trying to be something they’re not either because society expects them to do so, or because they’re terrified that the real them will be mocked etc. I get this is someone from a decade later in another continent, but it's really weird how the person most of your party members is pretending to be is socially non-conforming and the person they actually are conforms a lot more. Like, maybe I have spin-off Chie in my head over actual epilogue Chie and I'm wrong? But Kanji goes from tough-looking possibly gay dude to a more normal looking person who is just into sewing and has no mention of his sexuality and Naoto goes from an androgynous figure to someone obviously a woman.
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Mar 8, 2021 02:46
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I agree that it's weird that it uses LGBT imagery, but that's not a problem with the epilogue, it's a problem with Persona 4. The epilogue is just consistent with the prior characterization.
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Mar 8, 2021 02:48
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Most of those arcs are pretty much the same idea: it's easier to stomach an option when it's a choice, rather than when it's viewed as a 'but thou must' option. Which is honestly pretty fitting for most teenagers; make them do something and they'll hate it, give them the option and they'll either figure it out or make some mistakes along the way and figure it out. Like Yukiko and Rise would most likely have been free to do non inn/idol things if they really wanted, they just made the choice that they want to do it because they love it actually. Naoto's a weird one because half the reason she dressed and spoke more masculine was because of the way her industry views females. Once she owned her femininity then she just let her talent speak for itself. Her and Kanji just decide to stop letting society's expectations affect what they like to do. If Naoto wants to dress more feminine and still kick butt as a detective, she just stopped letting her belief of what society thinks shame herself for it. But I agree that 'tofu Rise' was more interesting than 'peppy idol Rise'.
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Mar 8, 2021 02:52
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Naoto's weird because the age angle is completely dropped after the boss fight, despite that probably being the more pressing issue as to why the Inaba PD doesn't like her.
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Mar 8, 2021 02:53
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the issue is we never actually see naoto be shamed or mocked for being a female detective, we just get 'she presents masculine' 'oh she presents feminine now'. the inaba cops grumble about her because she's a city kid sent to clean up their mess. they dont even know shes a girl. and even if she was an adult i feel like the inaba cops would still complain about her, since they're chafing at the idea that the prefecture chiefs think they cant handle the case. maybe her s. link could have started with her persenting femininely and then getting mocked for it and navigating that, rather than it being a detective conan puzzle where the reward is sex with her in a schoolgirl outfit. just a thought
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Mar 8, 2021 02:54
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I never said it was particularly well handled, simply the deal with Persona 4 is that it's not really about conforming so much as it is about expectations and how you can grate against or fall into them over your own personal desires. Naoto and Chie aren't particularly conforming to traditional expectations after they work their issues out (Chie remains a spunky tomboy who likes fighting and wants to be a cop instead of something more feminine, Naoto remains a detective and gives zero shits about what the predominantly male profession thinks of her). Kanji may stop being a punk, but he remains interested in sewing and cute animals and other non-masculine things because that's the person he was that he was afraid people would mock, the hyper masculine punk thing is a way to stop people from making fun of his non-masculine interests (which as a 15 year old boy he also conflates with people thinking he's gay when he's probably still working that out himself, he seems mostly into intelligence considering Naoto being smart and cool is what flusters him the most). Yosuke realises that he actually kind of likes the hokey small town instead of the expectation that he should want to go back to the city. Rise and Yukiko get it the worst because their respective issues are treated awkwardly, Yukiko loves every part of the inn but hates that nobody expects her to have choices in life, Rise likes performing for people and making them happy but hates the constant bullshit that comes with it, their discover is that the second part is something they can ignore overcome for the first part, provided they have good support networks and friends. Rise becomes bubbly and happy again because you're there to help her avoid burnout. I do agree that Naoto probably could've gotten a better S-Link around dealing with the fallout of her determining to present herself as herself to her colleagues, which absolutely should bring up the age thing as well. Notably, whilst Kanji and Ryuji are kind of the same mold, Ryuji continues to dye his hair because he actually likes having the dyed hair and is in fact kind of a punk instead of simply putting it on to avoid people questioning his masculinity. In general this is my issue with Ann and Makoto in fact, for a story about rebellion their s-links aren't particularly rebellious and kind of lose out on the stuff they resolve to do in their awakening. Carmen and Ann literally talk about never holding anything back ever again (and then Ann proceeds to hold plenty back socially) whilst Makoto talks about finding her own justice and not letting others control her life (and promptly has a social link about learning how to better listen to others which whilst reasonable feels weird plus she definitely loses sight of her own ideals of justice). Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 03:00 on Mar 8, 2021 |
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Mar 8, 2021 02:54
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The LGBT imagery in Kanji's dungeon is tone-deaf, though it does make sense for Kanji. It's his internalized homophobia manifesting. And I don't think it's a red herring with Kanji, either. There's at least one conversation after his dungeon where he implies that he's not sure what his sexuality is and he's still figuring it out, which is pretty reasonable for a teenager who just went through what he went through. To a degree, Kanji conforms less in the prologue. He's still a big strong guy but he's embraced his interest in sewing and clothes rather than pretending to be a punk. I think the fact that he visually goes from "cool tough punk" to "kinda nerdy kid" leads some people to read that as him just giving up and conforming, but the issue was never that he wants to be a tough punk and society doesn't accept it--it's the opposite.
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Mar 8, 2021 02:57
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As someone who relates to Yosuke's issues a lot (being forced to move and having their old friends slowly ditch them), I do like how his arc was handled. It's kinda interesting that he never actually expresses a desire to return to the city, just 'oh well, this is my lot in life'. SL Yosuke is actually pretty great and it's an absolute shame it doesn't carry over to the main story. Ryuji too to an extent but the most Ryuji did was get a little obnoxious, Yosuke was just homophobic.
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Mar 8, 2021 02:57
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Harrow posted:The LGBT imagery in Kanji's dungeon is tone-deaf, though it does make sense for Kanji. It's his internalized homophobia manifesting. And I don't think it's a red herring with Kanji, either. There's at least one conversation after his dungeon where he implies that he's not sure what his sexuality is and he's still figuring it out, which is pretty reasonable for a teenager who just went through what he went through. Yeah even if he dresses like a nerd Kanji is still decently buff, I imagine a nerd yelling and punching out biker gangs is cooler than another jock at the gym.
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Mar 8, 2021 02:58
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Eh, fair enough. Maybe it's just annoyance at the way P5 handles rebellion bleeding over to P4.
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Mar 8, 2021 02:59
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Kanji almost certainly still gets into fights with biker gangs, he just gives them sweet Hell Biker plushies afterward.
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Mar 8, 2021 03:00
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Hellioning posted:Eh, fair enough. Maybe it's just annoyance at the way P5 handles rebellion bleeding over to P4. Oh absolutely there's an issue now that we've gotten the actual game about rebellion and it's a bit toothless, so looking back at Persona 4 with the context of Persona 5 kind of makes it look a little worse how easily everyone's issues appear to be solved by conforming to society in P4 (even if that's not the message or the point and you can if you read find out that's not true). Again Makoto and Ann both kind of suck outside the dungeons to me because they fall back into their more conformative personalities than the cool badasses they get to be as thieves, but that's arguably every party member in Persona 5 because in the real world you obviously don't have incredibly rad super powers to help support your rebellious natures. Yusuke is the only one who dodges this because Yusuke is always, 100%, Yusuke Kitigawa. Oh also Futaba, but Futaba doesn't really interact with society to begin with so she has nothing to conform to. Lord_Magmar fucked around with this message at 03:04 on Mar 8, 2021 |
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Mar 8, 2021 03:02
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P5S does a really good job of giving the P5 crew some real 'look at my development' time. Like both Royal and Strikers are really good post original P5 content but I think I'm softly fonder of Strikers even if Royal has a better 'this is what I'm gonna do in my future' story.
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Mar 8, 2021 03:10
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At 135 hours I have finished P5R. The third semester palace and story is better than anything else in the game I think? Kamoshida’s storyline is the only one that comes close. I’m still a little confused behind the uh, mechanics of the last palace but it was still great. One question I did have: is Azathoth/Adam Kadmon some kind of malevolent thing that just wants to do Yadabaoth But Nice, or is it really just Maruki’s persona? Its weird voice and screaming about how it would lead the world made me unsure. Anyway, it was awesome. Also third semester Akechi is great. However his black mask outfit looks insanely stupid and I wish I could have just put him back in his Crow outfit.
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Mar 8, 2021 05:10
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Harrow posted:The LGBT imagery in Kanji's dungeon is tone-deaf, though it does make sense for Kanji. It's his internalized homophobia manifesting. And I don't think it's a red herring with Kanji, either. There's at least one conversation after his dungeon where he implies that he's not sure what his sexuality is and he's still figuring it out, which is pretty reasonable for a teenager who just went through what he went through. I think you're missing what the tv world is: We learn that the TV world isn't actually what the person themselves think but what people think of them. In Knaji's case it was a bath house because people thought he was being a tough guy to cover up how he was gay. Like his dad who thought so when he discovered Kanji liked sewing. Or how Saki's dungeon was the liquor store because everyone thought she was working at Junes to help her family when in actuality she's earning extra money to escape Inaba. Rise's dungeon is a strip club because everyone thinks she's hyper sexual. Our first encounter with her is on the train where she's doing the strip tease for calorie magic. Yukiko is a castle looking for a knight to save her like all of her suitors want to be.
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Mar 8, 2021 05:16
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Badger of Basra posted:At 135 hours I have finished P5R. The third semester palace and story is better than anything else in the game I think? Kamoshida’s storyline is the only one that comes close. Answering the question It's definitely Maruki's Persona. But much like Arsene --> Satanael against Yaldabaoth Maruki/Azathoth/Adam Kadmon become empowered by the masses, plus Maruki is in of himself dangerously delusional with a martyr complex and a god complex, so you get Adam Kadmon roaring Maruki's inner message and beliefs that only he can save the world with his perfect world transformation.
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Mar 8, 2021 05:18
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Another question: the whole thing with Yoshizawa’s phone not working. Was that setup just so we wouldn’t be told immediately it was Maruki’s palace when we entered? Was it that she thought her phone was messed up because it kept saying Sumire instead of Kasumi?
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Mar 8, 2021 05:20
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Badger of Basra posted:Another question: the whole thing with Yoshizawa’s phone not working. Was that setup just so we wouldn’t be told immediately it was Maruki’s palace when we entered? Was it that she thought her phone was messed up because it kept saying Sumire instead of Kasumi? I think it's probably Maruki's palace and Maruki knowing about the Phantom Thieves and so trying to hide from them until he can confront them properly with proof of his world view.
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Mar 8, 2021 05:21
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HootTheOwl posted:I think you're missing what the tv world is: It's been a while since I played all the way through but yeah that does make sense. I'm also considering their Shadows, though, which are born from within themselves and not from outside perceptions, and Kanji's is an over-the-top gay stereotype that seems to reflect his internalized homophobia just as much as the dungeon reflects Inaba's.
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Mar 8, 2021 05:32
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HootTheOwl posted:I think you're missing what the tv world is: Explain Nanako's 
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Mar 8, 2021 05:38
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ApplesandOranges posted:Explain Nanako's Isn't it that Taro Namatame is influencing the dungeon too. Hence it being heaven-like, because nobody really thinks about him but he thinks he's saving the people he throws into the TV, whilst Nanako is looking for her dead mother. The dungeons form because people are thinking of the person and wanting to know more about them, but the actual contents is as much the person inside as it is the people outside. After all the entire point of P4 Dungeons is not just defining people or judging people for what you see. You have to dig deeper and learn the real person, which the fog inhibits because it's all about being solitary and alone and not ever bothering to make connections with others because of fear, or judgement, or hatred, or so on and so forth. It's literally why the protagonist is the successful Izanagi, he sees the darkest parts of people (his team-mates shadows) and accepts them anyway, and helps them accept themselves, all the way up to the actual literal Izanagi (Marie) and the final boss. He even accepts Adachi, as strange as that is to say.
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Mar 8, 2021 05:42
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HootTheOwl posted:I think you're missing what the tv world is: I don't think that holds up to scrutiny, namely Kubo was a complete unknown to the public when he got thrown in, and the 8-bit dungeon is still a perfect reflection of him. The collective subconscious is what determines who shows up when its all fuzzy, but once they get thrown in it starts pulling stuff from the person in question. Also I didn't get the feeling that Kanji's dad was ashamed of his sewing, but maybe it's just me 
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Mar 8, 2021 05:43
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Apparently Atlus have put some feelers out for Persona (and SMT) remakes, ports and spinoffs with a questionnaire on the Japanese site. It's a fairly broad catch all type of questionnaire so I wouldn't put any bets down yet but they did include every single Persona and SMT game (including subseries) somewhere so it's nice to know the older stuff is still somewhere on their radar even if its low priority.
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Mar 8, 2021 08:45
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Isn't the point that Naoto's dungeon focused on her age kinda a plot point? Like it had a "twist" that turned out the midnight channel are what people thought of those characters and it turned out that no one gives a crap about her gender which she thought was the problem and more about the fact that she's 15. That's why there's a disconnect about her worries and the whole baby scientist shadow self. Edit: oops, should have read the thread. Anyway, the twist always seemed a bit unnecessary.
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Mar 8, 2021 08:56
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Badger of Basra posted:Just started the third semester and it's already so good. Huh, interesting. Considering how there are several things that P5 takes inspiration from P2, I can't help but feel that this is another one of them.
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Mar 8, 2021 09:08
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RillAkBea posted:Apparently Atlus have put some feelers out for Persona (and SMT) remakes, ports and spinoffs with a questionnaire on the Japanese site. It's a fairly broad catch all type of questionnaire so I wouldn't put any bets down yet but they did include every single Persona and SMT game (including subseries) somewhere so it's nice to know the older stuff is still somewhere on their radar even if its low priority. They did that last year as well. Just like then it could mean something but it could also mean nothing. I don’t think we will know anything until closer to Nocturnes release and subsequent sales at the soonest
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Mar 8, 2021 13:25
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ApplesandOranges posted:Explain Nanako's At the time of her kidnapping she's appeared on TV (via quote) as a little girl the local politician says we need to protect from the fog. At the time of her kidnapping the people who are thinking about her are: Namatame who thinks she's going to be saved, and the Investigation Team who all know she's in mortal danager, maybe even dead. Same with Dojima, but he also (as we learn through his social link) thinks about her in context of her mother. The protagonist also has heaven on the brain because previous conversations with Nanako have been about what happens when people die. So a safe place, where people die, as depicted for children: Bright Rainbow Heaven. Alacron posted:I don't think that holds up to scrutiny, namely Kubo was a complete unknown to the public when he got thrown in, and the 8-bit dungeon is still a perfect reflection of him. The collective subconscious is what determines who shows up when its all fuzzy, but once they get thrown in it starts pulling stuff from the person in question. I also thought there was a line about his dad finding out and telling him to be strong?
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Mar 8, 2021 14:41
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Daredevil is an incredible song, holy poo poo
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Mar 9, 2021 14:53
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Ok so I made it to the first dungeon in P4G and holy moly are the shadows a lot tougher than they were in P5R. On normal in P5R I died under a dozen times my entire 135 hour playthrough. Already in P4G (on normal) I’ve seen the “game over” screen five times. In particular one enemy has a nasty finishing move where it explodes before it does and, because you don’t get a chance to guard, can easily wipe the whole party out. I read a few guides and the advice seems to be the old school JRPG standard of “gotta grind” with a recommended level of 15(!) for the fight against shadow yukiko (I am currently level 7) Besides grinding, anyone got tips for the early game? I do love the shuffle card system way better than the negotiations from Persona 5, so getting additional Persona’s to use for fusions seems easier.
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Mar 9, 2021 15:02
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I think I was probably level 10 or 11 for that boss on my latest playthrough, something like that. One thing that really helps on that boss is fusing a persona with Media. Also, the boss is going to use a ton of fire attacks, and that's Chie's weakness, so remember that if a character is guarding, they cover their weakness. I don't remember exactly what the boss's pattern is but I think its big fire attack is predictable so you can have Chie guard when it's coming up. One nice thing in Golden's PC version is that you can change the difficulty at any time on a pretty granular level. You can even turn up EXP/money gain without adjusting the rest of the difficulty if you've gotten to the end of the dungeon and feel like you need a couple more levels before you take on the boss or things like that.
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Mar 9, 2021 15:12
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I can only imagine that guides probably recommend level 15 for that fight because the boss is level 15. That's unreasonably high, though, so don't worry about it. In Golden in particular, they have a lot more HP than you'd expect for so early but have a weakness to ___Ice___ added to compensate.
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Mar 9, 2021 15:17
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A lot of online guides for RPGs just recommend weirdly high levels for things that you generally don't need if you just work with the systems the game provides you.
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Mar 9, 2021 15:19
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Harrow posted:I think I was probably level 10 or 11 for that boss on my latest playthrough, something like that. One thing that really helps on that boss is fusing a persona with Media. wow that is a game-changer. Yea I'm outside the room where I assume the main boss is, as the game is telling me "hey there is something big and bad behind this door are you ready??" I'll turn up the EXP and grind a little. Not to level 15, but probably closer to 10-12. One habit I got into from P5 is diving into dungeons as soon as they become available, so I got plenty of time and I may even leave and buy more items/ fuse some Personas before I take on the final boss.
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Mar 9, 2021 15:26
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Solaris 2.0 posted:wow that is a game-changer. Yea I'm outside the room where I assume the main boss is, as the game is telling me "hey there is something big and bad behind this door are you ready??" What floor are you on? There are minibosses as well that I think you get that warning for.
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Mar 9, 2021 15:31
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