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Is Heroic Hollywood another garbage-tier clickbait rag like Screen Rant?
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Mar 8, 2021 21:28
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Its Rinaldo posted:I don't but am surprised by how mad people get when I say "wow Wanda just walks out that's hosed up" I didn't think it was that controversial a take Part of the subtext of the controversy is that a lot of people view this as a gender issue, too, though it's hard to bring this up without things turning into a slap fight. It's an extremely common trope to have a fantasy story about the woman who can't handle her emotions and gets too powerful and how that's dangerous for everyone around her and she needs to get back under control. Wanda, Dark Willow, etc. And then they typically have to get a much harsher punishment than a man who undergoes a similar story, because they've gone much further in breaking social norms. It's COOL when a guy gets angry and beats people up, but if it's a woman she's a bitch or crazy. Also, what is this story about? Is it about the dangers of witches getting into dark magic and mind controlling towns? That isn't actually a thing. It's not about that. It's about how women need to get their emotions under control because otherwise it's a danger to society. Think of the children! How can we get these unruly ladies under control? I'm not accusing you or anyone else, it doesn't sound like you are pushing things in that direction in the least. I don't think the people here are really pushing that narrative. But, there are a ton of people who would say "damnit Wanda didn't get what she deserved" who WOULD be coming from that place. I think that's part of why it's so annoying to hear it, we've been hearing that complaint about stories for a long time. Whether people intend it or not, it's an unspoken subtext we need to address in order to discuss this in good faith.
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Mar 8, 2021 21:28
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Desperado Bones posted:^^ The Señor Scratchy part sounded like it was fun. I think they also didn't have time to finish the CGI, didn't they?. Kinda sad they had to edit it out. doesn't sound like they ran out of time to complete it, but rather that they decided to cut it early in post-production for creative reasons (Shakman seems to imply that they thought it took focus away from the central plot and the title characters, at least that's how I interpreted it)
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Mar 8, 2021 21:30
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wandavision presented itself as a narrative about grief and how wallowing in it can turn people into monsters. people pointing out that the show flinched away from this theme at the last minute and tried to recast its central character as an unsung hero isn't misogynistic.tsob posted:If it makes you feel any better, he appears to be flat out wrong having listened to the interview in question and to just be misrepresenting what Shakman actually said. ah, that's good to know. serves me right for not clicking through the tweet and reading the source QuoProQuid fucked around with this message at 21:35 on Mar 8, 2021 |
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Mar 8, 2021 21:33
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QuoProQuid posted:wandavision presented itself as a narrative about grief and how wallowing in it can turn people into monsters. people pointing out that the show flinched away from this theme at the last minute and tried to recast its central character as an unsung hero isn't misogynistic. The source article does the same thing, sadly. The twitter thread does timestamp it so you can just listen to relevant bits if you wanted, but there is interesting information in there regardless. I guess a lot of people just don't want to engage with anything to do with Smith though. I can't say as I mind him personally, and I listen to that show most weeks 
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Mar 8, 2021 21:44
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Expect this to now get regurgitated endlessly into the Twittersphere and click bait articles based on the inaccurate reporting of the guy who "listened" to the podcast on behalf of everyone.
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Mar 8, 2021 21:52
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XboxPants posted:Part of the subtext of the controversy is that a lot of people view this as a gender issue, too, though it's hard to bring this up without things turning into a slap fight. It's an extremely common trope to have a fantasy story about the woman who can't handle her emotions and gets too powerful and how that's dangerous for everyone around her and she needs to get back under control. Wanda, Dark Willow, etc. And then they typically have to get a much harsher punishment than a man who undergoes a similar story, because they've gone much further in breaking social norms. It's COOL when a guy gets angry and beats people up, but if it's a woman she's a bitch or crazy. That's completely fair. Lord knows comics and other nerd fandoms are filled with that kind of awful poo poo. I can see how that would press some buttons to hear yet again.
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Mar 8, 2021 21:57
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QuoProQuid posted:wandavision presented itself as a narrative about grief and how wallowing in it can turn people into monsters. people pointing out that the show flinched away from this theme at the last minute and tried to recast its central character as an unsung hero isn't misogynistic. imo it didn't do that. It had another grief casualty acknowledge the desire to wallow in it even if it hurts other people, had a line of people that had been utterly hosed up by Wandas actions just staring at her (but staying well back bc she's a horrifying monster), then she flew off. If she'd done a big swelling strings apology and they'd all come forward to hug and learn in some kind of post match handshaking line, then sure.
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Mar 8, 2021 22:00
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This line of thought reminds me of the people who thought that Jack Nicholson didn't freeze to death at the end of The Shining because "nobody ever said he was dead."
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Mar 8, 2021 22:04
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ONE YEAR LATER posted:It's an organization called the World Security Council, but they'd still be under control of basically western military power as the Security Council is only like the 6 people shown in Winter Soldier.
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Mar 8, 2021 22:06
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achillesforever6 posted:Well tbf Soviet Spies assassinated the agents of capitalism and bourgeois This is unrelated to the original point, but this is so absurd when you think about it for 5 minutes. Black Widow was...what, 6? When the USSR collapsed? Was she a spy for the FSB under capitalist kleptocracy Russia of the 90's? It's a similar question for Winter Soldier, whose entire identity is constructed around Soviet-era iconography, despite operating for 25 years after the USSR didn't exist. Comic narratives in general got turbo-hosed by the End of History-ness of the 1990's. So much of their worldview is still mired in midcentury concepts that are now 60 years old. Pretty much every villain I can think of is some pale reflection of the Nazis or the Soviets.
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Mar 8, 2021 22:06
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achillesforever6 posted:Yeah I imagine being under the UN control via the WSC would be deploying the Avengers to prevent any resistance to coups in the global south considering how the UN usually acts There is still quite a difference between being controlled by a security council for a group made up of almost every recognized country on Earth with legal authorization to act inside the borders of over half those countries and being controlled solely by the single strongest military nation on Earth.
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Mar 8, 2021 22:11
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Xealot posted:Comic narratives in general got turbo-hosed by the End of History-ness of the 1990's. So much of their worldview is still mired in midcentury concepts that are now 60 years old. Pretty much every villain I can think of is some pale reflection of the Nazis or the Soviets. Sadly we've had a bit of a resurgence of the one out of 2 of those groups, and the fact that the one that's still with us, or at least people whos share their ideology, are walking the halls of the US government right now really shows how prescient Winter Soldier was for a comic book movie.
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Mar 8, 2021 22:24
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Xealot posted:This is unrelated to the original point, but this is so absurd when you think about it for 5 minutes. Black Widow was...what, 6? When the USSR collapsed? Was she a spy for the FSB under capitalist kleptocracy Russia of the 90's? It's a similar question for Winter Soldier, whose entire identity is constructed around Soviet-era iconography, despite operating for 25 years after the USSR didn't exist. Theoretically she could be much older since Black Widow in the 616 universe was born in the 1920s and has been experimented on giving her superhuman qualities. Plus there's a whole movie coming out (eventually) about her backstory so I'm sure it's addressed.
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Mar 8, 2021 22:25
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XboxPants posted:Part of the subtext of the controversy is that a lot of people view this as a gender issue, too, though it's hard to bring this up without things turning into a slap fight. It's an extremely common trope to have a fantasy story about the woman who can't handle her emotions and gets too powerful and how that's dangerous for everyone around her and she needs to get back under control. Wanda, Dark Willow, etc. And then they typically have to get a much harsher punishment than a man who undergoes a similar story, because they've gone much further in breaking social norms. It's COOL when a guy gets angry and beats people up, but if it's a woman she's a bitch or crazy. This is a very good post and explains a lot of why the whole premise of the show felt sort of off to me.
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Mar 8, 2021 22:25
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Ouhei posted:The show is really an origin story for Scarlet Witch. I think if you view the plot with that mind it makes a lot more sense overall. I think there's valid criticisms to be made around the details, but I don't think they're any worse than you could lob at most MCU stories. This was my reading of it from the beginning. It was Wanda's story from the start. Since she had previously never been referred to as "Scarlett Witch" in-universe, so I wasn't expecting to get a full-on backstory on it being some sort of fabled magic user, and Wanda's ascent into that... form(?), if you will. I never expected much from the other characters or storylines unless they directly impacted Wanda's stakes in this mess. In that sense, I thought it was pretty coherent and made sense. The only character I thought needed some development was Hayward, because he just sort of comes off as a Phase 2 villain in terms of "I'm the antagonist because... reasons!" Considering the role we have to assume SWORD plays moving forward, developing it out seems like it would have been a good use of time. Or maybe they feature more prominently in Falcon and Winter Soldier? Guess we'll find out.
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Mar 8, 2021 22:29
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The Sokovia Accords also seem really problematic in that the UN has to authorize Avengers and powered people to act. Technically, Strange, Tony, Spidey, and Wong were all breaking the Sokovia Accords fighting Cull and Maw in New York. Agents of SHIELD talked about the Sokovian Accords a lot in seasons 3 and 4, even raising the point that most of the actual threats to the world would actually work if they had to wait for approval from the UN to act, especially when its something other than a giant gently caress off space ship raining hell upon the surface. I feel like Tony signed knowing full well that if (when) a Thanos like creature came to Earth he was always going to be like gently caress this and go into action.
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Mar 8, 2021 22:46
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^^^ It's easier to beg forgiveness than to ask permission. In the face of an actual existential threat that had to be stopped immediately there would have been a show trial, the cable at Avengers HQ would be cut off for a month as punishment, and a permanent UN observer would be installed with a remit to say "Yeah, that looks existential to me" on future occurrences. XboxPants posted:Part of the subtext of the controversy is that a lot of people view this as a gender issue, too, though it's hard to bring this up without things turning into a slap fight. It's an extremely common trope to have a fantasy story about the woman who can't handle her emotions and gets too powerful and how that's dangerous for everyone around her and she needs to get back under control. Wanda, Dark Willow, etc. And then they typically have to get a much harsher punishment than a man who undergoes a similar story, because they've gone much further in breaking social norms. It's COOL when a guy gets angry and beats people up, but if it's a woman she's a bitch or crazy. Don't forget that they're all redheads, too. Jedit fucked around with this message at 22:55 on Mar 8, 2021 |
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Mar 8, 2021 22:49
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ONE YEAR LATER posted:I agree with you about AoU and Winter Soldier (I'm actually watching it now and Steve even says to Peggy that her being a founder of SHIELD is the only reason he stick around) but what in IM3 would change Tony's perspective? I watched it recently and don't really remember anything that would make him be pro-regulation. Part of the arc for Tony in Iron Man 3 is learning that he doesn't need to carry the weight of the world on his shoulders and, in fact, him doing that can sometimes be MORE dangerous for others around him. He is not the Randian Superman he imagined himself to be in Iron Man 1 who needs to single-handedly solve the military industrial complex to cleanse his personal guilt, nor the somewhat different one he imagined himself to be in Iron Man 2 who knows better than the government, has "privatized world peace," and needs to take sole responsibility for the fruits of his genius and hand-select the future custodians of the Earth as his death approaches. Iron Man 3 teaches him that arrogance and a compulsive feeling that he can build and bravado his way out of every problem was enough to almost cost him everything, which forces him to rebuild himself as a person from square one, and rebuild Iron Man to be less Iron and more Man. He talks about this with Cap directly in Civil War. He destroys the suits in Iron Man 3 so he can let go of his feeling that he needs to be the world's savior, but in the end he didn't WANT to let that feeling go. This is one of the things that motivated him to build Ultron in the first place: if he has an AI that can fulfill that role for him, maybe he himself can be the Iron Man who is only around in case of "monsters in the closet," as he mentions in Infinity War. Its also pretty telling that he doesn't build Ultron ALONE, but specifically works with Banner on it, which isn't something he would have likely done without the lessons from Iron Man 2 and 3 under his belt.
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Mar 8, 2021 23:07
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Probably not a surprise to anyone, but Paul Bettany says that he will have multiple additional appearances in the MCU going forward. And that he is going to have a more substantial role in the MCU going forward compared to the "ten minutes here, ten minutes there, in the movies" he had before.
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Mar 8, 2021 23:21
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Probably not a surprise to anyone, but Paul Bettany says that he will have multiple additional appearances in the MCU going forward. And that he is going to have a more substantial role in the MCU going forward compared to the "ten minutes here, ten minutes there, in the movies" he had before. Three of the first four movies/shows in Phase 4 star dead characters so Idris Elba's definitely showing up in Love and Thunder.
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Mar 8, 2021 23:32
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live with fruit posted:Three of the first four movies/shows in Phase 4 star dead characters so Idris Elba's definitely showing up in Love and Thunder. Whose the third after Vision and Black Widow?
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Mar 8, 2021 23:35
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stev posted:Whose the third after Vision and Black Widow? Loki.
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Mar 8, 2021 23:36
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Oh yeah, I thought the Ten Rings movie was coming first. That's supposed to be July and we've still seen basically nothing about it right?
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Mar 8, 2021 23:39
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I wonder what movies he'll be appearing in? I'm presuming he'll be like Hulk, appearing as a secondary protagonist in other people's films, but if he was going to be in Multiverse of Madness then it'd probably have leaked by now. I think it'd be better to have him appear in at least one film without Wanda to explore himself without her too. Maybe Black Panther 2, given his body was in Wakanda for a while and they may have a copy of him still? Captain Marvel 2? He has a connection to Monica now. Or at least, she has a connection to a version of him. Given his strength and diversity of powers he's more suitable for outer space stuff too, really. He could be fun in the new Spidey too, as two people influenced by Tony Stark.
tsob fucked around with this message at 23:43 on Mar 8, 2021 |
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Mar 8, 2021 23:40
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stev posted:Oh yeah, I thought the Ten Rings movie was coming first. That's supposed to be July and we've still seen basically nothing about it right? There was a Lego set thing a couple weeks ago but that's it. The star even kind of apologized when there was no Super Bowl commercial.
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Mar 8, 2021 23:41
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tsob posted:I wonder what movies he'll be appearing in? I'm presuming he'll be like Hulk, appearing as a secondary protagonist in other people's films, but if he was going to be in Multiverse of Madness then it'd probably have leaked by now. I think it'd be better to have him appear in at least one film without Wanda to explore himself without her too. Maybe Black Panther 2, given his body was in Wakanda for a while and they may have a copy of him still? Captain Marvel 2? He has a connection to Monica now. Or at least, she has a connection to a version of him. He could be fun in the new Spidey too, as two people influenced by Tony Stark. Armor Wars makes sense since it's about people trying to steal Tony's tech.
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Mar 8, 2021 23:42
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live with fruit posted:Armor Wars makes sense since it's about people trying to steal Tony's tech. I was only thinking about movies, but that's a really good point.
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Mar 8, 2021 23:44
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So is the FBI gonna foot the bill for all the therapy everyone in the town is gonna need? I'm imagining an exhausted therapist reading off the federally approved statement that explains how their psychic abuser gets to live in Stardew Valley because this whole mess has been officially classified as a "whoopsie." And thus, with no malicious intent, no punishment of the abuser-god is required. Please go to the next window for your new property voucher in the Ozarks, because Westview has been quarantined off forever as yet another superhero anomalous zone. Also I guess SW can put some runes on some rocks and launch them into stable orbit, and then no witch other than her can use magic on earth, ever? Does this include Dr. Strange?
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Mar 8, 2021 23:55
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sebmojo posted:imo it didn't do that. It had another grief casualty acknowledge the desire to wallow in it even if it hurts other people, had a line of people that had been utterly hosed up by Wandas actions just staring at her (but staying well back bc she's a horrifying monster), then she flew off. when delivered by monica, a paragon who serves as the voice of reason and morality throughout the show, the line that “They’ll never know what you sacrificed for them” strikes me as an attempt to recast Wanda's decision to give up her family and accept the hatred of westview as the ultimate act of altruism. while obviously her decision is good and just, the language of "sacrifice" doesn't really feel right idk. as i've said earlier, i might be getting a little too hung up on this show having to fit inside a broader ecosystem of MCU properties so the really rushed dialogue trying to wrap things up and the lack of any meaningful denouement rubs me the wrong way. i probably won't watch doctor strange 2 but i would hope that they complete the ideas they introduce in wandavision because i do like her character and i do like a lot of what of what i saw the writers try in the earlier episodes. QuoProQuid fucked around with this message at 00:03 on Mar 9, 2021 |
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Mar 8, 2021 23:56
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Barry Convex posted:this is editorializing bullshit from the fansite in question. he doesn't say anything in the actual interview to suggest that anything was cut out or otherwise changed in response to fan theories, only that the "aerospace engineer" line that stoked all the Reed Richards theorizing was itself added in reshoots and had the unintentional effect of leading people to expect a big reveal where none was ever intended Someone spent a year on that rover set piece for a 2 minute scene that could of be done 100x other ways?
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Mar 9, 2021 00:00
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sure okay posted:So is the FBI gonna foot the bill for all the therapy everyone in the town is gonna need? Does Sokovia even have an extradition agreement with the US?
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Mar 9, 2021 00:09
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QuoProQuid posted:when delivered by monica, a paragon who serves as the voice of reason and morality throughout the show, the line that “They’ll never know what you sacrificed for them” strikes me as an attempt to recast Wanda's decision to give up her family and accept the hatred of westview as the ultimate act of altruism. while obviously her decision is good and just, the language of "sacrifice" doesn't really feel right monica was the one who wanted to rescue her because she understood that she was grieving, right from the beginning - that was how she was introduced. So it's natural she'd be understanding about that. she was trying to make her feel better, but that's the character not 'the show'. e; it was clunky writing, for sure, but if she was absolved then there wouldn't be a conga line of people she'd tortured staring at her imo
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Mar 9, 2021 00:14
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So since WandaVision ended up being a Scarlet Witch origin, is The Falcon and the Winter Soldier going to end up being an origin for Falcon Cap? I have to assume so.
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Mar 9, 2021 00:24
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FlamingLiberal posted:So since WandaVision ended up being a Scarlet Witch origin, is The Falcon and the Winter Soldier going to end up being an origin for Falcon Cap? I have to assume so. That's certainly my assumption, yea. It's strange otherwise that we haven't even gotten a photo of him as Cap for promotional purposes, when Steve personally named him as his successor. So I assume the story is about building to it, about Sam feeling like he's worthy of it since he told Steve he didn't feel that when Steve gave him the shield.
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Mar 9, 2021 00:41
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tsob posted:That's certainly my assumption, yea. It's strange otherwise that we haven't even gotten a photo of him as Cap for promotional purposes, when Steve personally named him as his successor. So I assume the story is about building to it, about Sam feeling like he's worthy of it since he told Steve he didn't feel that when Steve gave him the shield.
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Mar 9, 2021 00:48
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socialsecurity posted:Someone spent a year on that rover set piece for a 2 minute scene that could of be done 100x other ways? Maybe they're planning to reuse the rover vehicles for Captain Marvel 2.
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Mar 9, 2021 00:54
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G-III posted:Sadly we've had a bit of a resurgence of the one out of 2 of those groups, and the fact that the one that's still with us, or at least people whos share their ideology, are walking the halls of the US government right now really shows how prescient Winter Soldier was for a comic book movie. True. Captain America: Winter Soldier did nail that part. Though I think the best take on modern-day neo-Nazis in a comic book thing was the 7th Cavalry from Watchmen. They're more of the brownshirt militia sense of a Nazi, which feels more resonant for what's happening right now. The cliche I'm referring to is the Arnim Zola kind of Nazi, the Baron Strucker kind, in a rigid uniform with a goofy accent who seems part of a fully-formed fascist state. Guys like that are all over comic books, well into the 2000's, and it feels like WW2-era propaganda still happening now. The rising tide of homegrown American fascism feels very timely, though, yeah. I'd say the vaguely-Soviet poo poo is more visible in the MCU, however. Sokovia is pretty much a Soviet bloc country, the Red Room or Winter Soldier programs are evil KGB fantasies, all the background between Stark and Vanko and Hank Pym is pulled out of the 60's, and obviously there's all the MK-Ultra psyops stuff happening well into the 2010's.
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Mar 9, 2021 00:54
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"this wonderful actress" So wonderful you couldn't remember her name or bother to give her a shout out?
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Mar 9, 2021 01:09
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I think people would have jumped on this far less as well if Bettany hadn't cheekily told the world about the actor he couldn't wait to act opposite or if we hadn't heard about a "Luke Skywalker" level of surprise...
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Mar 9, 2021 01:19
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