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Nessus posted:Did Comp/con get created before Lancer was released, was it part of the Kickstarter? I know that is a big easer for the game at large and I actually know of at least one live Lancer campaign in my friend group. (By comparison: two 5E games, one Scion game) Comp/Con was a fan project being done by the creator on their own time as a sort of hobby thing, then when Lancer's Kickstarter blew up big the creators had the extra funding to pay the C/C dev to bring him onboard and turn it into an official toolset. So this is sort of an example of how success feeds into success in a way that you can't do without that initial big blowup, if Lancer had made a very modest success of itself (the initial ask was $50,000 for a print run and pdf release) then that would have been fine as far as these things go, the world would have another game, the creators could check it off their list and reconvene once it was done, maybe do another project. But because it blew up as big as it did, it mean they had the extra funding to do things like pay for a quality webapp, which in turn has been a huge selling point for Lancer, which in turn has kept the hype for the game going strong, etc. It's very feast or famine in a sense, there's all sorts of cool things you can do to make your game more of a success once it's a success, but you really need that initial sort of hype train to really keep the ball rolling. Arivia posted:I think trying to change the industry by deriding the vast majority of its consumers/participants as idiots not interested in good quality design or writing is a non-starter, regardless of where you're coming from. There, that's my conclusion. Allstone posted:The conclusion is not that the audience lacks the ability to discern quality - the conclusion is that capital has an undue and overwhelming influence that should be curtailed wherever possible. More specifically, the point here, and given that this is the industry thread I think this is actually a pretty salient point, is that if you want your TRPG project to be a big success crowdfunding or otherwise, your best bet of achieving that is to focus your time, effort, and resources on things like production values and art, because that's what seems to attract attention, funding, and customers, moreso than any attempt at defining what is and isn't quality gameplay or writing in the field of RPGs. If you want to take umbrage at that and decide it's derision to take that lesson away from the many, many examples where that's the case then that's a thing I guess you could do, it's not like any amount of derision is going to make a dent in the sales of D&D so frankly if I was a diehard D&D fan I would simply rest content in the knowledge that I'd won the elfgame wars and not care if someone said mean things about the CR system or whatever, but from a perspective of pure mercenary success maximization, the optimal approach appears to be focused on looking real sweet and having big chunky books first and foremost, so if you can afford to do that then that's probably what you should do.
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Mar 8, 2021 02:01
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Increasing awareness of issues within D&D is good enough, forget all this full gay luxury communism now poo poo. Even as a person who hated D&D 5E from the beginning from a design standpoint, I had no idea about the Zak S stuff until relatively recently.
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Mar 8, 2021 02:25
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Allstone posted:The conclusion is not that the audience lacks the ability to discern quality - the conclusion is that capital has an undue and overwhelming influence that should be curtailed wherever possible. And, beyond that, while consumers are capable of determining quality, they can't determine the quality of products they aren't exposed to. It costs money to market and promote a game to consumers, which means already successful brands and companies have a distinct advantage over smaller publishers with less capital or brand recognition.
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Mar 8, 2021 02:26
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I feel like this is difficult to quantify, but there's something to be said for D&D's presence in pop culture that helps lead people to really want to play D&D specifically. No one in mass media plays tabletop RPGs, they play D&D, and that has an impact.
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Mar 8, 2021 03:50
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King of Solomon posted:I feel like this is difficult to quantify, but there's something to be said for D&D's presence in pop culture that helps lead people to really want to play D&D specifically. No one in mass media plays tabletop RPGs, they play D&D, and that has an impact. Yep, and as Dexo mentioned upthread the huge rise in popularity of D&D streaming has massively helped D&D gain an even greater foothold than before, now they don't even need something like an appearance in Stranger Things, D&D has become pop culture all on its own again.
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Mar 8, 2021 04:19
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Meinberg posted:We change the way that the community works by changing the way we work, and by speaking of our methodology and our ideology widely. I'm going to go with "yes you are being very melodramatic" and "this whole argument is kinda weird". Like it seems to suppose a chain of logic that I can almost see if I squint, but that is absurd when taken into the light and stated so clearly: the idea that getting people to accept that game design has value will lead to an anti-capitalist revolution; the implicit plea that we must do the former to achieve the latter. It's a laudable goal to get people to recognize that all labour has value, but calling it an inherently revolutionary act is laying it on pretty thick and saying that this is somehow stifled by a US reticence towards revolutionary thought makes it pretty hard to take seriously. And just like... only people who've been "broken on the wheel of system violence have learned to embrace the revolution" of... valuing game design highly? I don't know, that seems to dismiss the passions and interests of lots of people who care about and highly value design just because they don't have one very specific lived experience.
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Mar 8, 2021 07:08
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Arivia posted:I think trying to change the industry by deriding the vast majority of its consumers/participants as idiots not interested in good quality design or writing is a non-starter, regardless of where you're coming from. There, that's my conclusion. I don't see it as being derogatory of consumers so much as acknowledging that mass media, advertising, and corporatism can push people towards certain behaviors. It doesn't have to mean people are necessarily dumb and stupid.
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Mar 8, 2021 07:13
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LatwPIAT posted:I'm going to go with "yes you are being very melodramatic" and "this whole argument is kinda weird". Like it seems to suppose a chain of logic that I can almost see if I squint, but that is absurd when taken into the light and stated so clearly: the idea that getting people to accept that game design has value will lead to an anti-capitalist revolution; the implicit plea that we must do the former to achieve the latter. It's a laudable goal to get people to recognize that all labour has value, but calling it an inherently revolutionary act is laying it on pretty thick and saying that this is somehow stifled by a US reticence towards revolutionary thought makes it pretty hard to take seriously. From how I interpreted their statements, it's less what you're citing and more "break the stranglehold of marketing backed by capital, and consider products on their own merits". The "inherently revolutionary act" isn't meant in any sense that "game design is going to lead the storming of gated communities" or something. Happen to have this on hand, which is another use of the phrase that maybe illustrates more clearly the intent behind it -  It's taking back control of one sphere of life by acting against forces intended to shape those spheres into profit centers. If you want control, you need understanding; if you want RPGs as an industry to be about the quality of the games and not the size of their marketing budget, you need consumers that can understand the differences between marketing and reality, and recognize good and bad design in action. Motivating people to push back against controlling forces is a net good. Breaking the influence of those forces, too, is a net good. Right now, WotC is one of those forces. That doesn't necessarily drive widespread revolution (most likely doesn't move the needle), but it does return the industry to the people within it and not just the suits that own the big IPs. SkyeAuroline fucked around with this message at 08:28 on Mar 8, 2021 |
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Mar 8, 2021 08:25
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There are already literally hundreds of free RPGs out there already though. Your gardening analogy is more like people playing their weird homebrew, not supporting indie creators. I find this whole line of argument super strange honestly. RPGs are already an industry where self-publication is common, where anyone with some time on their hands can put together their own RPG and put it up for sale on DriveThruRPG or Itch.io. That isn't a conducive environment to people financially valuing rules writing, because there is so much of it out there already. You can't really have it both ways, if RPGs are going to be something that has a super low barrier to entry, in which case RPG writing is not going to be valued super highly because of all the free/low cost options and the only way to stand out is to offer something else. That something else might be great art, a license people want to play, a whole bunch of random tables, or celebrity involvement for a given value of celebrity.
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Mar 8, 2021 14:54
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Kai Tave posted:More specifically, the point here, and given that this is the industry thread I think this is actually a pretty salient point, is that if you want your TRPG project to be a big success crowdfunding or otherwise, your best bet of achieving that is to focus your time, effort, and resources on things like production values and art, because that's what seems to attract attention, funding, and customers, moreso than any attempt at defining what is and isn't quality gameplay or writing in the field of RPGs. Hard disagree. If you want your RPG Kickstarter to be a success, your primary aim should be to develop and cultivate an online persona with an established fanbase. All other concerns are secondary, at best.
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Mar 8, 2021 15:30
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Toshimo posted:Hard disagree. If you want your RPG Kickstarter to be a success, your primary aim should be to develop and cultivate an online persona with an established fanbase. All other concerns are secondary, at best. I agree with this if we're keeping it to Kickstarter success rather than long term sales success. This thing recently became the third highest RPG KS despite being a fairly limited product and I chalk most of that success up to the creators being Youtubers with a built in audience. The number one highest RPG Kickstarter is the same way. I strongly suspect that none of these products have legs in the market beyond the initial Kickstarter. Not that it matters when you've already sold more copies of your book that most companies manage across all their lines.
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Mar 8, 2021 15:46
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Toshimo posted:Hard disagree. If you want your RPG Kickstarter to be a success, your primary aim should be to develop and cultivate an online persona with an established fanbase. All other concerns are secondary, at best. I just looked at my backed kickstarters, for all but one i made the decision based on the person running the kickstarter far more than the product. The only issue is that i always want a dead-tree level which means i tend to only go in on products i am interested, or invested, in and cant do many. Eta - the one exception was weild, i liked the idea but dont know much about Wick, so its the only one i got at electronic only
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Mar 8, 2021 15:58
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I can definitely see a consistency of thought between consuming 5e because it's what's available and holding equally garbage unexamined political views. It's frustrating to "know better" and watch people flock to a popular (but objectively worse) option, then back their opinions up with recieved wisdom. "I know single payer would cover my insulin, but I really like my insurance" has the same energy as "5e lets my group actually roleplay instead of playing tabletop WoW." "The designers definitely care about rules craftmanship" is an absurdism that's wildly apparent to anyone who paid attention to the Next "playtest" cycle.
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Mar 8, 2021 16:36
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moths posted:I can definitely see a consistency of thought between consuming 5e because it's what's available and holding equally garbage unexamined political views. loving hell.
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Mar 8, 2021 16:51
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I’ve kickstarted a number of rpg products based solely on their creative promise, but I’ve certainly never kickstarted a product that I never heard about.
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Mar 8, 2021 17:01
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DalaranJ posted:I’ve kickstarted a number of rpg products based solely on their creative promise, but I’ve certainly never kickstarted a product that I never heard about. I've done some randon decks of cards i liked the look of. I just try and be aware that the terms of kickstarter are thar you're paying for someone to make a reasonable attempt at whatever. Dont spend more money than you'd feel bad potentially wasting
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Mar 8, 2021 17:13
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moths posted:I can definitely see a consistency of thought between consuming 5e because it's what's available and holding equally garbage unexamined political views. What
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Mar 8, 2021 17:55
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moths posted:I can definitely see a consistency of thought between consuming 5e because it's what's available and holding equally garbage unexamined political views. my dude, I am trying to back you up but that opener is doing no favors here.
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Mar 8, 2021 17:59
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If you didn't like the tactical miniatures edition of D&D you are clearly a deranged political regressive.
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Mar 8, 2021 18:01
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I mean that "wizards must be strongest" and "trickle down economics work" are two examples of wrong but popular ideas to which people cling. There's not much difference in the process where these get accepted as fact, and unlearning one is pretty much the same process as unlearning another. You'd think getting people to examine their closely-held harmful beliefs would be easier when they concern wizards. The point is that self-examination leads to growth. Unexamined consumption of fantasy gaming obviously has less potential for social harm, but it falls into the same pattern as buying into IQ, right wing media, or  .
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Mar 8, 2021 18:50
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moths posted:I mean that "wizards must be strongest" and "trickle down economics work" are two examples of wrong but popular ideas to which people cling. I mean... maybe? In the broadest sense possible? Maybe don’t try to tie socialist praxis to getting people to play different pen and paper rpgs
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Mar 8, 2021 19:56
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playing the games I like means you have good politics
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Mar 8, 2021 20:24
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The last time someone asked me to play 5e I called him a Nazi and walked off.
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Mar 8, 2021 20:43
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thetoughestbean posted:Maybe don’t try to tie socialist praxis to getting people to play different pen and paper rpgs Is that what it looks like? Getting people to rethink the necessity of Ability Scores is a baby step towards deprogramming a lifetime of propaganda, and happens in a safe thought-space for exploration. Some eye-opening came from the Wendy's backlash. I don't think that would have happened if we weren't primed to reexamine labor practices and the consequences of our consumption. It's probably not going to push anyone into action, but it's more satisfying than the routine coddling of complacency that's ubiquitous in America. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 8, 2021 20:52
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I too believe that people disliking my favorite game is tantamount to fascism.
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Mar 8, 2021 20:59
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People not liking the same elfgame as you is really not that big a deal.
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Mar 8, 2021 21:02
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rolling 2d6 is radical acceptance. rolling a d20 is bigotry
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Mar 8, 2021 21:14
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Nope. This has run its course. Kindly discuss anything other than the topic of the last two pages, folks!
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Mar 8, 2021 21:15
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Currently, i'm writing a game that's sumerian mythology meets spelljammer, for the short games digest. That's it. I'm a designer, so that counts as industry news.
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Mar 8, 2021 22:55
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So what is the next best alternative to Kickstarter if you're a no-name creator trying to pre-finance your idea?
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Mar 8, 2021 23:12
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Tibalt posted:So what is the next best alternative to Kickstarter if you're a no-name creator trying to pre-finance your idea? Severely dialing back your expectations and making something simple that doesn't require any resources you can't provide yourself in your spare time, or possibly IndieGoGo.
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Mar 8, 2021 23:28
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Magnusth posted:Currently, i'm writing a game that's sumerian mythology meets spelljammer, for the short games digest. As someone running a semi-historical game that heavily involved Sumerian mythology and also a fan of Spelljammer, I am interested to hear more.
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Mar 8, 2021 23:41
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LatwPIAT posted:making something simple that doesn't require any resources you can't provide yourself in your spare time The best part about this is that it's fun to do.
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Mar 9, 2021 00:21
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Elector_Nerdlingen posted:The best part about this is that it's fun to do. citation needed  At least in terms of my own attempts, can't say it bears out.
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Mar 9, 2021 01:01
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Tibalt posted:So what is the next best alternative to Kickstarter if you're a no-name creator trying to pre-finance your idea? I would also recommend stealing and then editing old, public domain victorian novel art. A lot of people reccommend this, but never provide any resources, because they naturally want to pick over the pile first, so here. But that art isn't DnD related!! Isn't it?    If you know how to use GIMP or photoshop you can jazzle these things up nicely. If not, hey, that's a skill you can teach yourself. A lot of poorer creators I've known do this.
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Mar 9, 2021 01:08
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SkyeAuroline posted:citation needed If I'm not having fun making something I can't keep making it, so the only things that ever actually got made were the things that were fun to make. Having realised this, I started to select projects based on two criteria: 1) is this within or within reach of my abilities and resources, and 2) is this fun to work on. Now stuff gets finished instead of not getting finished, and I feel good about my spare-time activity instead of stressed.
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Mar 9, 2021 01:23
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Magnusth posted:Currently, i'm writing a game that's sumerian mythology meets spelljammer, for the short games digest. Please explain more, this is relevant to my interests
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Mar 9, 2021 02:08
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Disclaimer: I am not now, nor have I ever been, nor do I wish to be a games designer/writer/publisher, but everything here is based on decades of sitting down and talking to plenty of people who are about their successes and failures (and also from experience in other industries that is also very applicable here). I'm sure if I've got any of it wrong, industry bittervets will swiftly correct me. The ease of entry into the tabletop field is the double-edged sword that makes it all-but-impossible to easily break in. At no time in human history have their been more tools and resources to make your very own professional-looking, high-quality digital assets and publications. Anyone with enough time, energy, and talent can crank out something digital with production values at-or-above the industry leaders. And that's the rub: If anybody can do it, everyone's doing it, and the consumer just has no ability to separate the wheat from the chaff in any meaningful way. I can go out right now and download 100 free RPG systems, and 1000s more for pocket change. How the hell do I know which ones are right for me and my players? Reviewers are largely poo poo. Everyone's shouting about how great and novel their system is, but you'll never really know until you spend hours and hours banging your face on it to find out. So, you, the consumer, do what everyone does: You get something from word-of-mouth, or from a reputable source, or something visually appealing. And you're not wrong, because the time investment to find The Perfect RPG System (not the Lucas thing) isn't worth it. It never has been. If you're the kind of person who actively seeks out small, niche products because you have an excess of time and/or money and you've got friends willing to sink their time/energy as well, that's great. It's just not the norm for people playing TTRPGs. So, as an aspiring TTRPG designer/writer, what do you do? Don't. The odds are overwhelmingly against you and it's liable to be a miserable process. The really successful indie folks have probably been at this for more years than you'd like to consider and have had to press on despite infinite setbacks. It's a slog and I wouldn't wish it on anyone. If it's going to be your passion project and you can live with nobody ever really reading it but you, Go Hog Wild. Now, if you're ready to have your soul crushed out and really, REALLY want to just smash your face into the wall, again, the most important thing to do is to grow out an independent brand before trying to market your game. Get separate public-facing social media accounts, develop a twitter following and start putting out regular content on at least 1 major platform (youtube/twitch/etc.). Get name recognition. Get a logo. And do all this at the same time you are writing. Because, it turns out, you're going to need to learn all this and get accustomed to multi-tasking if you want to be able to release a product while promoting it and also probably fixing it and/or updating it based on feedback. If you can't do 1 article/video a week while also keeping a real writing schedule, you're going to flounder once it comes time to campaign. Live your dream, but also live your reality.
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Mar 9, 2021 02:52
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Here's a post-mortem for one of the more highly-backed ZineQuest projects: https://uncannyspheres.blogspot.com/2021/03/zine-quest-3-post-mortem-drain.html
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Mar 9, 2021 04:56
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I'm going to toddle into this saloon and give a strong right hook to the first cowboy I see .... for the revolution long-rear end nips Diane posted:Here's a post-mortem for one of the more highly-backed ZineQuest projects: https://uncannyspheres.blogspot.com/2021/03/zine-quest-3-post-mortem-drain.html I find this bit very interesting: quote:Total Backers: 1402 Both for what it demonstrates in what people like to get out of a kickstarter, and also combined with the earlier point raised in the blog post about all sorts of unpredictable and costly risks physical shipping will represent to the project.
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Mar 9, 2021 06:08
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