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Guinness posted:I think the fear of retaliation after a counter-offer is overblown, especially at the established professional level. It's not a zero concern, but the internet advice of "never accept a counter" is, like much internet advice, oversimplified. This has always been my mindset when giving notice. There's a small part that is the target-on-your-back part, but the bigger thing is that there were clear circumstances that led to me looking, interviewing, and accepting a different offer. Most places I leave then try to say that they'll change and address any issues I have, but either: 1. It's not true and nothing will change (likely) or 2. They only really are going to change if I threaten to leave, so the next time I want to address any issues I'm going to have to threaten to leave again. Also, generally, the offer is going to be for more money, and if my current company wants to pay the minimum to keep me and only increase my pay when I'm leaving, then that tells me exactly what they think I'm worth.
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Mar 8, 2021 00:03
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Also, from a purely pragmatic standpoint, if any vendor tries to push a cost increase onto a company, the company evaluates their options rather than just pay the increase. If they do pay the increase, they realize there's risk there and work to mitigate the risk. And working to mitigate the risk is not going to involve suddenly paying everyone market rate that was below it.
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Mar 8, 2021 01:28
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Guinness posted:I think the fear of retaliation after a counter-offer is overblown, especially at the established professional level. It's not a zero concern, but the internet advice of "never accept a counter" is, like much internet advice, oversimplified. I've personally accepted a counter at my first real job and got burned hard by it. I'm glad I learned that lesson early in my career but I will also always always give the advice of 'never ever accept a counter' Presumably they asked for a raise earlier and didn't get it. That was their chance PIZZA.BAT fucked around with this message at 02:37 on Mar 8, 2021 |
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Mar 8, 2021 02:34
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Would appreciate some advice for a decision I need to make in a few hours. All roles mentioned are fully remote. I currently earn $120k + 15% bonus (which I got, prorated due to my start date, a few days ago for 2020) at medium-to-large corporate firm doing website touching. I recently got two offers, on the same day, since I have a compulsive need to interview as it's the only form of external validation I get (my boss is... below-average, occasionally maddening but she does relent sometimes). Healthcare is excellent, I pay $150/mo for a platinum Kaiser plan. This job has a 'Senior Manager' title. I probably do things about 35hrs/wk. One offer is for $130k at a boutique digital agency. I actually respect these guys a lot, they're known for excellent work. I'm sure I'd learn a lot, and it may not be bad to have their name on my resume. However I think I'd need a substantial increase in pay to warrant working for an agency again, where your hours are closely watched. Another offer is for $130k at a company that deals with helping property management companies fill their buildings. This job seems chill as hell, everything seems extremely easy and I was warned during the interview that their only concern was that I'd be bored. Long term financial prospects seem questionable though, and I was told by the recruiter that 'this is the absolute best we can do, no BS'. Is it even worth trying to counter these companies (not my current one)? Maybe make some ridiculous demand? Or just tell them I can't do it? Feels good that I can trick this many people into believing that I'm a normal human being, though. Also seems like I'm in the minority for just interviewing for whatever, is there a downside to that?
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Mar 8, 2021 16:10
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I would turn down both jobs at those numbers. The first one I would decide what number I would accept and add a little. Like if you'd accept for $150K ask for $165K. The second one I would just decline. I'd have declined it the moment they offered it couched in take-it-or-leave-it language. That company sucks. There is no warrant for optimism that if you jump your new boss would be better than your current boss. More likely not, and there's some risk of them turning out to be even worse. That's not a factor in this decision.
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Mar 8, 2021 16:20
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mainly interviewing is a time suck and stressful for a lot of people and if you need to interview to be validated you should probably  I originally wrote out some stuff but fundamentally it doesn't sound like you know what you want other than someone to want you, so figure that out first. If the only purpose of these interviews is validation, then you've succeeded, go back to you relatively chill job and good health insurance, and be happy. If you have another real purpose or desire, I suggest you figure it out and tell people, or else nobody is going to be able to give advice.
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Mar 8, 2021 16:20
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It is always worth countering if a higher salary would make you happier, and more importantly, if it would lead you to making a move. It sounds like you're not particularly compelled to make a change to either of those companies for a $10k raise, but what if it was $20k? $30k? You don't have to justify your reasoning, you already have offers in hands. All you have to do is send an email with some niceties and "after careful consideration of the job responsibilities I would accept the offer at $x" and see what comes back. If they cut you loose for negotiating, congrats, you saved yourself from working for business tyrants. If they get back to you with another number (even if it's the same number), congrats again, you have new information and maybe even a better prospect.
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Mar 8, 2021 16:21
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I don't think those amounts are worth a move unless you had some compelling non comp reason. There's always risk changing jobs and the extra effort getting acclimated. Def try countering with an amount that would be a no brainer upgrade. If nothing else then just for the experience negotiating. I don't think interviewing a lot is bad. Most people have the opposite problem of never getting out there. You seem pretty chill about it, so I'm also guessing it's not a huge drain emotionally.
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Mar 8, 2021 16:23
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This guy has a senior manager title making senior manager comp working 35 hours a week, and is looking to jump ship? For $10k more? 35 hours per week for that kind of comp would be worth way more than that to me.
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Mar 8, 2021 16:39
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Inner Light posted:This guy has a senior manager title making senior manager comp working 35 hours a week, and is looking to jump ship? For $10k more?
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Mar 8, 2021 16:43
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I’m not really looking to jump ship unless those offers get WAY better. But ultimately what I do isn’t rocket surgery so I’m afraid to ask for something truly stupid like $165k as nice as that would be...
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Mar 8, 2021 16:49
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stellers bae posted:I’m not really looking to jump ship unless those offers get WAY better. But ultimately what I do isn’t rocket surgery so I’m afraid to ask for something truly stupid like $165k as nice as that would be... walk me through what the downside is for this
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Mar 8, 2021 16:50
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:walk me through what the downside is for this Yeah, fair enough. Is it still gauche to negotiate via email? I'm busy today and so don't want to call, aka, I'm scared to do this via phone
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Mar 8, 2021 16:54
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"Don't accept a counteroffer" is a rule like "Don't name a number": It's useful as a novice who is still figuring out how to play Capitalism The Game, and you can break it once you have more understanding of how the game is played. Naming a number has a bunch of nuanced details: Do you name a number early on in the process or later? (Early on lets you disqualify employers quicker and save your time. Later lets you persuade the employer you are worth the number you are quoting) Do you name a high realistic number, or do you shoot for the moon? (High realistic has a high probability that you will be offered exactly that. Shooting for the moon will let you know how high you can go with that particular employer if they don't drop you) Do you name a number or do you name a range of numbers? (lol you name a number you dummy) A huge amount of the conversation's trajectory will be determined by how you open up with these decisions on naming a number. Getting any of them disadvantageous to you puts your entire rest of a negotiation on the back foot, with someone who has done this more than once and does it as part of their job description. They will be more comfortable with this responsibility than you will for some time. Alternatively you can shut the gently caress up and make them name a number first. It's almost assuredly not going to get you the best possible outcome that the most skilled negotiator could get. It's probably going to get you better than a median outcome, and if you're gonna gently caress up naming a number, it's going to get you a better outcome than that. Once you're not grossly underpaid for your work and start getting your head above water, you can more confidently start negotiating and turning down offers. This lets you gently caress up at naming a number and put the negotiated outcome on a bad course, but your BATNA is still good. Same deal with don't accept a counteroffer. Probably not the best strategy, but it's easy to understand, easy to execute, and is a good place to start.
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Mar 8, 2021 16:55
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stellers bae posted:Yeah, fair enough. Some people dgaf others might be offput (or not want to do it because they can't apply emotional leverage as easily) If you're scared then you must do it on the phone. Personal growth.
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Mar 8, 2021 17:17
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I think Never Accept a Counteroffer (from your current employer, I assume we mean) is a way more consistently reliable rule than Never Say a Number.
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Mar 8, 2021 18:00
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Eric the Mauve posted:I think Never Accept a Counteroffer (from your current employer, I assume we mean) is a way more consistently reliable rule than Never Say a Number. I agree, but you can make it work, with employment contracts for example
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Mar 8, 2021 18:25
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Hey, I could use some advice on how to deal with a hiring manager that is refusing to move forward without having a range for salary. The role itself is an entry level fully remote engineering position using some AI/Natural Language Processing tools that didn't exist a year ago, but I have some tangentially applicable experience with similar tools in the same niche. The company is a global staffing/recruitment firm, so they are well informed on what should be market rate for this role. The interviewer gave me a pretty comprehensive list of benefits, but doesn't have a lot of the technical details for the job, beyond what bullet points they were given to recruit for this role. My gut is telling me that there are no right moves to make in negotiating with someone more experienced when the information disparity is this high, but walking away is a boring solution so I might as well try. Any suggestions on what tactic I should take? Do what Beefeater1980 said earlier and state a high anchor and immediately undercut it? Try to get more technical details about the project, so I can gauge it against salaries for similar jobs? Tenik fucked around with this message at 01:17 on Mar 9, 2021 |
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Mar 9, 2021 01:00
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Tenik posted:Hey, I could use some advice on how to deal with a hiring manager that is refusing to move forward without having a range for salary. The role itself is an entry level fully remote engineering position using some AI/Natural Language Processing tools that didn't exist a year ago, but I have some tangentially applicable experience with similar tools in the same niche. The company is a global staffing/recruitment firm, so they are well informed on what should be market rate for this role. The interviewer gave me a pretty comprehensive list of benefits, but doesn't have a lot of the technical details for the job, beyond what bullet points they were given to recruit for this role. Maybe try door three. If the job is posted as available in Colorado they have to post a range for the position. Ask them for the range per that law? might not work but it also could.
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Mar 9, 2021 01:04
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Do you have a job now? Your best alternative is going to inform the decision. If you're currently employed and decently satisfied you might want to just walk. Staffing firm + entry level + this behavior has bad time written all over it even after you are in the position. Even to the extent of a bait+switch where you're sitting there working on a derelict CRUD app for below market pay. If you don't have a job, or even a bad offer is a big upgrade then maybe you pick a high but reasonable amount. Same if you want to break into that particular field, know the position is credible and just need the 1-2 years on paper to bounce elsewhere.
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Mar 9, 2021 01:36
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Threw out some super high ball numbers to those offers yesterday and they said they're looking at it and will get back to me. Will be interesting to see what I learn here!spwrozek posted:Maybe try door three. If the job is posted as available in Colorado they have to post a range for the position. Ask them for the range per that law? might not work but it also could. I've heard firms get around this by posting ridiculous ranges, like '$56,000-240,000' for everyone that's ever looked at an IDE at work.
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Mar 9, 2021 16:14
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stellers bae posted:Threw out some super high ball numbers to those offers yesterday and they said they're looking at it and will get back to me. Will be interesting to see what I learn here! Well that is a bummer. Good plan though on the high ball number!
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Mar 9, 2021 17:32
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spwrozek posted:Maybe try door three. If the job is posted as available in Colorado they have to post a range for the position. Ask them for the range per that law? might not work but it also could. Xguard86 posted:Do you have a job now? Your best alternative is going to inform the decision. Thanks for the advice! I ended up going with Xguard's second suggestion, since I'm not in a great position right now. Also, for anyone else in a situation like me, I waited a day and the company accidentally sent me a mass automated recruiting DM on LinkedIn which revealed their BATNA, so waiting a bit to reply could be very useful.
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Mar 9, 2021 19:43
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Property management place said they’d do $130k with a $20k signing bonus, and that they still had to work out the details of when it’d be paid ($10k now and $10k “later” allegedly). Obviously that would all need to be in writing or it isn’t worth poo poo, but it doesn’t sound worth going for even if it were all paid up front honestly. Time to decline?
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Mar 9, 2021 19:57
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c'mon man
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Mar 9, 2021 20:03
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:c'mon man All I care about is money and chill honestly. Just trying to find the right mix
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Mar 9, 2021 20:11
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:c'mon man
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Mar 9, 2021 20:22
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stellers bae posted:All I care about is money and chill honestly. Just trying to find the right mix You're pulling in 138K a year including your annual bonus, plus excellent benefits, working 35 hours a week at a large financially stable company, and the only downside is a "below average" boss. You want to leave for a job with less cash compensation (signing bonus is not an annual bonus), dubious financial stability, and unknown work environment? Like he said KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:c'mon man
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Mar 9, 2021 20:25
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stellers bae posted:Property management place said they’d do $130k with a $20k signing bonus, and that they still had to work out the details of when it’d be paid ($10k now and $10k “later” allegedly). Obviously that would all need to be in writing or it isn’t worth poo poo, but it doesn’t sound worth going for even if it were all paid up front honestly. Not outright decline, but "sorry but this can only work for me at a salary of $160K" (or whatever you decide is the minimum you're happy with) and let them decline. Though as I said, I would have made an exception to my usual rule and outright declined that particular company in the first place. They sound shady honestly. e: honestly I'm not psychic and could be way off base but your posts read to me like what you're mainly in this for is the satisfaction of surprising the boss you don't like with your resignation.
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Mar 9, 2021 20:28
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I thanked them for trying to accommodate me but restated my need to be at $150k due to differences in bonus and insurance costs. My current boss isn't that bad, I guess I'm just a compulsive job hopper since it's helped move me from $75k/yr in Feb 2019 to $138k w/ cash bonus today. But as everyone said this one just doesn't make sense currently.
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Mar 9, 2021 21:54
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Eric the Mauve posted:Not outright decline, but "sorry but this can only work for me at a salary of $160K" (or whatever you decide is the minimum you're happy with) and let them decline. Doesn't everyone fantasize about the shock/dismay their leaving is going to cause though? Especially if you don't like your boss.
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Mar 9, 2021 22:45
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I mean, when I was a lot more immature I cared. Now it's simply a business decision.
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Mar 9, 2021 22:51
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Chaotic Flame posted:Doesn't everyone fantasize about the shock/dismay their leaving is going to cause though? Especially if you don't like your boss. I felt bad when I quit  Yes, I know, it's just business and all that, but I feel bad for the people that 1). pulled for me to join their team and 2). have to pick up the slack while I get backfilled
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Mar 9, 2021 23:09
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Zarin posted:I felt bad when I quit This is the company's fault, not yours. If the company can't provide enough headcount to cover when they're short on manpower, then gently caress 'em. Managers that try to guilt-trip employees into not quitting / not staying home when sick / working overtime are assholes.
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Mar 10, 2021 00:36
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Chaotic Flame posted:Doesn't everyone fantasize about the shock/dismay their leaving is going to cause though? Especially if you don't like your boss. Only once in an environment that was really toxic. As much as if saddens me, me leaving didn’t change a thing. Although after a year or so 2 people got terminated and 3 left after which they disbanded the whole team. It’s a great reminder that everyone is replacable no matter how much you think you’re not. After that I’ve always hoped my coworkers won’t be inconvenienced too much by me leaving. That never plays a role in making the decision though.
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Mar 10, 2021 01:16
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:This is the company's fault, not yours. If the company can't provide enough headcount to cover when they're short on manpower, then gently caress 'em. Because we pay people to just sit around? I really don't understand your point. if someone leaves the team is always going to be in a pinch until you can get a temp, hire a consultant, or back fill. The work doesn't stop. Chaotic Flame posted:Doesn't everyone fantasize about the shock/dismay their leaving is going to cause though? Especially if you don't like your boss. I guess I have only had cool bosses and left because it was best for me. They all were great to work for with great teams so I was bummed to move on a little.
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Mar 10, 2021 04:10
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spwrozek posted:I guess I have only had cool bosses and left because it was best for me. They all were great to work for with great teams so I was bummed to move on a little. wow, i can't even imagine this being my experience
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Mar 10, 2021 04:36
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spwrozek posted:Because we pay people to just sit around? I really don't understand your point. if someone leaves the team is always going to be in a pinch until you can get a temp, hire a consultant, or back fill. The work doesn't stop. There's work and then there's work. A team that's staffed to barely meet the absolutely mandatory parts of the team's obligations will be wrecked if anyone takes time off for any purpose. A team that is not that tightly-resourced will have more slack, as when someone isn't available, people who are working on less-critical stuff (still useful, still worth doing, but not absolutely mandatory in the shortest time horizon) can be reallocated. Companies have a bad habit of aiming for the former level of staffing, which works great for them (lower immediate costs, and the long-term effects of only doing the most critical stuff take a long time to show up)...until someone isn't available for any number of reasons, and suddenly the team implodes. But that's not the fault of the people on the team.
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Mar 10, 2021 04:50
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I think we will just have to disagree.
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Mar 10, 2021 05:19
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spwrozek posted:I guess I have only had cool bosses and left because it was best for me. They all were great to work for with great teams so I was bummed to move on a little. Mostly same. I’ve had the bad ones I was happy to leave, but that’s only a couple jobs. Usually leaving is bittersweet.
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Mar 10, 2021 13:49
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