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Wanda tells her Vision that he is made out of the part of her that is the Mind Stone, and the Mind Stone was what was used to animate Vision originally, so it's likely that White Vision needs something from the Mind Stone or Wanda to be "complete".
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Mar 10, 2021 19:38
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Old Kentucky Shark posted:I don't think Wanda would have been okay with the uses that Hayward (or the US government in general) would want to put Vision to, so that plan was basically a nonstarter from the get-go. He's the original body, has his memories restored, and says, "I am Vision" before flying away. I think the show is leading us to believe that he is as close to the original Vision as you can get, and Wanda would very much like to know him. Or at least would definitely have liked to when she showed up at Sword headquarters before creating the Hex. And now I'm remembering that, when she was there, Hayward implied to Wanda that she could resurrect Vision, and she said she couldn't or wouldn't (I forget which). But he maybe could have explained what he was looking for a little better. Hmmm.
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Mar 10, 2021 19:38
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Junkenstein posted:Thanks to this thread I found out that Captain Midlands exists. I thought that Union Jack was the British Captain America equivalent. Captain Midlands has really done me. Union Jack is the British equivalent of Cap, which surprises many people who think - not unreasonably - that it's Captain Britain (which, just to add to the confusion, is actually the case in the Ultimate universe). The Super Soldier Serum is Marvel's metaphor for the atomic bomb; many people were working on it to various degrees of success, America got there first and best with the aid of European scientists fleeing the Nazis. However, 
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Mar 10, 2021 19:43
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BrianWilly posted:...Or, alternatively, instead of accusing people who had complaints about the show of being Puritanical women-burners which is tragically not even the weirdest thing you've said in this thread I think the show found a pretty decent middle ground. The only person who actively approves of what Wanda did is Ralph Bohner and he was clearly doing that to make Wanda uncertain that she was doing the right thing. Even at the end Monica doesn't approve of what Wanda did. She empathizes with Wanda. She gets why Wanda did what she did. And Monica was also clearly hoping to open/keep open some lines of communication with Wanda for the future. The thing I take issue with is the "Wanda should have suffered/been punished more." And within the show, I don't really see how that would have been better than what we got. The whole point of punishment is to extinguish a type of behavior. Don't play in the street or you'll get a spanking. But as far as I can tell, Wanda is already at the "extinguish behavior" point. She already doesn't want to do that horrifying poo poo to another town. It's why she's gone off to the middle of nowhere to study the magic book and work on her magic. And for my part one reason I like Marvel better than DC is that many characters don't fit perfectly into the Hero or Villain categories.
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Mar 10, 2021 19:51
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, there might instead be a middle ground between Wanda being a sympathetic character who deserves understanding, and the fact that Wanda's treatment of her victims was also objectively horrible and inexcusable.
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thrawn527 posted:He's the original body, has his memories restored, and says, "I am Vision" before flying away. I think the show is leading us to believe that he is as close to the original Vision as you can get, and Wanda would very much like to know him. Or at least would definitely have liked to when she showed up at Sword headquarters before creating the Hex. It may have also helped encourage a calm, reasonable discussion if he DIDN'T show her his dissected body being monstrously torn apart, organs being ripped out, bonesaw on the skull, etc. Like, just show her a view of the iVision in the case, tell her his damage was less than they thought, they fixed him up and he's fully functional and just needs a jumpstart and he thinks she might be able to do it. Like a person in a coma, rather than a nazi autopsy with organs in jars and poo poo.
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Mar 10, 2021 19:52
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Jedit posted:Union Jack is the British equivalent of Cap, which surprises many people who think - not unreasonably - that it's Captain Britain (which, just to add to the confusion, is actually the case in the Ultimate universe). The Super Soldier Serum is Marvel's metaphor for the atomic bomb; many people were working on it to various degrees of success, America got there first and best with the aid of European scientists fleeing the Nazis. However, And Captain Britain is now Betsy Braddock, who used to be Psylocke, and was a white woman whose soul got put into an Asian ninja's body (but is no longer because HOO-BOY) and now pals around with Jubilee, Rogue, Gambit, Rictor, Apocalypse, and Jubilee's son Shogo, whom she adopted after she lost her powers and became a vampire (but is no longer).
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Mar 10, 2021 19:54
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Technowolf posted:And Captain Britain is now Betsy Braddock, who used to be Psylocke, and was a white woman whose soul got put into an Asian ninja's body (but is no longer because HOO-BOY) and now pals around with Jubilee, Rogue, Gambit, Rictor, Apocalypse, and Jubilee's son Shogo, whom she adopted after she lost her powers and became a vampire (but is no longer). Wait...Apocalypse is a good guy now? I know Rogue got control of her powers a while back, so I assume she and Gambit are in an actual relationship now? Is Jubilee still depowered? Is Kitty Pryde still a pirate, for that matter?
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Mar 10, 2021 19:56
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Technowolf posted:And Captain Britain is now Betsy Braddock, who used to be Psylocke, and was a white woman whose soul got put into an Asian ninja's body (but is no longer because HOO-BOY) and now pals around with Jubilee, Rogue, Gambit, Rictor, Apocalypse, and Jubilee's son Shogo, whom she adopted after she lost her powers and became a vampire (but is no longer). Wot? I know about Psylocke with Kwannon's body but my knowledge of the X-Verse stops about 10 years ago. Last things I remember with the X are Sentinels killing Nightcrawler (god I loved arsehole Namor being an X-Man), World War Hulk, Dark X-Men and Phoenix Force sharing X-Men. I have a feeling I am far behind. Is Gambit still wearing the 90's trench coat and creeping on Rogue? Also.... Jubilee was a vampire? Did Blade pop up? Any more news on the Blade reboot series? I miss me some Blade.
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Mar 10, 2021 20:04
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tsob posted:Wait...Apocalypse is a good guy now? I know Rogue got control of her powers a while back, so I assume she and Gambit are in an actual relationship now? Is Jubilee still depowered? Is Kitty Pryde still a pirate, for that matter? 1) Sort of. Big A's whole deal has been retconned to trying to prepare Earth for Yet Another Extra-Dimensional Invasion. And he's no longer the first mutant, just the oldest one around. (I think his wife is supposed to be older than him, but she had to stay behind in the alternate dimension to fight the demons or something. I haven't gotten to X of Swords yet.) 2) Yep. 3) Nope. They're undoing the whole "Depowered Mutants" thing. Usually by getting into a fight with Apocalypse, dying, and then getting resurrected. Because mutants can just resurrect people now. 4) Yes. She's head of the Marauders, a group that travels the globe helping mutants that can't get to the mutant island paradise of Krakoa, the Living Island, the normal way - through magic Biotech portals grown from seeds.
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Mar 10, 2021 20:05
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Everyone posted:The thing I take issue with is the "Wanda should have suffered/been punished more." And within the show, I don't really see how that would have been better than what we got. The whole point of punishment is to extinguish a type of behavior. Don't play in the street or you'll get a spanking. But as far as I can tell, Wanda is already at the "extinguish behavior" point. She already doesn't want to do that horrifying poo poo to another town. It's why she's gone off to the middle of nowhere to study the magic book and work on her magic. Except Wanda immediately does it to Agnes and explicitly says she'll keep doing it until it's convenient to go grab Agnes when she needs her then walks off to read an evil book which presumably isn't going to reinforce great habits in regards to ethical use of powers. Wanda gets to extract her justice on Agnes but the towns people have to settle for glares when she leaves because they are powerless which is actually pretty realistic in regards to who can afford justice maybe the ending is good now that I think about it 
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Mar 10, 2021 20:09
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the story would have been powerfully lame if we had to sit through a montage of Wanda shaking hands and saying sorry to every person in Westview. Hopefully we get a Daredevil debut when Wanda has to defend against the mind-bogglingly massive class action lawsuit.
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Mar 10, 2021 20:13
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I'm laughing my rear end at being considered a misogynist torture sadist for not liking some parts of the ending.  Its Rinaldo posted:Wanda gets to extract her justice on Agnes but the towns people have to settle for glares when she leaves because they are powerless which is actually pretty realistic. Thus I'm waiting to see if the people in charge of the MCU decide to bring Westview in the future. The town has turned into grounds for a new villain to be made, or like someone else said, an anti-super powered sentiment to grow.
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Mar 10, 2021 20:16
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The show makes the point that the people under her spell are conscious and suffering when they could have just as easily had them wake up as if no time had passed wondering where they were. I don't think we're supposed to consider Wanda redeemed just yet, otherwise they wouldn't have portrayed her actions as so monstrous. If she's meant to be a Phase 4 villain at some point I think getting her there with the WandaVision miniseries was more interesting than her just showing up later saying she's sad about Vision dying. I personally hope new Vision isn't in DS2 and they keep them apart for a little while. Dude flew off into space, maybe we'll see him show up in Captain Marvel 2.
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Mar 10, 2021 20:26
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They could of just had a scene where someone tries to put on their glasses or something and notice they don't need them. Like no apology but some reconciliation.
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Mar 10, 2021 20:29
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Desperado Bones posted:Thus I'm waiting to see if the people in charge of the MCU decide to bring Westview in the future. The town has turned into grounds for a new villain to be made, or like someone else said, an anti-super powered sentiment to grow. Or just a super-powered villain. Whatever Wanda was doing, she also created (or at least embodied) sentient beings and imparted superpowers to them. Monica just...has powers now? And that was totally unintentional, so future writers could go wherever they wanted with that. tsob posted:Wanda tells her Vision that he is made out of the part of her that is the Mind Stone, and the Mind Stone was what was used to animate Vision originally, so it's likely that White Vision needs something from the Mind Stone or Wanda to be "complete". As loathe as I now am to compliment Joss Whedon, this is a concept he explores interestingly in the later half of Dollhouse. The central premise is that crazy scifi tech can design and print totally fabricated personas into living people's brains. Paul, a rogue government agent and good guy, gets brain-fried by one of the villains and winds up as a vegetable. The solution the tech whiz arrives at is to design a simulacrum of Paul's original personality and program it such that it functions with the intact parts of his brain. The result is a not-Paul who is *kind of* him, but missing some key metaphysical elements. The "original" pre-damage Paul exists as an intact copy on a hard drive, and Paul's actual body merely contains the facsimile.
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Mar 10, 2021 20:47
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Xealot posted:Or just a super-powered villain. Whatever Wanda was doing, she also created (or at least embodied) sentient beings and imparted superpowers to them. Monica just...has powers now? And that was totally unintentional, so future writers could go wherever they wanted with that.  Gotta agree with that and sounds plausible.
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Mar 10, 2021 20:57
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Xealot posted:Or just a super-powered villain. Whatever Wanda was doing, she also created (or at least embodied) sentient beings and imparted superpowers to them. Monica just...has powers now? And that was totally unintentional, so future writers could go wherever they wanted with that. Fred and illyria in angel had some elements of this.
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Mar 10, 2021 20:58
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tsob posted:Wait...Apocalypse is a good guy now? I know Rogue got control of her powers a while back, so I assume she and Gambit are in an actual relationship now? Is Jubilee still depowered? Is Kitty Pryde still a pirate, for that matter?
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Mar 10, 2021 21:00
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Its Rinaldo posted:Except Wanda immediately does it to Agnes and explicitly says she'll keep doing it until it's convenient to go grab Agnes when she needs her then walks off to read an evil book which presumably isn't going to reinforce great habits in regards to ethical use of powers. I feel like people are giving Wanda too much flak for taking and studying the Darkhold. Sure, it looks evil as hell and we know it's bad news, but all Wanda as a character knows about it is that it contains a whole chapter about who she really is and the true nature of her power, and that one of the most powerful magic users she's encountered studied it herself. Given those facts, and Wanda's stated mission to better understand and control her power, it would've been irresponsible of her not to take the book with her and give it a look.
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Mar 10, 2021 21:42
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Technowolf posted:And Captain Britain is now Betsy Braddock, who used to be Psylocke, and was a white woman whose soul got put into an Asian ninja's body (but is no longer because HOO-BOY) and now pals around with Jubilee, Rogue, Gambit, Rictor, Apocalypse, and Jubilee's son Shogo, whom she adopted after she lost her powers and became a vampire (but is no longer). Wait, Psylocke is a british woman's soul in an asian woman's body? I thought she was just a british asian woman! God drat the minutia of 90s comics is so freaking weird.
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Mar 10, 2021 21:55
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Sanguinia posted:Wait, Psylocke is a british woman's soul in an asian woman's body? I thought she was just a british asian woman! God drat the minutia of 90s comics is so freaking weird. I can’t believe they not only did this, but then decided it was a good idea to repeat that plot with Ultimate Psylocke.
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Mar 10, 2021 22:09
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The more I'm reminded of weird bullshit comic books did to explain or justify broken continuity, the more I appreciate the elegance of "multiverse" explanations for that kind of poo poo. Some comic writers decided Psylocke would've been more interesting as an East Asian woman. Fine, sounds good. "How do we explain how she WAS white and now ISN'T white?" Do....do you have to? I'd much rather just accept the contrivance of a portal opening over London, and out pops Earth-617 Betsy Braddock. She's Asian there. No explanation.
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Mar 10, 2021 22:12
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Comic books are mostly really dumb.
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Mar 10, 2021 22:19
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Sanguinia posted:Wait, Psylocke is a british woman's soul in an asian woman's body? I thought she was just a british asian woman! God drat the minutia of 90s comics is so freaking weird. she's been white again for the past few years, and now the Psylocke name is being used by the original owner of her Asian body. only took Marvel close to 30 years to realize that the race-swapping wasn't the best idea
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Mar 10, 2021 22:22
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i kind of suspect the inelegance of the ending is because doctor strange 2 will make wanda's arc treading the exact same ground: dealing with trauma and the ways in which she has harmed people. with any luck, it will be emotionally resolved by her committing to stopping the cycle of abuse or doubling down and going fully villainous. wandavision will get some references but will be inessential to understand doctor strange's broader narrative. this works okay for a broader expanded universe where there's a general expectation that audiences will stick around but it doesn't lend itself well to a self-contained television series. QuoProQuid fucked around with this message at 22:41 on Mar 10, 2021 |
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Mar 10, 2021 22:24
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FYI Matt Shakman, the WandaVision showrunner, did an interview with Sepinwall where he mostly talked about sitcom history, but also addressed the ending:quote:There’s been some audience pushback regarding the scenes in the finale where we realize the extent of the psychological torture that Wanda put the people of Westview through. They felt the show was maybe letting Wanda off the hook too easily for enslaving them. Do you feel like she faced appropriate consequences for those actions? https://www.rollingstone.com/tv/tv-features/wandavision-director-matt-shakman-sitcom-interview-1139129/ This explanation pretty much satisfies me, but I didn't really have a problem with most aspects of the finale to begin with, so YMMV
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Mar 10, 2021 22:36
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The expectations for writers and directors to do a post mortem is an interesting development. In the past, only the Russos and Markus/McFeely have really had to do it.
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Mar 10, 2021 22:57
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ShakeZula posted:FYI Matt Shakman, the WandaVision showrunner, did an interview with Sepinwall where he mostly talked about sitcom history, but also addressed the ending: I doubt it will satisfy most people in the thread because pretty much all of those points have been raised over the course of the discussion. The only one that's been hit somewhat lightly is "She even tried to let them go, but she backed down when she saw her children and husband dying in front of her and she wasn't mentally prepared for that yet," and I know I mentioned that at least once.
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Mar 10, 2021 23:01
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You know Wanda isn't forgiven for what she's done because the language of these films is written in big block letters and no one came up to her and said "we forgive you."
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Mar 10, 2021 23:11
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What's weird to me is all those freed villagers saw the Hex was destroyed but they hung around to give Wanda the stink eye instead of grabbing their kids and getting the gently caress out of there as quickly as possible
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Mar 10, 2021 23:12
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ShakeZula posted:FYI Matt Shakman, the WandaVision showrunner, did an interview with Sepinwall where he mostly talked about sitcom history, but also addressed the ending: Oh poo poo, I didn't know he directed the "Charlie Work" episode of Always Sunny! And the whole "Nightman Cometh" musical! While I'm not nearly as up in arms as some of the people in this thread, I think I'm satisfied seeing that he had thought about these concerns and addressed them in the process of making the show. His choices as a director may not be to your liking, but it would've been another thing entirely if it hadn't crossed his mind at all that Wanda was sort of being let off the hook. At least, it's nothing so egregious as Game of Thrones's "Dany kind of forgot about the Iron Fleet" excuse
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Mar 10, 2021 23:13
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Its Rinaldo posted:Except Wanda immediately does it to Agnes and explicitly says she'll keep doing it until it's convenient to go grab Agnes when she needs her then walks off to read an evil book which presumably isn't going to reinforce great habits in regards to ethical use of powers. The thing with Agatha is that it really wasn't even about justice. It's a little bit about revenge for the poo poo Agatha tried to pull on Wanda, but I think it's mostly because right at that moment Wanda had three basic options: 1) Kill Agatha 2) Let Agatha go (knowing that Agatha will keep coming after her) 3) Do what she did, which renders Agatha mostly harmless and leaves her alive (which keeps her around as a potential resources for Wanda and also means that Wanda doesn't have to execute her) The idea of "turn her over to the FBI after putting her in a runed cell" is likely unworkable. We really don't know how the whole rune thing fully works, but I'd assume that there's some pretty serious limitations to it or why wasn't it used in Dr. Strange. Also, Agatha calls it a "basic protection spell" so there's probably plenty of ways around it. Meanwhile, even assuming the rune thing would work, I'm not sure that Agatha could be charged with any crime by US law enforcement. Cage Kicker posted:the story would have been powerfully lame if we had to sit through a montage of Wanda shaking hands and saying sorry to every person in Westview. Hopefully we get a Daredevil debut when Wanda has to defend against the mind-bogglingly massive class action lawsuit. I wouldn't hold out much hope for Daredevil using legal "wizardry" to help Wanda. I mean, a lawsuit indicates that they want monetary damages, so it'd probably be something like: Wanda: How much do you want? Westview legal team: $3.892 million dollars. A million dollars for each person you so cruelly victimized. Wanda: (turns some official structure that's at least twice Vision's mass into Vibranium) Keep the change. apatheticman posted:They could of just had a scene where someone tries to put on their glasses or something and notice they don't need them. That would be even worse. It would send the message that going through Wanda's Sitcom Hell was somehow beneficial to them in the end. Like, "I spent months screaming inside my brain and suffering Wanda Maximoff's nightmares as I played a puppet role. I couldn't even see my own children. But now I don't have to spring for LASIK so it's all good." Xealot posted:Or just a super-powered villain. Whatever Wanda was doing, she also created (or at least embodied) sentient beings and imparted superpowers to them. Monica just...has powers now? And that was totally unintentional, so future writers could go wherever they wanted with that. Maybe it'll turn out that Ralph was Jimmy's protected witness and his original name was James Sanders Hell, it could be anybody. Let's recall that the Hex rolled back over everyone in town when Wanda set it end. So everyone in town has effectively gone into and out of the Hex at least twice. Xealot posted:As loathe as I now am to compliment Joss Whedon, this is a concept he explores interestingly in the later half of Dollhouse. The central premise is that crazy scifi tech can design and print totally fabricated personas into living people's brains. Paul, a rogue government agent and good guy, gets brain-fried by one of the villains and winds up as a vegetable. The solution the tech whiz arrives at is to design a simulacrum of Paul's original personality and program it such that it functions with the intact parts of his brain. The result is a not-Paul who is *kind of* him, but missing some key metaphysical elements. The "original" pre-damage Paul exists as an intact copy on a hard drive, and Paul's actual body merely contains the facsimile. I could see something like that happening and it gives a potential interaction with Wanda that isn't lost love/romantic/etc. Everyone fucked around with this message at 23:24 on Mar 10, 2021 |
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Mar 10, 2021 23:20
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The reason why Agatha's punishment is justified is because she killed that dog.
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Mar 10, 2021 23:44
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I said come in! posted:The reason why Agatha's punishment is justified is because she killed that dog. come on, that was a bad dog. that dog got off lightly.
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Mar 10, 2021 23:58
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Was the dog real or was it another Wanda construct like the boys?
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Mar 11, 2021 00:20
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It seems more likely to be an Agatha construct than a Wanda one, given she had the doghouse all ready to go before Wanda was even aware the boys had a dog when Wanda was never in control of her.
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Mar 11, 2021 00:31
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Hobo Clown posted:Was the dog real or was it another Wanda construct like the boys? I assumed it was transmogrified insect like the bird we see later.
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Mar 11, 2021 00:55
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Everyone posted:The thing with Agatha is that it really wasn't even about justice. It's a little bit about revenge for the poo poo Agatha tried to pull on Wanda, but I think it's mostly because right at that moment Wanda had three basic options: Death, freedom, or infinite mind torture prison seems like a poor set of options for containing a magic user criminal 
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Mar 11, 2021 01:02
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Mar 11, 2021 01:35
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Everyone posted:If Wanda and Strange are eventually allies in DS2 (which seems likely) Mordo would be kind of an incidental villain since together Wanda and Strange could stomp him like a magic roach. Figure Mordo will be mildly incidental in DS2 and be a full villain in DS3 after he gets some allies and takes a couple of levels in Magic Badass. Give Mordo an assault rifle. And the ability to summon ghost soldiers from every modern war. And also he just wants his BB.
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Mar 11, 2021 02:16
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